Yahoo: Legal Immigrants to US face GC logJam

[where_is_my_gc]

It is NOT the qualification of the applicant that determines the eb category, but the job requirement. If job requires bachelor then person is qualified for eb3 even if he/she has MS or PhD. In other words, eb category is FIRST determined by the job requirements.

And yes, employer is NOT required to sponspor employee for the green card.

True. But these job requirements dont always work the way EB categories are divided into. You'd find plenty of instances where you have EB2 person working for EB3 job requirements or vice versa. In IT at least this is very blurred. This is what happens - I want GC, company trusts me or has some commitment - job requirement is created and floated for the position I am working for. IF I am eligible for EB2 (with MS or 5 yrs), I woudl request company and they may tune it to fit me into perspective.
Who is going to question company now about the job requirement or whether "See Mr. it could have been fulfilled by a bachelor-EB3 but you made it MS to fit EB2".

--

Yes. Employer is not required. But whenever they do - its called sponsoring.

 

[tusharvk]

please tell me what you think is so miserable about the life in wait for GC? true! people want to return with a job offer in hand; but I think this is merely a pretext used by people to not return.
If somebody did their MS from here and worked here for a few years, proved to their employer that they are worthy of being sponsored for GC, please don't tell me they can't get a job in India to maintain an above-average standard of living in India.
Those who want to return will return no-matter what; those who don't want will use the excuses you mention (peer pressures and so on).

hipka,

Just family pressures, peer pressures, relative pressures, prestige issues -- all these just force people to just continue their life here even when it is miserable, beleiving that one day everything would be solved.

 

[hipka]

I respectfully disagree. The fact is that US did not loose them. What kind of jobs will the wonderful people you mentioned would land in without doing Masters or Phd? They would be only eligible for type that can be done by any 3 year degree person or to speak precisely anyone who is eligible only for EB3.

Now if the bright people who you mentioned gained enough experience or start their own business or become multi-national managers, they will become eligible for EB1.

You might say US missed them in first place. US immigration treats a person at face value. What the person can do NOW, not what he will become tommorow.

If you would employ some one, you would see what that person can do for you now.

I can bet $100 that US would never loose a person who is really bright, it will eventually take them back.

(I was elibible for EB2 based on experience, degree plus 5)

Again the assumption here is that after starting their own business/becoming managers they will want to come to the US. Having interacted with IT managers in bangalore,India, I know this is not true.

 

[envision]

That's where you're mistaken. He also has an MBA and runs a number of successful businesses. Not to mention becoming governor, of course.

Please, if it weren't for his connection with the Kennedys he would have been a thing of the past after his weightlifting/bodybuilding career

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

please tell me what you think is so miserable about the life in wait for GC? true! people want to return with a job offer in hand; but I think this is merely a pretext used by people to not return.
If somebody did their MS from here and worked here for a few years, proved to their employer that they are worthy of being sponsored for GC, please don't tell me they can't get a job in India to maintain an above-average standard of living in India.
Those who want to return will return no-matter what; those who don't want will use the excuses you mention (peer pressures and so on).

well, thats why i said we need strong mind not influenced by others. i have seen number people want to go back but just hang in 'coz their spouse doesn't like it. people will return when they understand the ground reality and make every one else who are influencing them understand that. but everyone try to hang on as long as possible.

May be I am missing your point in "tell me what you think is so miserable about the life in wait for GC ?", well, isn't the whole discussion about not waiting too long. if life is cool in waiting we wouldn't be here.

Bottomline is, just me saying leaving the country will not work, there are lot of other guys who want to stay whatever it takes for many reasons and that is enough to diminish my talent.

 

[desi3933]

....
....
This is what happens - I want GC, company trusts me or has some commitment - job requirement is created and floated for the position I am working for. IF I am eligible for EB2 (with MS or 5 yrs), I woudl request company and they may tune it to fit me into perspective.
....
....

Sounds to me as "gaming the system", if job requirements are "tailored" by keeping person's skill set in mind. Usually, job requirements are set without keeping "one person in mind".

It is odd, how some people want to reform only "certain" aspects of immigration, but won't say anything about any other aspect as long as it benefits them.

On another note, if a so called "eb2 person" is working on eb3 job, was he/she forced for that job? He/She accepted that position by choice. Also, by continuing your eb3 GC, you have accepted how your GC is being processed. You are there by choice. So stop complaining.

 

[hipka]

please tell me what you think is so miserable about the life in wait for GC? true! people want to return with a job offer in hand; but I think this is merely a pretext used by people to not return.
If somebody did their MS from here and worked here for a few years, proved to their employer that they are worthy of being sponsored for GC, please don't tell me they can't get a job in India to maintain an above-average standard of living in India.
Those who want to return will return no-matter what; those who don't want will use the excuses you mention (peer pressures and so on).

Wrong. The GC process is giving a negative impression of US, which makes people think of going back. This negative impression remains even after getting the GC and is reason to head back.

 

[desi3933]

Wrong. The GC process is giving a negative impression of US, which makes people think of going back. This negative impression remains even after getting the GC and is reason to head back.

Do you have any facts to justify your "belief"?

Also, you never responded to my questions in earlier post. Here is that post again --

And what I am trying to say is that loss of talent is a valid and powerful argument against retrogression, which should be used when we write to employers, senators etc. Does any one disagree?

This is a flawed arguement. Do you have any facts and/or number to justify what you claim to be "loss of talent"?

Would you please answer my one question? Employment based green card is employer based, then why many people talk of leaving employer? It seems that they will do anything to get GC and planning to leave employer even BEFORE GC? Isn't this exploitation of the system? I think this should be corrected too. Not just the things that affect you personally.

 

[tusharvk]

well, thats why i said we need strong mind not influenced by others. i have seen number people want to go back but just hang in 'coz their spouse doesn't like it. people will return when they understand the ground reality and make every one else who are influencing them understand that.

"spouse does not like it" looks to me like an excuse to hang on. strength of mind is definitely needed to follow what you want to do regardless of what others think. why should one then care about pursuading others about the rightness of their decision. if the decision was right, it will be proved later in the life and doubters will then agree that it was.

Bottomline is, just me saying leaving the country will not work, there are lot of other guys who want to stay whatever it takes for many reasons and that is enough to diminish my talent.

how does "others wanting to hang on" diminish your talent?

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

"spouse does not like it" looks to me like an excuse to hang on. strength of mind is definitely needed to follow what you want to do regardless of what others think. why should one then care about pursuading others about the rightness of their decision. if the decision was right, it will be proved later in the life and doubters will then agree that it was.



how does "others wanting to hang on" diminish your talent?

thats good, my point is majority is not like that. the reply was in response to hipka's "loss of talent" issue. I am saying there will not be loss of talent as others who are in the same situation willing to compromise or do whatever it takes. If you work in s/w, then you can undestand how others wanting to hang on diminish your talent. otherwise it doesn't apply to somone who is a rocket scientist.citizen can also give you a better answer for that question.

 

[hipka]

Do you have any facts to justify your "belief"?

Also, you never responded to my questions in earlier post. Here is that post again --


This is a flawed arguement. Do you have any facts and/or number to justify what you claim to be "loss of talent"?

Would you please answer my one question? Employment based green card is employer based, then why many people talk of leaving employer? It seems that they will do anything to get GC and planning to leave employer even BEFORE GC? Isn't this exploitation of the system? I think this should be corrected too. Not just the things that affect you personally.

Sure, if you have the patience read
http://web.mit.edu/nruiz/www/Documents/Shinu's%20Thesis%20Draft.pdf , it has several references to facts and figures
Check page-14 which says--
"Many of these employees have been forced to return back to India because of the lack of job opportunities in the U.S. or they have been unable to renew their H-1 visa."

and this link explains the losses suffered by a country due to migration of talent.
www.wcfia.harvard.edu/seminars/pegroup/Desai-Kapur.pdf

(if link does not work do google search below
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache...US+due+to+emigration&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2
)
Your question is not relevant to the issue at hand: i.e. loss of talent is a powerful argument against retrogression

 

[GotPR?]

Wrong. The GC process is giving a negative impression of US, which makes people think of going back. This negative impression remains even after getting the GC and is reason to head back.

I have a EB2 coworker who is from ROW and applied for GC early this year. He got GC within a few months.
I also saw a couple of posts in other forum that it took only 3 - 4 months from PERM filing to I485 approval.
These news actually encourage the people from ROW rather than giving negative impact, if you think word of mouth is such a big deal.
Only negative impact is made on the people from oversubcribed countries, and it might cause glitches on the mind of these people to think twice to come to the US, but, you know, the best & brightest is not only from these 2 countries.

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

hipka,
if you think that the best and the brightest are coming to US now, you are really mistaken. companies like infosys, wipro ... are absorbing these guys in their third year college. Best and brightest may not come here in future because people are settled well over in India but immigration awareness will the second reason in my opinion. May be there will be an effect after few years, but then the US may come up with something else.

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

The brightest and best are proven commodities in their own countries. They are involved in significant scientific, business ventures.

This is the reason why the best and brightest are absorbed so young in India now a days. We cannot really find a best and brightest H1 coming to US in near future. If they are settled well in India, the avenues for greencard will not interest them.

Another common thing that happens is when you set up a business infrastructure. You do it in such a way to "plug and play". What this essentially means is that people are interchangeable.

Your view point of plug and play sounds very close to use and throw. On a second thought, actually plug and play suits better for a guy stuck in retrogression(plug him in immigration and play with visa numbers. )

 

[alterego2]

I didn't have patience to read it.

However, I worked in the capital markets. There is very little foreign workers in it.

However, my job required me to interact with many portfolio managers, business leaders and I had access to these economic reports. Predictions on interest rates; emerging global powers, gross domestic product, effect of terrorism, iraq situation, geopolitical issues, etc.

Not one time was it ever mentioned that immigration was an issue that would impact the economy. It wouldn't even make top 10 list if they did create one.

The brightest and best are not bachelors graduates with one or two years of experience who come to USA on H-1b in essentially entry level positions and then gain experience while they are here. The brightest and best are proven commodities in their own countries. They are involved in significant scientific, business ventures. These people have so many avenues of coming here and getting the greencard. If these types of people can't get visas/greencards then you will see something change. If the CFO/CEO of major banks/financial institutions/software companies, etc. tell US business leaders that they don't want to come visit, do business in USA but because of immigration issues then you will see something change. However, that will never be the case.

There are a few things I've seen in my career/life that sort of shaped my opinion. One of them was when the commissioner of baseball banned Pete Rose for life from baseball because he bet on baseball games. For those non baseball fans; he had the record for most base hits in a lifetime. Bart Giamatti stated that "there is no one person bigger then the game of baseball". His ineference was we were here before and we will be here after. We are not dependent on one person.

Another common thing that happens is when you set up a business infrastructure. You do it in such a way to "plug and play". What this essentially means is that people are interchangeable. You cannot design it in such a way that it falls apart if one person leaves. All people are interchangeable. No matter how hard everyone wants to believe that things will fall apart if they leave or how a company will be screwed needs to keep that in perspective.

If CEO's of major public companies can retire, get fired and turn over every couple of years and companies don't miss a beat and in some cases even get stronger then what argument do you/we have that if they don't give you a greencard that this somehow will have such catastraphic results in short or long term?

UN,

You miss the point when you say noone matters in the USA. The point is that at this juncture in time, the global owners of capital are valuing certain skills at a huge premium, skills in science, IT, biotechnology and engineering are in this category and honestly it is not just the best and brightest that are in demand here. Societies that possess them in large quantities will prosper and indeed there is a burgeoning transfer of wealth to skilled and industrious nations. Once they develop their domestic markets and increase their domestic demand, they will export less and less capital to the USA.

The USA is an unusually rich country in the recent history of mankind. Much of this has been built on innovation and keeping one step ahead of the competition. To continue doing this, it is more than just the best and the brightest that are needed, sheer numbers of skilled individuals are also needed, nowadays R&D, product development and innovation require teams of capable individuals of various levels of talent, skills in ample supply.

Ever since the industrial revolution and world wars the USA has maintained a roughly 20-25% share of the worlds GDP. The question is will this situation maintain with the current trends. This country is very much better than any other nation in making a more expansive web of domestic economic demand. However in order to feed growth in this domestic demand which is where the large mass of americans get their jobs (retail, services sector, healthcare etc) there needs to be a critical mass of productive enterprise too.
The Chinese economy is producing adequate quantities of capital but their domestic demand is relatively slim and in some regards they are exporting that to the US as well (through their capital holdings here).

So whereas organisations like the programmers guild may not be thrilled that the supply-demand dynamics will be altered to their detriment were these immigration rules relaxed, they would be to the overall benefit of the country and most other workers. Much like the effect of trade deals.

 

[tusharvk]

I also do not see retro lasting for more than a few years barring amnesty attempts. However, many would have already become tired of waiting-game and left for better opportunities. This might end up contributing to reduced retrogression.
So, the US may have lost those people for better or for worse.

This is very well said.
If there isn't any further amnesty like 245i; then in a few years employment base may be wide open with very little retrogression.

In grand scheme of things it is very difficult for people who are already here in USA working to show how they are being harmed or how the economy is being harmed.

 

[BrainDrain]

UN .. I dont know what made you say this ? You are in other words saying that people should do whatever they are made to do infinitely cause they just want to be here, keep being passed for promotions, salary raises and have their spouse at home with no certainty about future. Why will people not move home then as a better alternative and live a life of freedom.I am decided on this.

Very difficult to quantify this.

From perusing the boards; it seems people want greencard so they can move backhome and come/go as they please later.

It would be interesting to see how much people would really leave due to retrogression. If you are supposed to want to stay in USA permanently; then it doesn't make sense that it is taking too long and that one is going to leave.

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

Very difficult to quantify this.

From perusing the boards; it seems people want greencard so they can move backhome and come/go as they please later.

It would be interesting to see how much people would really leave due to retrogression.

Out of my experience talking to fellow indians, I would say this argument not true at all. Awareness of immigration rules by indians will make them decide about going back. Corporate treatment of the guys here is much better in recent years as HR and management realized that if people are exploited like they did between 2001-2003 then people will leave. One of the recent trends is offering fulltime employemt with benefits etc.. for the people in their sixth year. This treatment difference is making some indians not worry about their greencard atleast for now. Everything will change when H1 cap is relaxed to say to 120,000.

I know lot of people take the next flight (really within a week) after getting their citizenship. This is not true for greencard at all.

If you are supposed to want to stay in USA permanently; then it doesn't make sense that it is taking too long and that one is going to leave.

This is again completely not true, we all know what kind of compromises we have to make or cut down our ambitions to work towards the greencard. Unless one wants do the same kind work without any progress and loose all his technical edge, it does not really make sense to wait endlessly.

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

All I can say is I am not speaking just out of my personal experience.

 

[alterego2]

UN,

When you say "if greencard wasn't approved, I would use AC21" What do you mean. How is that possible, unless you have 2 separate petitions pending.