Traffic tickets and naturalization (threads merged)

[Jackolantern]

Political ties to questionable governments yes, speeding tickets no. They for the most part couldn't care less about speeding tickets in the US. That is why many people are advised not to bother writting them down on the N-400 by lawyers and even the INS when contacted. So one outside of the US is pointless to mention and serves no purpose.

I would still list them, so they can't use them against you later on to deny or revoke your citizenship by saying you lied on the application. Many people have found themselves in court having to defend their citizenship because USCIS said they failed to mention a ticket or arrest or some other little thing on their N-400. List the foreign tickets now, USCIS will almost certainly ignore them, and that should be the end of it. But don't list them, and they can become ammunition against you if USCIS ever finds out.

 

[Vorpal]

I would still list them, so they can't use them against you later on to deny or revoke your citizenship by saying you lied on the application. Many people have found themselves in court having to defend their citizenship because USCIS said they failed to mention a ticket or arrest or some other little thing on their N-400. List the foreign tickets now, USCIS will almost certainly ignore them, and that should be the end of it. But don't list them, and they can become ammunition against you if USCIS ever finds out.

What if the applicant lists the foreign tickets, and an IO demands proof of payment? Imagine having to contact the local motor vehicle authority in Czech Republic, Denmark, Holland, or any other foreign country and try to request proof of payment?

 

[Triple Citizen]

I totally agree. The word EVER in Part10.SectionD.Q16 basically offers no choice in my understanding. Mind you, English is not my mother tongue so I may be wrong!!!

I would still list them, so they can't use them against you later on to deny or revoke your citizenship by saying you lied on the application.

 

[Jackolantern]

What if the applicant lists the foreign tickets, and an IO demands proof of payment? Imagine having to contact the local motor vehicle authority in Czech Republic, Denmark, Holland, or any other foreign country and try to request proof of payment?

Better than having to later defend your citizenship in court.

But if you suggest omitting them from the application based on the assumption that they don't care about foreign tickets, that same assumption would also imply that if you listed them they wouldn't ask for proof of payment.

 

[Vorpal]

Better than having to later defend your citizenship in court.

But if you suggest omitting them from the application based on the assumption that they don't care about foreign tickets, that same assumption would also imply that if you listed them they wouldn't ask for proof of payment.

In an ideal situation with a clearly defined set of rules, they wouldn't care about foreign tickets. They also wouldn't demand proof of payment for minor offenses that don;t even come close to meeting the $500/DUI/DWI criteria; however, we constantly hear stories of applicants being demanded to show proof of payment for minor tickets, despite the fact that it clearly states in the "Guide to Naturalization" that no proof needs to be provided for tickets that don't meet the above-mentioned criteria.

Using this same example, what's to stop an IO from saying "Aha! 3 years ago, you got an illegal turn ticket in Cairo. A decision on your application cannot be made until you submit proof of payment." How does one even begin tracking down the Egyptian (or any other country's) motor vehicle authority, provided that you even speak their native language?

Personally (and this is a completely personal opinion, not a LEGAL one), I would only disclose tickets that were issued in the U.S. After all, we are applying to be AMERICAN citizens. If I was applying for citizenship in a country where the tickets in question were issued, and they had a provision to disclose traffic violations, then I'd disclose them.

Also, consider this for a moment. It's safe to say that many naturalization applicants received traffic tickets in their COBs prior to immigrating to the U.S. Does this also mean that an applicant who received and paid a ticket 20 years ago in his COB, came to the U.S. 15 years later (applied for naturalization 5 years after arriving in the U.S.) has to disclose a traffic ticket that he received ages before he/she even conceived the idea of immigrating to the U.S.?

 

[Triple Citizen]

For Part10.SecD.Q15 I answered Yes and mentioned that as a minor I stole guavas from someone else's orchard in Pakistan. What I committed was theft no doubt. I only mentioned it keeping in mind the miniscule possibility that I might have shared this story with someone who is now angry with me and for vindication has written a letter to USCIS informing them of this incident. This sounds funny, I know, but it was simply a risk I was not willing to take.

Also, consider this for a moment. It's safe to say that many naturalization applicants received traffic tickets in their COBs prior to immigrating to the U.S. Does this also mean that an applicant who received and paid a ticket 20 years ago in his COB, came to the U.S. 15 years later (applied for naturalization 5 years after arriving in the U.S.) has to disclose a traffic ticket that he received ages before he/she even conceived the idea of immigrating to the U.S.?

 

[Vorpal]

For Part10.SecD.Q15 I answered Yes and mentioned that as a minor I stole guavas from someone else's orchard in Pakistan. What I committed was theft no doubt. I only mentioned it keeping in mind the miniscule possibility that I might have shared this story with someone who is now angry with me and for vindication has written a letter to USCIS informing them of this incident. This sounds funny, I know, but it was simply a risk I was not willing to take.

That's right, I remember you mentioning this a couple of months ago. Perhaps I'll fess up to the written warning I got from a school crossing guard back in 5th grade for jaywalking!

The crossing guard, by the way, was one of my classmates on a serious power trip.

 

[Jackolantern]

In an ideal situation with a clearly defined set of rules, they wouldn't care about foreign tickets. They also wouldn't demand proof of payment for minor offenses that don;t even come close to meeting the $500/DUI/DWI criteria; however, we constantly hear stories of applicants being demanded to show proof of payment for minor tickets, despite the fact that it clearly states in the "Guide to Naturalization" that no proof needs to be provided for tickets that don't meet the above-mentioned criteria.

If that happens and the proof of payment can't be obtained, either submit the statement from the relevant authority saying such proof is no longer available, or get a lawyer to submit a statement saying they shouldn't care about the proof of that minor ticket and the legal reasoning why.

Personally (and this is a completely personal opinion, not a LEGAL one), I would only disclose tickets that were issued in the U.S. After all, we are applying to be AMERICAN citizens. If I was applying for citizenship in a country where the tickets in question were issued, and they had a provision to disclose traffic violations, then I'd disclose them.

Also, consider this for a moment. It's safe to say that many naturalization applicants received traffic tickets in their COBs prior to immigrating to the U.S. Does this also mean that an applicant who received and paid a ticket 20 years ago in his COB, came to the U.S. 15 years later (applied for naturalization 5 years after arriving in the U.S.) has to disclose a traffic ticket that he received ages before he/she even conceived the idea of immigrating to the U.S.?

What it boils down to is the fact that anything not disclosed can be used to take away your citizenship if they find out later. It is not based on what is practical or reasonable. USCIS or ICE is unlikely to proactively dig into your foreign past on an arbitrary basis. But if after citizenship you are arrested for a crime you didn't commit, and they have to drop the charges due to lack of evidence but they have convinced themselves that you are guilty, they will look for SOMETHING to use against you, and your immigration history provides a convenient source for them to dig up something for which they can say "you lied on the application". At that point, they may attempt to find anything against you in your country of birth, or in the countries they know you vacationed in (based on stamps in your passport or passenger manifests).

 

[Vorpal]

What it boils down to is the fact that anything not disclosed can be used to take away your citizenship if they find out later. It is not based on what is practical or reasonable. USCIS or ICE is unlikely to proactively dig into your foreign past on an arbitrary basis. But if after citizenship you are arrested for a crime you didn't commit, and they have to drop the charges due to lack of evidence but they have convinced themselves that you are guilty, they will look for SOMETHING to use against you, and your immigration history provides a convenient source for them to dig up something for which they can say "you lied on the application".

Believe me, I definitely see your point. If I found myself in such a situation, I'd just as easily get a competent attorney who would argue that a foreign summons bears no relevance to my American citizenship. Also, I somehow doubt that the local DA would scour my travel record, contact every nation I've ever visited, and request that they forward my driving records, request a copy of my naturalization file from the USCIS, find out that I didn't report a foreign traffic ticket, and THEN notify the USCIS that I lied on my applcation (that is, if said DA happens to be familiar with naturalization laws). I agree, there's always the possibility that it may happen, but I think one would be more likely to hit the MegaMillions. It would be a lot easier to bring immigration charges by photographing a naturalized citizen drinking a beer at a local bar and filing for denaturalization on the basis that the defendant is a habitual drunkard.

 

[Jackolantern]

If I found myself in such a situation, I'd just as easily get a competent attorney who would argue that a foreign summons bears no relevance to my American citizenship.

But that is not true; if you committed murder or terrorism or illegal drug dealing in a foreign country, you would be ineligible for US citizenship.

Also, I somehow doubt that the local DA would scour my travel record ...

The DA wouldn't do it directly; they'd tell ICE they suspect you of something, and ask them to scour your records. It happens more often than you think; I'll try to find a few court cases or articles later (for starters, this old link shows the AILA preparing for a class-action lawsuit about it: http://www.visalaw.com/98jan/3jan98.html). Once they decide to get you, they will go to extreme lengths to find something.

 

[Jackolantern]

Here is a better link:
http://www.aila.org/content/default.aspx?docid=3480

 

[Bobsmyth]

I doubt that anyone has ever been revoked citizenship based on not disclosing parking or speeding tickets alone on their application (something else must have triggered it). Then again, the government has enough power to do so. At least a legal recourse avenue exists to overcome such actions based most recently on the class action suit in Seattle.

 

[Jackolantern]

I highly doubt that anyone has ever been revoked citizenship based on not disclosing parking or speeding tickets alone on their application.

Did you read the link? Maybe actual revocation hasn't happened based on those reasons, but it has definitely been attempted.

 

[Vorpal]

But that is not true; if you committed murder or terrorism or illegal drug dealing in a foreign country, you would be ineligible for US citizenship.

This is true. However, a traffic infraction hardly carries the same weight asmurder and terrorism.

The DA wouldn't do it directly; they'd tell ICE they suspect you of something, and ask them to scour your records. It happens more often than you think; I'll try to find a few court cases or articles later (for starters, this old link shows the AILA preparing for a class-action lawsuit about it: http://www.visalaw.com/98jan/3jan98.html). Once they decide to get you, they will go to extreme lengths to find something.

I agree, if they really want to get you, they'll get you. It would be much easier for them to get you in a traditional way (i.e., planting drugs in the trunk of your car) than to even waste their time with getting ICE involved. Also, if they plant drugs in your car, the DA will get a conviction on his/her record, as opposed to revoking your citizenship and deporting you for lying on your N-400, for which he/she will get nothing.

 

[Bobsmyth]

Did you read the link? Maybe actual revocation hasn't happened based on those reasons, but it has definitely been attempted.

Yes, and even the CIS appeal was overruled by the courts:

http://www.ilw.com/immigdaily/cases/2000,0721-Gorbach.shtm

 

[Jackolantern]

This is true. However, a traffic infraction hardly carries the same weight asmurder and terrorism.

True, but my point was that an offense being foreign doesn't make it irrelevant. It just makes it more difficult to find out.

I agree, if they really want to get you, they'll get you. It would be much easier for them to get you in a traditional way (i.e., planting drugs in the trunk of your car) than to even waste their time with getting ICE involved.

At the time they arrested you, they would have thought that some real evidence would be found to seal your guilt, because they were already sure in their minds that you were guilty. Days or weeks or months later when a grand jury or judge or commissioner makes them drop the charges due to lack of evidence, it's a bit too late to frame you and get away with it easily.

 

[Vorpal]

True, but my point was that an offense being foreign doesn't make it irrelevant. It just makes it more difficult to find out.

The venue of an offense certainly doesn't make it irrelevant, as long as an offense really warrants denaturalization. As described in the links above, an unlisted traffic ticket is easily argued in court.

At the time they arrested you, they would have thought that some real evidence would be found to seal your guilt, because they were already sure in their minds that you were guilty. Days or weeks or months later when a grand jury or judge or commissioner makes them drop the charges due to lack of evidence, it's a bit too late to frame you and get away with it easily.

In this case, they have the police follow you, invent a reason to pull you over, and then plant the evidence. I've personally been pulled over and had my car searched for no reason at all, so it can definitely be done. In fact, in NYC, it's done on a regular basis.

 

[synn_r]

This whole Natz thing is getting me scared.....( and no I didn't do anything) but all this talk of framing and deportation and ICE... is making me really petrified and I am seriously considering pulling my packet... I think I just want to be a PR.

 

[Triple Citizen]

If you haven't done anything that makes you deportable, why the fear?

This whole Natz thing is getting me scared.....( and no I didn't do anything)

 

[synn_r]

If you haven't done anything that makes you deportable, why the fear?

Because I am scared that they will look at me for what my husband has done. Can I be deported for Marrying the wrong person? He is a USC by birth and he did some really awful things and to be honest I am scared that they will judge me for what he has done...

He is no terrorist or Murderer! But a bad person none the less!