How long to change job after GC

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dsatish said:
Thanks for the link. This should draw the curtains to this discussion. First of all, it is official information and secondly it explicitly says that the rights mentioned there are applicable for all types of permanent residents, including employment based. It very clearly says that once you become a PR, then there are no more sub categories (like employment based PR, family based PR etc).


Rights
To live permanently in the United States provided you do not commit any actions that would make you removable (deportable) under the immigration law (section 237, Immigration and Nationality Act).
To be employed in the United States at any legal work of your qualification and choosing.
To be protected by all of the laws of the United States, your state of residence and local jurisdictions.
To vote in local elections where United States Citizenship is not required. Click here for more details on voting.
Exceptions
Some jobs will be limited to United States Citizens because of security concerns.
You may not vote in elections limited to United States Citizens. Click here for more details on voting.


I also checked sec 237 which is regarding deportable aliens. no single word mentioned about changing employer after GC. if they really check you when you apply for the citizenship, i believe they have many other important things to check (criminal record, tax returns ...) than to figure out whether you change employer, or get a promotion after GC.

if we try to scare ourselves by researching the law, you probably can come up with another a hundred things besides the "intent" thing which make us deportable. e.g., the law says that by the time you obtained the F1 visa, you should not have the intent to emigrate to the US ... god, i can never demonstrate that.

if O.J. Simpson can enjoy his freedom by killing his wife, why should we worry about being deported just because we change employer?
 
gorf said:
Joef do you have a life? Because no one can post this much stuff and have healthy social interaction with other human beings.

This, perhaps, explains your way of arguing. Lack of social skills.

Plonk

gorf, You have a good point there. It is an interesting psychological quandary of a person who is obsessed with one single mode of communication. A friend explained the history behind naming the hockey target as "puck". In medivial times, old ladies used to sit in street side and talk about anything and everything. They would talk about things they knew about, and more so about things they had no clue about. Maybe, JoeF's psychlogical quandary has some bearance to the puck. Or, maybe more people concur with my calling of JoeF lovingly as the blabbering Joker.


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Vote Bush '04
 
zyu said:
I also checked sec 237 which is regarding deportable aliens. no single word mentioned about changing employer after GC. if they really check you when you apply for the citizenship, i believe they have many other important things to check (criminal record, tax returns ...) than to figure out whether you change employer, or get a promotion after GC.

if we try to scare ourselves by researching the law, you probably can come up with another a hundred things besides the "intent" thing which make us deportable. e.g., the law says that by the time you obtained the F1 visa, you should not have the intent to emigrate to the US ... god, i can never demonstrate that.

if O.J. Simpson can enjoy his freedom by killing his wife, why should we worry about being deported just because we change employer?

zyu, Good job analyzing sec 237.

Let's keep OJ out of this discussion. He is a good man, and is busy looking for his wife's killer in Florida's golf courses. :)


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Vote Bush '04
 
JoeF said:
blah blah blah

JoeF, Still cyber-stalking me? Just because I proved you wrong multiple times does not mean you take this personally and hang a gauntlet above my posts. You are proving what you are... a cyber-stalking, blabbering moron. Get a life.


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Vote Bush '04
 
Hi Guys,
Let's stop the never ending fight. We can concentrate more on the subject, because we can have more discussion on this and perhaps get a clear picture of the issue.
The beauty of any forum lies in sharing each other's experiences. That's how the I485 forums (especially Vermont) conduct their business and those forums are the most popular forums. In VSC I485 forum, one rarely sees this kind of fightings because people have matured there and developed the principle called "Give respect and Take Respect". Please don't try to throw the last solvo and prolong the fighting. It's time for some one to just call it quits. Different people have different perceptions of wh started this fighting, and that's why i don't want to name any one, lest my advise be treated as an attack against some one. I am sure that a proper self introspection will tell us what we should not have posted or should not have said about some one.
PS: On the ighter note, i would like to warn the bulls that Newton's third law of motion has entered this forum : Every force has an equal and opposite reaction.
 
Opinions

I think most of the persons on this board are representing how they intrepert the law. Guess what it does not matter, what matters is how CIS and if comes to that how immigration court will interpret the law. Even all the judges do not agree on single intrepretation of laws.

It all boils down to once capacity to handle the risk. As I see it, there is a "theortical" chance though very small of revocation of green card. I can not put a numerical figure on it, as I have no statistics but since I have not heard even a single case where a person has been deported because of job change I will say this chance is extremely small (IMHO). Now I ask this question should I get afraid by this chance?

In this sense both joef and dstaish are right. One thinks it is better to error on safety side and other thinks it is almost impossible to happen so lets move on. One thinks it is like a car accident which is uncommon but still frequent enough, other thinks it as a meteorite hitting you.

Question is what you feel? You need to answer this and live peacefully with your opinion.

IMHO I agree with dsatish that chances are very minimal and its very easy to play law in my favor even if I stay for 1 day with my employer. Also the legal cases I came to know as part of I485 processe, I have found INS to be quite reasonable in interpreting the laws (INS delays may not be so..:) ).

PS: If you are offended by "INS", then replace each occurrence by CIS or BCIS or USCIS or whatever is "accurately" right. What I feel is this kind of nitpicking shows either the person is very rigid or is a PhD...:)
 
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INSBeats2death said:
I think most of the persons on this board are representing how they intrepert the law. Guess what it does not matter, what matters is how CIS and if comes to that how immigration court will interpret the law. Even all the judges do not agree on single intrepretation of laws.

It all boils down to once capacity to handle the risk. As I see it, there is a "theortical" chance though very small of revocation of green card. I can not put a numerical figure on it, as I have no statistics but since I have not heard even a single case where a person has been deported because of job change I will say this chance is extremely small (IMHO). Now I ask this question should I get afraid by this chance?

In this sense both joef and dstaish are right. One thinks it is better to error on safety side and other thinks it is almost impossible to happen so lets move on. One thinks it is like a car accident which is uncommon but still frequent enough, other thinks it as a meteorite hitting you.

Question is what you feel? You need to answer this and live peacefully with your opinion.

IMHO I agree with dsatish that chances are very minimal and its very easy to play law in my favor even if I stay for 1 day with my employer. Also the legal cases I came to know as part of I485 processe, I have found INS to be quite reasonable in interpreting the laws (INS delays may not be so..:) ).

PS: If you are offended by "INS", then replace each occurrence by CIS or BCIS or USCIS or whatever is "accurately" right. What I feel is this kind of nitpicking shows either the person is very rigid or is a PhD...:)

That was a beautiful summary. That was exactly in my mind and that was what i was thinking of posting. You are absolutely right that in my opinion, the chances of deportation because of leaving the employer after 1 month is very remote. I wouldn't count on that day, though it is theoretically (well, you never know, may be practically) possible. Even if such a day comes, as some one has mentioned earlier, even a half brain lawyer can easily win the case for us in the appeals court. I als agree with some one else's suggestion that all you need to prove your intention is to report to duty atleast for a day after gettting the GC. After that the employment will continue based on your liking. If you don't lke the job, you can leave it and chose the job of your choice. If INS calls it as a fraud, your lawyer will call it as your right as a premanent resident to chose your job. You might be in problem only if your employer complains or if you leave any proof to suggest that you have decided to leave the employer even before getting the GC (well, even this does not stand good in AC21 era). The "intent" stuff is a old legal term which lost its steam after AC21 is enacted. Now one can have an "intention" of changing jobs at any time till he gets approval, and he can exercise his rights as a PR to change jobs after becoming a PR. So virtually, the only time, this "intent" stuff still applies is the time between you get your approval notice and the stamping.
 
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Joef,

Remember the "puck".... remember the "puck". :)



VOTE BUSH 2004
 
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How about the case like this.

One is trying to find new employer (for whatever reason, one can not work for the previous employer) and before one can find one, I-485 approved. If one can find new sponsor before I-485 approval, AC21 will apply. What will happen now? This looks like I-485 approval even creates trouble. It seems does not make sense.

Theoretically indefinetely is indefinetely, one day, one week, one month, one year, ten and hundred years make no difference. With AC21 in place shall we say, the "intend" at the time of filing makes more sense?
 
lisansw said:
How about the case like this.

One is trying to find new employer (for whatever reason, one can not work for the previous employer) and before one can find one, I-485 approved. If one can find new sponsor before I-485 approval, AC21 will apply. What will happen now? This looks like I-485 approval even creates trouble. It seems does not make sense.

Theoretically indefinetely is indefinetely, one day, one week, one month, one year, ten and hundred years make no difference. With AC21 in place shall we say, the "intend" at the time of filing makes more sense?

i love your last line. i read the following wording regarding AC21 somewhere.
at the time that I-485 is filed, the employee should have the intent to work for the employer indefinitely UPON approval of I-485. and the intent can change after 180 days. based on my understanding this means that the intent should exist at the time when you file the application but not necessarily when you get your GC.
 
lisansw said:
How about the case like this.

One is trying to find new employer (for whatever reason, one can not work for the previous employer) and before one can find one, I-485 approved. If one can find new sponsor before I-485 approval, AC21 will apply. What will happen now? This looks like I-485 approval even creates trouble. It seems does not make sense.

Theoretically indefinetely is indefinetely, one day, one week, one month, one year, ten and hundred years make no difference. With AC21 in place shall we say, the "intend" at the time of filing makes more sense?

lisansw, you hit the nail on its (or his?) head. All this talk about "intent" reminds me of the movie Minority Report, where the prosecution is based on what you think you might do, instead of what circumstances caused you to do it.

The USCIS has written an article on what you could and could not do as a GC holder. In their own words,

They say... Rights: To be employed in the United States at any legal work of your qualification and choosing.

They do not say... Rights: To be employed in the United States at any legal work of your qualification and choosing after you work with the current employer for 6 months.

They also say... Once a permanent resident completes the necessary residence and physical presence requirements (which vary in certain cases), an application for naturalization can be filed with Immigration. This starts a review of the person’s basic eligibility, criminal and security histories, and then leads to testing of the person’s English language abilities, knowledge of the history and form of government of the US, and good moral character.

No where in that article, do they say... review of your employment obligations with the company you obtained GC through.

I know people who have quit their employer's job within weeks after obtaining GC, and are happily settle, US citizens today. This "puck" talk of scaring people about staying with employer is some thing you would expect from old ladies and evil body-shoppers.

Get GC, change jobs, live happy.


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Vote Bush '04
 
dsfgh100 said:
lisansw, you hit the nail on its (or his?) head. All this talk about "intent" reminds me of the movie Minority Report, where the prosecution is based on what you think you might do, instead of what circumstances caused you to do it.

The USCIS has written an article on what you could and could not do as a GC holder. In their own words,

They say... Rights: To be employed in the United States at any legal work of your qualification and choosing.

They do not say... Rights: To be employed in the United States at any legal work of your qualification and choosing after you work with the current employer for 6 months.

They also say... Once a permanent resident completes the necessary residence and physical presence requirements (which vary in certain cases), an application for naturalization can be filed with Immigration. This starts a review of the person’s basic eligibility, criminal and security histories, and then leads to testing of the person’s English language abilities, knowledge of the history and form of government of the US, and good moral character.

No where in that article, do they say... review of your employment obligations with the company you obtained GC through.

I know people who have quit their employer's job within weeks after obtaining GC, and are happily settle, US citizens today. This "puck" talk of scaring people about staying with employer is some thing you would expect from old ladies and evil body-shoppers.

Get GC, change jobs, live happy.


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Vote Bush '04


The article I refer to is at http://uscis.gov/graphics/howdoi/PermRes.htm



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Vote Bush '04
 
Folks, take a minute out of your arguments and let me know your views about my case. I have been working with the current employer post-GC for about 4 months and intend to make a job change in another month and a half..so, it will be 5 & 1/2 months instead of the hallowed 6 months figure that has been talked about. Is it a very material time frame or do you think it will work? :)
 
sing_amtik,

It's a matter of your conscience. If you feel not right about it, stick around for a couple more months. Looking at the big picture, 2 more months don't make that much of a difference.

If you think it's time to move on.....go for it.

Enjoy life. You ARE a permanent resident. There are no contracts with the government!
 
JoeF said:
And all this in the vein attempt to discredit me. Instead, he just makes a fool out of himself for everybody to see.
Case closed.

Well, JoeF, you can't seem to drop the matter either, right? It's been my biggest peeve with you during the years I have been visiting this portal. You always want to get in the last word, even if what you are saying is almost identical to what anyone (or everyone) else is saying (albeit in a slightly different manner).

Semantically and philosophically, everyone agrees that you must show intent to work for the sponsoring employer. Everything else is vague. I still feel that a great job opportunity is worth the risk (personally) in this case. Obviously you don't feel the same.

But you claim that the other guy is making a fool out of himself for everybody to see. Sure, he may be an idiot (especially given his political preferences to vote for a chimp), but your obtuseness doesn't make you look like the good guy either.

This matter has been hashed and rehashed for years now. Anyone who's been a frequent visitor on this site knows your feelings on this matter (use the 6 mnth rule of thumb). You've made it perfectly clear in 100s of posts, and more power to you for that.

But, you cannot, with a clear conscience, say that anyone who quits his job 1 week or 1 day for that matter, after working for the sponsoring employer will NEVER get his/her citizenship. You will cry yourself hoarse (or type yourself to blisters) but you will not convince people who want to take the risk and join another company for better rewards.

So, while you feel that the guy is making a fool out of himself for all to see, you are not doing much better. Drop it and people will appreciate you more for your other contributions to this forum. Keep persisting, and you will be added to a lot more people's killfiles than those in yours....
 
Some Information

All,

Not to try scare anybody nor I agree this comments totally, just for your information. You can check by yourself on

http://www.immihelp.com/gc/employment/greencard.html

//==============================================
Sponsoring Employer
All employment based greencard applicants must keep on working for the sponsoring employer even after applying for adjustment of status and even if they have received. EB1 petitions with "persons of extraordinary ability" and self-petitioned NIW beneficiary may change employers(because job offer is not required under those categories), while an employer-petitioned beneficiary may not(while job offer is required). After getting EAD, he/she can do any other part-time job or even open a business as long as he/she keeps working for the sponsoring employer. But the primary applicant's dependents can work for any employer, as long as he/she(dependent) himself/herself has got EAD and the primary applicant's application for AOS is still pending.

The employee should work not only for the same employer but also keep doing the original job offered. If job title or job duties change significantly, it is considered a job change and new labor certification is required and hence new I-140 is also required. Please note that normal raises in salary are not considered job change.

In today's dynamic market, many people want to know how long does an employee who receives employment based greencard needs to work for the same employer after getting he greencard. There is no precise answer to this question. The law say that if the employee left within 2 years, the employee has burden to prove that he/she accepted the job offer in good faith and didn't intend to leave at the time of accepting permanent residentship. If it is more than 2 years, the burden comes to USCIS to prove that. The theory behind greencard through offer of employment is that an employee is accepting a job on a "permanent" basis. But "permanent" obviously does not mean for ever as it does not make sense. But it also does not mean that the person leaves the company the day he/she gets green card. Each case would be different depending upon employee-employer relationship. But in general, staying with the same company for about 6 months to 1 year should be enough indication of permanency. "Permanent" means that, at the time the employee becomes a lawful permanent resident, neither the employer nor the employee have any plans to change the employment relationship described in the labor certification or I-140 petition. If you leave too soon, USCIS may claim that you did not intend to take the job up on a "permanent" basis. If the employer(or even a jealous co-worker)is dissatisfied with yourself leaving too soon, they can file a complaint with USCIS and USCIS may either take any action or not depending upon the circumstances. USCIS also may find about yourself leaving too soon while later applying for Citizenship or petitioning for relatives.

If USCIS finds out that the employee was just waiting for his/her immigration to be complete before jumping to a new job, then they are likely to charge fraud. If, on the other hand, it appears that the employee really did intend to stay with the petitioning employer indefinitely at the time of immigrating, but a legitimate reason later developed for leaving(like employer's business took an unexpected downturn and the employer had to lay off workers), then there should be no problem.

Even if the employer does not mind employee leaving immediately after getting the green card, it is not OK for USCIS. Both employer and employee should have good faith to have that employer/employee relationship on a "permanent" basis.

Until the person gets the greencard, if he/she is layed-off at any time, he/she would have to start the greencard process again. If the labor certificate is approved, it won't be valid as it is for job in future and that job must be available now, which is not the case. So labor certificate would be invalid. Similarly I-140 also would be invalid, if it has been approved. The person can use his/her priority date from the previous company if his/her I-140 was approved before he/she got layed-off. Even if the person has applied for adjustment of status and received EAD, he/she can only work additionally for any other employer as long as he/she keeps working for the sponsoring employer. So if he get laid off, everything including his/her H1B visa, labor certification, I-140, I-485 application, EAD, AP are invalid. If the person is maintaining valid non-immigrant status, he/she has 10 days to leave the country . If the person is on EAD/AP, he/she has to immediately leave the country.

For labor certification based green card, if the employee gets transferred from the original job location outside the normal commuting distance(approximately 35 miles), new labor certification is needed even if the job duties remain same. For non-labor certification based green card, transfer to different location is fine as long as the job duties remain same.

If the sponsoring employer simply changes its name to better reflect the business or for other similar business and every thing else remains same, no new procedure is required. Everything remains same as earlier. But in all the subsequent paperwork, standard letter regarding the name change should be included.

If the sponsoring employer gets merged or gets bought by another company, whether the whole green card needs to be done again or not depends upon the nature of the merger or buy. If the new company is the successor of interest and takes over everything and your job duties remain same at the same location(job location change within the commuting distance of original job location is fine), the green card process does not need to be done again, otherwise everything needs to be done from scratch. (If I-140 is approved, the previous priority date can be used, though).
 
lisansw, the document may be outdated because some information is obviously incorrect (e.g., 6th paragraph).
 
lisansw:

The info you posted does not reflect the changes brought by AC21 (ie. ability to switch employers after your I-140 is approved and I-485 pending for 180 days or more; portability of Labor Certification etc.). It reflects the state of the law in year 1999. Fortunately for most of us it is year 2004 :)
 
whose commitment?

This thread does make interesting reading.....

Being a very very recent GC holder (i.e. as of this morning), this thread prompted me to revisit my whole application file. The following is how I saw it:
EMPLOYER applies to labor dept. to show no one else exists to fit this qualification (EB2 and EB3 only).
EMPLOYER appeals to the USCIS saying that they have this particular job opening and that the beneficiary is the only person capable of filling position, and hence grant him permanent residency (EB1, NIW, EB2, EB3, i.e. all categories)
USCIS OK's EMPLOYER'S request to grant beneficiary PR based on EMPLOYER'S need (I-140 approval).
BENIFICIARY (i.e. me and you) apply to USCIS for admission/adjustment of status to go join this job using I-140 approval and an open ended (indefinite) offer letter from EMPLOYER (wherein the EMPLOYER commits to employing you long-term) - AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

Would really appreciate someone explaining to me where does this question of our having committed to work for this employer indefinitely arise? The commitment is just the other way round, isn't it?

Furthermore, in cases where the USCIS DID want some type of commitment time/money/etc. (such as for a marriage based GC or a investment based GC) to issue a permanent residency, they have plainly enforced a CONDITIONAL green card system with a specified time based review of the applicants situation/status......

??????????????????????????????
 
July02EB12 said:
This thread does make interesting reading.....

Would really appreciate someone explaining to me where does this question of our having committed to work for this employer indefinitely arise? The commitment is just the other way round, isn't it?

Furthermore, in cases where the USCIS DID want some type of commitment time/money/etc. (such as for a marriage based GC or a investment based GC) to issue a permanent residency, they have plainly enforced a CONDITIONAL green card system with a specified time based review of the applicants situation/status......

??????????????????????????????

You are on my side on this discussion. My slant on this has always been that you can get GC and quit your employer the very next day. No trouble, no hassle. My reasons are different for arriving at that conclusion. Your reasons are interesting, valid and correct.


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Spirit of USA Personal Responsibility, Opportunity, Equality.
 
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