Yahoo: Legal Immigrants to US face GC logJam

[GotPR?]

Out of my experience talking to fellow indians, I would say this argument not true at all. Awareness of immigration rules by indians will make them decide about going back. Corporate treatment of the guys here is much better in recent years as HR and management realized that if people are exploited like they did between 2001-2003 then people will leave. One of the recent trends is offering fulltime employemt with benefits etc.. for the people in their sixth year. This treatment difference is making some indians not worry about their greencard atleast for now. Everything will change when H1 cap is relaxed to say to 120,000.

I know lot of people take the next flight (really within a week) after getting their citizenship. This is not true for greencard at all.
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2001 - 2003 was different. There were huge storms of lay-off in those days, and H1 was the 1st to be cut, and once they were laid-off , it was almost next to impossible to find the job, and they stayed out of status a few months. They didn't have choice. Some people was worried about being out of status more than 180 days, some people just gave up searching job, and left the US. Remember that was the time whole outsourcing started to pick up, and especially for indian people, it was not bad option to go back to their country.

I think it is find the people makes desicions in advance to go back for their own sake, but problem in this thread is people tries to link such moves to future competitiveness of the US and starts saying as if the US is going into serious trouble. I honestly don't think so.

 

[tusharvk]

glad to know that it all became academic for you.
but what if you had stayed back in nyc and liked the job and filed I-485 and had interview for your GC? you would be required to convince the officer that you are going to go for a junior position after you get your GC.

There are some people who are very bright and are in the queue for the GC and may have to deny promotion for the fear of re-starting the GC process. Then there is also the question of exp gained with current employer not being counted for PERM. So someone may like their job and the employer is also willing to promote them, but would have to leave just to get promoted and restart the GC process.

If greencard was approved within 180 days then I would have had to move into old job and move back to Columbus, Ohio.

If 485 remained outstanding for more then 180 days then I would have stayed in New York and used ac21 to change my intention of my work location to New York City.

It all became academic anyways because I moved back within 3 months. (I hated the job and couldn't stand to be in NYC anymore; it was good when I was in my mid 20's but in my mid 30's it was pretty painful to be there).

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

2001 - 2003 was different. There were huge storms of lay-off in those days, and H1 was the 1st to be cut, and once they were laid-off , it was almost next to impossible to find the job, and they stayed out of status a few months. They didn't have choice. Some people was worried about being out of status more than 180 days, some people just gave up searching job, and left the US. Remember that was the time whole outsourcing started to pick up, and especially for indian people, it was not bad option to go back to their country.

I think it is find the people makes desicions in advance to go back for their own sake, but problem in this thread is people tries to link such moves to future competitiveness of the US and starts saying as if the US is going into serious trouble. I honestly don't think so.

If we look at the s/w jobs, currently people may be here or haven't left because of personal reasons, to continue to be here when immigration is not going anywhere and when professional growth is effected because of that, the same professional reasons have potential to become personal in future. In this context, immigration awareness and work treatment will certainly influence people. In any case, the argument that the US economy will be affected is flawed. After all there are new H1s ready to come in from India leave alone rest of the world. Top quality may differ but there is volume with the required quality. There are two things here. Firstly, there should be some degree of fairness in understanding immigration issues of Indians and in recognizing their contribution. It is certainly unhealthy to think that it is fine to loose a person with immigration problems and replace him with other or make him/her work offshore. Secondly, people who work should not think that they are indispensable here and their departure will harm the economy in a great way.

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

There is no one size fits all approach.
...................
I like giving this example; if your colleague has a bigger cubicle then you and you complain about it; they don't make yours bigger; they make the other persons smaller.
................

For this same reason people from rest of the world are finding it hard to highlight or understand the immigration problems of retrogressed countries. When majority is effected it usually needs some action even when it is right for a smaller number from other countries. If we think that fixing the problem will somehow effect ROW, we can never have an good dicussion.

 

[mariner555]

However, my job required me to interact with many portfolio managers, business leaders and I had access to these economic reports. Predictions on interest rates; emerging global powers, gross domestic product, effect of terrorism, iraq situation, geopolitical issues, etc.

Not one time was it ever mentioned that immigration was an issue that would impact the economy. It wouldn't even make top 10 list if they did create one.

UN,
I dont know whether you are trying to highlight yr big shot job. just because it was/is not mentioned in some report doesnt mean that it is not mentioned at all.
there are countless small businesses which are affected by this. many small businesses do prefer immigrants, just for the fact that immigrants work hard and dont leave the job in a flash over pay issues. one of the main reasons the productivity in US goes up is because of the immense work done by s.ware engineers (whether in B2B, B2C or other packages)

 

[KMax]

Sounds like a good plan! But, what would you have done if you couldn't even file 485 and couldn't use the AC21 benefit? And you would have to wait years and years just to file 485?

I think that is where the problem. Let ppl. file 485...get EAD and use AC21...take however long they want to adjudicate the 485....then you wouldn't see ppl. cribbing so much about it.

Or something like UK's HSMP program, where you are not dependent on the employer.

If greencard was approved within 180 days then I would have had to move into old job and move back to Columbus, Ohio.

If 485 remained outstanding for more then 180 days then I would have stayed in New York and used ac21 to change my intention of my work location to New York City.

It all became academic anyways because I moved back within 3 months. (I hated the job and couldn't stand to be in NYC anymore; it was good when I was in my mid 20's but in my mid 30's it was pretty painful to be there).

 

[Jackolantern]

IN visa lottery there is close to 9 million applications (haven't checked in a while to see what the real number is); and this doesn't even include the countries which send most of the people to USA. If they opened it up to point base system and all countries can participate; then possibility is what 20 million applications.

The UK HSMP isn't a lottery system, it's a points system. They aren't flooded with 20 million applicants, because people aren't going to waste their time and money applying if they don't meet the criteria to get enough points.

 

[KMax]

You haven't asnwered my question. What would you have done if you couldn't even file 485 and couldn't use the AC21 benefit? And you would have to wait years and years just to file 485?

How does it effect the labor pool...being on H1B or EAD the ppl. are already in the pool.

A program like HSMP might increase the applications....but at the same time eliminate the Employer based ones and most probably having the same net effect.

Originally Posted by KMax
Sounds like a good plan! But, what would you have done if you couldn't even file 485 and couldn't use the AC21 benefit? And you would have to wait years and years just to file 485?

I think that is where the problem. Let ppl. file 485...get EAD and use AC21...take however long they want to adjudicate the 485....then you wouldn't see ppl. cribbing so much about it.

This sounds good in theory. However, anyone on a non immigrant visa as long as they are in status can apply for adjustment of status through employment (b1, b2, f1, L1, L2, H2a, H2b, etc.). With perm going so fast, if everyone could just file the 485 then it would increase the labor pool exponentially. It doesn't take that long to get perm approved. In the past when visa dates were current this was still possible but it took a while to get labors approved and people couldn't stay in non immigrant status long enough to file 485.

Or something like UK's HSMP program, where you are not dependent on the employer.

IN visa lottery there is close to 9 million applications (haven't checked in a while to see what the real number is); and this doesn't even include the countries which send most of the people to USA. If they opened it up to point base system and all countries can participate; then possibility is what 20 million applications.

 

[cableching]

I am talking from experience. I don't need to mention anything about my job or background. However, I do have quite a bit of exposure to these things that many people don't have exposure to.

The more discussion there is around what will happen to economy if people aren't given greencards, etc. just goes to show the narrow box that people fit into in that they don't understand how big this economy is.

There are many, many bankruptices of companies each year. Is it due to business failure or because they can't find foreign workers. Did dot com boom go boom because there wasn't enough foreign workers, etc?

Besides immigration lawyers; lobbyists being paid by interested people; why do you think nothing has been done?

Some people will look at their apartment complex and see so many people on h-1b's; look at their colleagues and see so many h-1b's; go to their grocery storre and see so many h-1b's and start thinking what would happen if we all left; apartment complex is empty; grocery store is empty, etc. However, this is SOOOOO small in grand scheme of things.

If you want to discuss facts; put some numbers around them and build a strong economic case then there is some merits. However, this can't be done. To say that US economy will suffer so much due to retrogression is pretty absurd. Sorry to say that but anyone who thinks so is thinking in very narrow box.

If it is sooooo small in grand scheme of things??? Why don't they just increase H1B and Immigrant Visa numbers, as it is soooooo small even if they double everything, it would not make much difference? Roght? Consider it 0.1 or 0.01 percent of the grand scheme of things? Even when they double it is just going to be 0.2 or 0.002, which is still toooo samll in the grand scheme of things????????????????????

 

[Jackolantern]

If it is sooooo small in grand scheme of things??? Why don't they just increase H1B and Immigrant Visa numbers, as it is soooooo small even if they double everything, it would not make much difference? Roght? Consider it 0.1 or 0.01 percent of the grand scheme of things? Even when they double it is just going to be 0.2 or 0.002, which is still toooo samll in the grand scheme of things????????????????????

Brilliant point!

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

Good point. If USA did a point base system; what jobs and criteria do you think it would be.

Would it be any jobs that fit into eb3 or even eb2 category?

If it was and if it was for an accountant or software engineer and it is Bachelors plus two years or even Bachelors plus five year; how many people do you think would apply?

With proper policy implementation, I am sure that number would be far less than millions coming through 245i in the current system.

 

[felix31]

I was sick and disappointed over this ROW retrogression. It took me a whole year to get over the fact that Green card through employment is not gonna happen in my case.

Since hope is not a strategy, we have devised a plan to leave the US as soon as my wife graduates, hopefully by the end of next year.


best of luck to all of you who will stay

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

245i are people in the country.

point base system would be open to everyone. There are a lot of people in different countries who can't come here due to no family connection; no friends who can find a company to get them here; economic hardship to go to school here, etc.

There would be no such limitation as many people who currently can't come here for these reasons would be eligible. It would have to be in the millions.

Remember; skill worker as it is is for a job that only requires two years of experience.

thats right, current skilled worker is open to all with two years experience. We are certainly not thinking in terms of current system that groups tech worker with millions of 245i.

I was reponding to your comment "it is Bachelors plus two years or even Bachelors plus five year; how many people do you think would apply?" as you mentioned.

for example, if anyone has to get a new H1 from chennai consulate now, he/she has to go through tech interview panel before getting the visa. If we can do this for H1, it would be better to have some kind of point system for retrogressed countries but follow the same pattern as H1 for filtering. A guy in say Nagpur certainly does not mind coming and taking a tech interview in Chennai before he applies for immigration. This way they won't be that many as the millions of 245is. Thats my point.

Well, if we want to refine the system we can do many things, if they want to stagnate everything group everybody together.

 

[techy2468]

Good point. If USA did a point base system; what jobs and criteria do you think it would be.

Would it be any jobs that fit into eb3 or even eb2 category?

If it was and if it was for an accountant or software engineer and it is Bachelors plus two years or even Bachelors plus five year; how many people do you think would apply?

for point based system.....uscis will have to work very efficiently and smartly.....

i have seen australian immigration....revise their "skill in demand" list almost every week.....as soon as they get enough application.....or job market drops for that skill they used to take it off the list....

they used to even manage details in the skill to the extent of programming language for IT jobs........

of course USCIS may get millions of applications.......but i do have great doubts about that also....since they should be charging atleast $1500.......and with this revenue they can easily process millions of applications...

but i am sure its not going to happen.....because USA is number one destination.......they can be crappy and careless and people will still keep coming in hordes..

eg: H1b quota of 65k gets exhausted in just 2 months or so.....and tons of indians still come here.....because there is still disparity in pay.......and i am sure all of them know by now....that there is no chance of getting GC.

 

[tusharvk]

well canada and australia does award points for already having secured a job. we have a version of points based system here in the US where the number of points awarded for having a job offer is infinite.

the point based system would bring 10 people in for one job and the other 9 people would add to unemployment pool in this country->depress the overall wages-> raise taxes on the one person employed->reduce overall standard of living and kill enterpreneurial spirit->kill the incentive for the next set of 10 people to come here in the first place.

You need to fix the system; but the approach needs to be more innovative than just trying to copy somebody else's system. Also, points based system does not work in canada. a lot of people come in and then leave after being frustrated at not finding good jobs.

Fact is immigration is a temporary solution to any country's population+labor shortage needs. Immigration policy needs to be reviewed periodically to make sure the goals of the country are at the forefront of the policy measures. Any measures proposed have to be temporary and have sunset provisions.The current logjam by itself (only affecting oversubscribed countries) does not mean that the system needs to be fixed.

However, it is also true that nationals from certain countries (CH, IN) have an edge in terms of immigrating here; their countries also have an edge in receiving outsourced jobs. Why is that? May be because these countries have outstanding universities\schools that provide their people this edge. And these countries are currently oversubscribed. So, maybe, the US is losing its competitive edge due to not getting skilled labor from these oversubscribed countries.

245i are people in the country.

point base system would be open to everyone. There are a lot of people in different countries who can't come here due to no family connection; no friends who can find a company to get them here; economic hardship to go to school here, etc.

There would be no such limitation as many people who currently can't come here for these reasons would be eligible. It would have to be in the millions.

Remember; skill worker as it is is for a job that only requires two years of experience.

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

when we talk about fixing we are talking about reducing backlogs. If they fix something and that doesn't reduce backlogs then it is not fixing it is s...... I don't why you are afraid of s.....

Thats why I did not say all around the world in post, H1 interview is not done all around the world. Well, it is clear everybody stands for now.

I did not say anything about illegals eventhough it is effecting s/w engineers. Let them be seperate and let others be seperate.

 

[Jackolantern]

Good point. If USA did a point base system; what jobs and criteria do you think it would be.

Would it be any jobs that fit into eb3 or even eb2 category?

If it was and if it was for an accountant or software engineer and it is Bachelors plus two years or even Bachelors plus five year; how many people do you think would apply?

How they would decide their points system is up to them. I expect they would set the bar high enough so they don't get flooded by the whole world. If that would mean I'd get rejected, so be it ... just make the criteria clear so I won't apply if I'm far below the standard, and if I do apply give me an answer within a year so I can move on ASAP if I'm rejected. I qualify on points for Canada, UK, and New Zealand, so I have options if the US doesn't want me. I just hate the waiting game and I won't wait forever.

I don't expect that a points system would necessarily be in my favor. I expect it would be faster and less fraught with uncertainties and black holes like backlog centers and retrogression.

 

[KMax]

United Nations,

You have a blinkered vision because of what you have been through/not through.

Your below reponse is proof....
<I would have gone to New York City; let company keep my process going in Ohio. When it was time to file 485. I would have filed it.>

Everything is so simple....what if you are changing companies and your original application is screwed because not everybody can find such obliging companies like you.

One cannot really understand other's frustation unless you are in their shoes.

Peace Out!

 

[KMax]

Nobody cares about the people or community getting effected coz it is an employer centric process and the lawyers get paid by the companies and not the individuals. And the companies don't have to fix it coz they have it good. That is where the flaw is. And that is what I have been saying that they should fix and make it not dependent on the employer. Then you wouldn't have all these shady h1-b bodyshops that exploit ppl.

That is correct. My situation (family/career) is different then some of the people here.

Remember; everyone is saying what their impact is or immigration impact is to country/companies, etc. If people are as important as everyone thinks then companies would accomodate you wouldn't they?

With priority date transferability; h-1b extensions; perm going so fast there is many avenues for people.

I should correct one thing; I didn't tell company I would quit; I told them I wouldn't go to NYC if they wanted to start from scratch. If I knew everything I know now, I probably would not have taken that stance. Company wouldn't let business necessity stand in the way of some knucklehead immigration attorney shaping their business needs. They would have and did find solution to the issue.

I'm just curious that if this is such a burning issue and there is such an impact; how come some of the big name attornies have not taken it upon themselves to fix this. Murthy, Khanna some of the lawyers we quote don't work on cases. They just lobby and talk to people. I imagine they would want to be hereos to the "community".

 

[hipka]

I didn't have patience to read it.

However, I worked in the capital markets. There is very little foreign workers in it.

However, my job required me to interact with many portfolio managers, business leaders and I had access to these economic reports. Predictions on interest rates; emerging global powers, gross domestic product, effect of terrorism, iraq situation, geopolitical issues, etc.

Not one time was it ever mentioned that immigration was an issue that would impact the economy. It wouldn't even make top 10 list if they did create one.

The brightest and best are not bachelors graduates with one or two years of experience who come to USA on H-1b in essentially entry level positions and then gain experience while they are here. The brightest and best are proven commodities in their own countries. They are involved in significant scientific, business ventures. These people have so many avenues of coming here and getting the greencard. If these types of people can't get visas/greencards then you will see something change. If the CFO/CEO of major banks/financial institutions/software companies, etc. tell US business leaders that they don't want to come visit, do business in USA but because of immigration issues then you will see something change. However, that will never be the case.

There are a few things I've seen in my career/life that sort of shaped my opinion. One of them was when the commissioner of baseball banned Pete Rose for life from baseball because he bet on baseball games. For those non baseball fans; he had the record for most base hits in a lifetime. Bart Giamatti stated that "there is no one person bigger then the game of baseball". His ineference was we were here before and we will be here after. We are not dependent on one person.

Another common thing that happens is when you set up a business infrastructure. You do it in such a way to "plug and play". What this essentially means is that people are interchangeable. You cannot design it in such a way that it falls apart if one person leaves. All people are interchangeable. No matter how hard everyone wants to believe that things will fall apart if they leave or how a company will be screwed needs to keep that in perspective.

If CEO's of major public companies can retire, get fired and turn over every couple of years and companies don't miss a beat and in some cases even get stronger then what argument do you/we have that if they don't give you a greencard that this somehow will have such catastraphic results in short or long term?

Well those articles in a nutshell say that 'high skill' immigrants have an economic impact far greater than their number and when a country loses these people, its competitors tend to benefit.
Yes, the topic is fairly new, so may not be a lot of research on it.

I believe that the trend of offshoring to India, increased significantly due to difficulties in the immigration process(both H-1B and GC problems). Talent headed back to India and multinational companies began to hire these people and expand. So jobs which would have stayed in the US, left its shores. Also consulting companies, based in India, changed their business model and began selling 'offshoring' aggressively, rather than client location 'outsourcing'.

Your 'plug and play' business model is really a traditional approach. With global opportunities available to employees with skills, there is a real danger that the talent pool might migrate to a competitor, maybe in another country, and make him stronger.