The instructions say you don't have to submit any documentation for tickets under $500, not that you don't have to disclose them outright.
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Traffic tickets and naturalization (threads merged)
- Thread starter patel789
- Start date
The instructions say you don't have to submit any documentation for tickets under $500, not that you don't have to disclose them outright.
AmericanWannabe
Registered Users (C)
What if one can not remmeber exact date of ticketing for traffic violation?
One can get a ticket passing a state. Hate the trouble of going to court
so he just paid the fine by sending a check to teh address listed on the ticket and then throw everything away. Only things remmeber is rough date and the name of the state
One can get a ticket passing a state. Hate the trouble of going to court
so he just paid the fine by sending a check to teh address listed on the ticket and then throw everything away. Only things remmeber is rough date and the name of the state
Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
Then just put the year, or the approximate time of year (e.g. Summer 2000). It is unlikely they will care about the exact date, as long as the ticket meets the criteria for which documentation details are not required (under $500, no DUI, etc.).What if one can not remmeber exact date of ticketing for traffic violation?
One can get a ticket passing a state. Hate the trouble of going to court
so he just paid the fine by sending a check to teh address listed on the ticket and then throw everything away. Only things remmeber is rough date and the name of the state
Seems either you had gotten quite a number of fines or you got a reckless driving charge for them to give you a choice of taking a defensive driving record.
I doubt it. In Texas, and I guess other states too, taking a defensive driving course is the standard way of dismissing a traffic ticket so that it doesn't go on your driving record. You can only do it once per year though.
The instructions say you don't have to submit any documentation for tickets under $500, not that you don't have to disclose them outright.
There are many posts on this subject already about this including ones from the INS and interviewers all stating they do not need to be disclosed. Topic has been beaten to death on here already...
There are many posts on this subject already about this including ones from the INS and interviewers all stating they do not need to be disclosed. Topic has been beaten to death on here already...
That may be so, but I'm going by what the N-400 instructions say, not by what some posters have reported. The instructions say that proof of payment for traffic citations under $500 need not to be provided , not that they don't need to be disclosed at all. There have been reports as well of some IOs asking if traffic citations (even for those below $500 when disclosed) have been paid.
In the end, the decision on not to disclose such citations is a personnel choice (not something in N-400 instructions) based on what some posters have reported here, the potential added hassles of an IO asking for proof of payment at interview, and the potential (albeit small) chance of an IO making it an issue for not disclosing such citations in the first place. Any advice such as "traffic citations under $500 don't need to be disclosed" should include a personnel choice disclaimer rather than making it appear to be based on an official USCIS policy or instruction on N-400.
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My understanding is that at one point the N-400 instructions or the form itself stated that traffic tickets could be ignored totally, but this was changed a while back because people were taking liberties and ignoring serious traffic-related offenses.There are many posts on this subject already about this including ones from the INS and interviewers all stating they do not need to be disclosed. Topic has been beaten to death on here already...
The question on the current version of the form reads:
"Have you ever been arrested, cited or detained by any law enforcement officer
(including USCIS or former INS and military officers) for any reason?"
The N-400 instructions don't elaborate on this, but the Guide To Naturalization (M-476) states:
"Even if you have committed a minor crime, USCIS may deny your application if you
do not tell the USCIS officer about the incident. Note that unless a traffic incident was
alcohol or drug related, you do not need to submit documentation for traffic fines and
incidents that did not involve an actual arrest if the only penalty was a fine less than
$500 and/or points on your driver’s license."
Note the "for any reason" in the question. That doesn't leave any wiggle room. The M-476 text merely indicates that you won't be asked for further documentation of minor traffic offenses. Presumably the USCIS internal guidelines for N-400 reviewing direct interviewers as to when additional documentation is needed.
My understanding is that at one point the N-400 instructions or the form itself stated that traffic tickets could be ignored totally, but this was changed a while back because people were taking liberties and ignoring serious traffic-related offenses.
The question on the current version of the form reads:
"Have you ever been arrested, cited or detained by any law enforcement officer
(including USCIS or former INS and military officers) for any reason?"
The N-400 instructions don't elaborate on this, but the Guide To Naturalization (M-476) states:
"Even if you have committed a minor crime, USCIS may deny your application if you
do not tell the USCIS officer about the incident. Note that unless a traffic incident was
alcohol or drug related, you do not need to submit documentation for traffic fines and
incidents that did not involve an actual arrest if the only penalty was a fine less than
$500 and/or points on your driver’s license."
Note the "for any reason" in the question. That doesn't leave any wiggle room. The M-476 text merely indicates that you won't be asked for further documentation of minor traffic offenses. Presumably the USCIS internal guidelines for N-400 reviewing direct interviewers as to when additional documentation is needed.
It may have changed since I had my interview a 2 years ago that's true. I can just relate what the INS told me on the phone, what my old lawyer said (yes they are often wrong) and what my interviewer said. Many others went the extra steps and asked the officials as well (not just taking advice from boards).
The point in this case is the original poster stated they where given a choice between deffensive driving training or a record. So weather you disclose a simple traffic ticket or not is one thing, but this situation seems to go beyond just a simple traffic ticket. I know in my many tickets in the past living in the US, I haven't once been told I needed to enter deffensive driving classes at all. So I think this issue might be something that will be needed to be divulged...
AmericanWannabe
Registered Users (C)
The point in this case is the original poster stated they where given a choice between deffensive driving training or a record. So weather you disclose a simple traffic ticket or not is one thing, but this situation seems to go beyond just a simple traffic ticket. I know in my many tickets in the past living in the US, I haven't once been told I needed to enter deffensive driving classes at all. So I think this issue might be something that will be needed to be divulged...
You may face that if you get too many tickets in one year. Actually not many, 3 tickets are enough. Even each incidence itself is minor. Because 3rd
ticket is tried seperately so it is still a minor. But three tickets accumulate
so the DMV may send you a letter asking you to take defensive driving class.
The point in this case is the original poster stated they where given a choice between deffensive driving training or a record. So weather you disclose a simple traffic ticket or not is one thing, but this situation seems to go beyond just a simple traffic ticket. I know in my many tickets in the past living in the US, I haven't once been told I needed to enter deffensive driving classes at all. So I think this issue might be something that will be needed to be divulged...
As I said in an earlier post, in Texas at least, you get the once-per-year option of taking a six hour defensive driving class to dismiss a ticket in lieu of paying the fine and getting an adverse entry on your record. The class even lets you get a discount on your insurance too. This situation is probably what the OP was referring to. If so, it still involves the issuing of a citation so has to be declared.
Don't worry about it
I had 10 tickets in 10 yrs, since they were less than $500, didnot disclose them , didnot matter. Got my Interview cleared last month. One of friend had one ticket for about $100, he disclosed that during interview and he was asked to submit all paperwork for that ticket. Finally he got the oath letter, but went thru pains of collecting docs.
Hi all friends
I am back after enjoying my green card life and getting ready for my citizenship process.
of course like all of you my wife and myself received few speeding tickets during these 5 years. my wife has one in her record and I waived mine with defensing driving. we were never arrested nor convicted for this reason.
Can anyone explain in briefly what should we do in this case?
I had 10 tickets in 10 yrs, since they were less than $500, didnot disclose them , didnot matter. Got my Interview cleared last month. One of friend had one ticket for about $100, he disclosed that during interview and he was asked to submit all paperwork for that ticket. Finally he got the oath letter, but went thru pains of collecting docs.
cafeconleche
Registered Users (C)
I have a few tickets: many parking tickets (maybe 10), 1 speeding ticket, 1 for expired registration. I'm getting worried, because I hear that you can be denied for having too many tickets. But, I think I'll disclose them anyway. If I ask the DMV, can they give me a printout of all my traffic violations?
AmericanWannabe
Registered Users (C)
I had 10 tickets in 10 yrs, since they were less than $500, didnot disclose them , didnot matter. Got my Interview cleared last month. One of friend had one ticket for about $100, he disclosed that during interview and he was asked to submit all paperwork for that ticket. Finally he got the oath letter, but went thru pains of collecting docs.
I am scared of this. If some tickets were given a long time ago may be even
the police did not keep records to the present. If you could not produce the
police record, what woudl you do?
Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
They won't matter now. They might matter if they are discovered in the next denaturalization drive.I had 10 tickets in 10 yrs, since they were less than $500, didnot disclose them , didnot matter.
He should have objected and asked for the supervisor, pointing out that their own rules don't require the docs for tickets under $500/no DUI/etc. Unless that ticket involved some other problem like an arrest or suspension.Got my Interview cleared last month. One of friend had one ticket for about $100, he disclosed that during interview and he was asked to submit all paperwork for that ticket. Finally he got the oath letter, but went thru pains of collecting docs.
I had 10 tickets in 10 yrs, since they were less than $500, didnot disclose them , didnot matter. Got my Interview cleared last month. One of friend had one ticket for about $100, he disclosed that during interview and he was asked to submit all paperwork for that ticket. Finally he got the oath letter, but went thru pains of collecting docs.
I have heard this happens quite a bit when you disclose even 1 ticket. I followed the advice of the INS when I called them (not just the lawyers I talked to about it) about not having to disclose the tickets. Interviewer found out since he asked me about if I had ever been in court and both were for traffic tickets (mandatory court at the time for any tickets in the county). He didn't care anymore once he found out they were under the $500/non-dui status.
State by state varies and so does IO to IO. The general rule is if you disclose them be prepared to back them up with proof they were paid etc. and the exact details from the DMV regardless if one thinks the IO shouldn't ask for the details or not.
The INS has the right to ask for any details on anything if they wish, the entire N-400 is just poorly written and the rules are too vague for anyone to truely get a Yes or No answer to. The traffic ticket one is probably the worst one for vagueness.
When in doubt just get all the details for your tickets and disclose them if you want. That way you definatly shouldn't have any issues as you can show proof of everything when asked for...
The likelyhood of any future "denaturalization drive" based on undisclosed traffic tickets alone seems very unlikely due in part to the Gorbach decision a few years ago.They won't matter now. They might matter if they are discovered in the next denaturalization drive.
The supervisor could always argue that the instructions state you don't need to submit documentation as part of initial filing process, not that you don't need to provide documentation at the interview when asked.He should have objected and asked for the supervisor, pointing out that their own rules don't require the docs for tickets under $500/no DUI/etc. Unless that ticket involved some other problem like an arrest or suspension.
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The supervisor could always argue that the instructions state you don't need to submit documentation as part of initial filing process, not that you don't need to provide documentation at the interview when asked.
It's Catch-22 anyway, because without submitting the documentation how do they know that the penalty was less than $500 and therefore the documentation isn't needed? Instead, they have to make a judgment call as to whether to trust what you say or not. If they don't believe you for whatever reason then they could well ask for proof of anything and everything.
Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
It is unlikely, but another terrorist attack could substantially increase the likelihood. And it won't be based on traffic tickets alone. It would be based on lying/fraud, and undisclosed traffic tickets are one of the easiest things to find because it's already in government systems so they could be found with an automated search. It's not like finding out about some crime you committed in a foreign country that doesn't share data with the US, or something for which one was never arrested or charged. Granted, finding out about tickets wouldn't be as easy as finding arrests and convictions, because of the DMVs tendency to purge records.The likelyhood of any future "denaturalization drive" based on undisclosed traffic tickets alone seems very unlikely due in part to the Gorbach decision a few years ago.
A determined and anal supervisor could also ask for your first-grade report card. But most of them aren't as bad as that that, and some will back down from unreasonable requests if you confidently but carefully object, especially if a lawyer is present. For example, one of my friends got grilled over his years-ago bankruptcy in his green card interview and successfully fought off the questions and documentation requests about it.The supervisor could always argue that the instructions state you don't need to submit documentation as part of initial filing process, not that you don't need to provide documentation at the interview when asked.
AmericanWannabe
Registered Users (C)
For example, one of my friends got grilled over his years-ago bankruptcy in his green card interview and successfully fought off the questions and documentation requests about it.
Did not know one has to disclose bankrupty and any civil matter. And has no idea how the USCIS know about it. Do they also do a credit check with
credit reporting agency on applicants?
AmericanWannabe
Registered Users (C)
A determined and anal supervisor could also ask for your first-grade report card. But most of them aren't as bad as that that, and some will back down from unreasonable requests if you confidently but carefully object, especially if a lawyer is present.
How professional are these IOs? Can they usually get personal and reject application simply because we argue with them? It seems we are at their mercy.