Traffic tickets and naturalization (threads merged)

[rick92]

I don't necessarily subscribe to that theory. If the Government wanted to go on a mass denaturalization spree, it (Congress) would simply pass a bill invalidating citizenship gained through naturalization. It need not be some vague reference to a minor speeding ticket.

And I don't think the courts would agree with denaturalizing someone just because of a speeding ticket anyway.

It is vague, because it does not specify the parameters of the question.
Ex. have you eaten corn flakes?
Ex. have you always eaten corn flakes?
Ex. have you always eaten corn flakes in the morning?
Ex. Have you always eaten corn flakes in the morning since you were a kid?

And we can go on and on...... administrative law should be very precise even though jurisprudence on the matter always overturns and creates new exception to the laws... thereby rendering it ineffective and inefficient. And I know lots of people would disagree with what I am saying, adding that this is what makes it so wonderful and flexible.

But even though the govt and congress know about it, our system of laws contrary to other countries is very much based on the final say of the court system when you leave open ended vague questions like the ones on the n-400.

And, they would not mass de-naturalize, they only need to do it on a one by one case basis. This does not apply to speeding tickets, this applies to anything and anybody becoming naturalized who has failed to disclose and/or document anything contrary to the every other document you have filed with USCIS since you came into this country for the first time.

 

[falconusa]

OK...so i just searched ALL OF THE INTERNET (yes ALL of it) and it seems that this "CITATION" question is the most confusing and misleading question on the forms.

Let me elaborate:

The IO asked me "any citations?" I replied NO..He said, "No even tickets?" I said. OH, i got a speeding ticket last year!" He said, "did you pay it? and went through traffic school? I replied, "YES"...we moved on...N-400 approved.

I did not mention my traffic infraction (speeding) in 2000 in NJ where i was in front of a judge and my NY license was suspended for 30 days to drive in NJ...the fine was less than $500.00...this is the only thing that is bothering me...all this talk about DE-NATURALIZATION is, sorry to say, just crazy...all for speeding tickets???? I am more concerned about not getting the OATH letter in case the go in deep in my DMV records.

 

[Bobsmyth]

I wouldn't worry about a minor speeding ticket that occurred outside the statutory period unless USCIS argues that by not disclosing it, it goes against good moral character requirement (something I doubt they would do).

 

[rick92]

I agree with Bob. The bottom line is these people are super busy doing trying to cope and finalize with XX interviews and XX oaths per month.

This ticket was 8 years ago. Nothing to worry about.

 

[AmericanWannabe]

but the letter for oath ceremony does ask for disclosure of all citations including traffic citations.

I thought the letter for oath is given after the interview.

You have to go thru criminal check again after interview is approved?

 

[dms1]

I got a ticket in the mail for running a red light with nice picture of me doing it. But , I was not cited DIRECTLY by an officer just caught on camera.
Do I have to say YES to Part10.D 16 ??

I don't think there is anything to stop a citation being issued indirectly, for example in the mail, and I don't think the wording of the question excludes such citations. However, I believe that most, if not all, camera-captured fines in the US are currently not classed as citations but rather as a penalty on the same level as a toll violation or a parking ticket. This is different from, say, the UK where such tickets are legally enforced citations.

Therefore, the correct answer to the question is indeed most likely 'No', but not necessarily for the reason you stated.

 

[Bobsmyth]

A traffic ticket, however handled, is a citation.

From the legal definition, a traffic ticket is only a citation if it involves being summoned to court. Some traffic tickets require you to go to court to plea, whereas others don't (ex:red light camera, tool booth.)


Citation:
1) a notice to appear in court due to the probable commission of a minor crime such as a traffic violation, failure to keep a dog on a leash, drinking liquor in a park where prohibited, letting a dog loose without a leash, and in some states for possession of a small amount of marijuana. Failure to appear can result in a warrant for the citee's arrest.

 

[Bobsmyth]

I thought the letter for oath is given after the interview.

You have to go thru criminal check again after interview is approved?

The oath letter is sometimes given at interview, but not always. In any case, you must meet the requirements of good moral character up until your oath date regardless of when you obtain oath letter.

 

[dms1]

From the legal definition, a traffic ticket is only a citation if it involves being summoned to court. Some traffic tickets require you to go to court to plea, whereas others don't (ex:red light camera, tool booth.)


Citation:
1) a notice to appear in court due to the probable commission of a minor crime such as a traffic violation, failure to keep a dog on a leash, drinking liquor in a park where prohibited, letting a dog loose without a leash, and in some states for possession of a small amount of marijuana. Failure to appear can result in a warrant for the citee's arrest.

I agree totally. The problem is that we talk about "traffic tickets" when that term has no legal definition. The real point I was trying to make is that it appeared "bkd52" was suggesting that a citation is only a citation when issued in person, or that a citation not issued in person doesn't have to be declared. I don't believe either of these are true.

 

[Jackolantern]

I don't necessarily subscribe to that theory. If the Government wanted to go on a mass denaturalization spree, it (Congress) would simply pass a bill invalidating citizenship gained through naturalization. It need not be some vague reference to a minor speeding ticket.

Getting a majority of Congress and the President to agree on that would be VERY difficult, considering that the law would apply to millions of existing citizens and not mere ignorable aliens. And a number of politicians are naturalized citizens or have parents who are naturalized citizens. I would expect such a blanket denaturalization regardless of fault or fraud to be found unconstitutional by the courts (and such a law is guaranteed to be challenged in court).

However, the existing laws on the books allow them to denaturalize anybody who lied on the N-400. The only thing stopping them from doing a mass denaturalization is the money to bring masses of people to court in order to put them through the denaturalization. If something happens to trigger more fear in the population (like another 9/11), it won't be that hard for them to get the money to spend. The effort will be sold to the public as a way to get deport criminals and terrorists who naturalized fraudulently, even if in reality most people they'd go after are those with minor undisclosed offenses.

 

[Jackolantern]

I did not mention my traffic infraction (speeding) in 2000 in NJ where i was in front of a judge and my NY license was suspended for 30 days to drive in NJ...the fine was less than $500.00...this is the only thing that is bothering me...all this talk about DE-NATURALIZATION is, sorry to say, just crazy...all for speeding tickets????

Not for speeding tickets, but for lying under oath. Remember, they spent millions of dollars to investigate and prosecute Bill Clinton's lying, even though what he was lying about wasn't illegal. And Marion Jones went to jail not for using steroids, but for lying about it.

Also note that the instructions about not having to supply documentation for traffic offenses are referring to violations for which the ONLY penalty was a fine under $500 and/or points on your license. In your case, you got a suspension, not just mere points or a fine, so you can't hide behind that exemption.

 

[Avalon]

Traffic Ticket - Running Red Light

Yes, I am almost ready to apply N-400 and guess what, I got a traffic ticket. The officer told me that I did not stopped at Red Light and just went through. I do not remember doing that but did not argue much as it was Dec 31, 2008 night and I was returning from the New Year's Party. I may be in a hurry to come home or just tired and sleepy. The fine is about $175. There is a court date setup in the last week of Jan 2009.

Should I go to the court and argue? I do not remember jumping the red light. May be it was yellow when I went through it.

How is this going to affect my way to citizenship?

 

[nkm-oct23]

A red light camera ticket is a citation because it is reviewed and signed by a officer from the police force.

 

[cregan]

Avalon, I supposedly did the same thing. I turn right at a red light (no indication of do not turn right) and got citied for running the red light. I asked tons of people with similar situation and they told me that winning in court would be almost impossible as you are defending yourself against the law. I might sound pessimistic, but I thought that to be kinda true. So I did my crash course because I didn't want more court and traffic fees that the actual ticket. Just my 2 cents

 

[AmericanWannabe]

Yes, I am almost ready to apply N-400 and guess what, I got a traffic ticket. The officer told me that I did not stopped at Red Light and just went through. I do not remember doing that but did not argue much as it was Dec 31, 2008 night and I was returning from the New Year's Party. I may be in a hurry to come home or just tired and sleepy. The fine is about $175. There is a court date setup in the last week of Jan 2009.

Should I go to the court and argue? I do not remember jumping the red light. May be it was yellow when I went through it.

How is this going to affect my way to citizenship?

This is too trivial to worry about. Just mention it on N-400. Since the penaly is just $175 under $500, you do not even have to provide supporting documents.

 

[falconusa]

Jacklantern! Well in this case then should I be concerned..send this info to immigration while I wait for my oath letter? I get worried quickly and now this issue concerns me or should I "let it go"

 

[rick92]

As I said before. Let it go. It's over with.

 

[Jackolantern]

Jacklantern! Well in this case then should I be concerned..send this info to immigration while I wait for my oath letter? I get worried quickly and now this issue concerns me or should I "let it go"

Ideally you should have mentioned it before, but now the damage has been done and you might stir up more trouble trying to do something about it now. Hopefully if there ever is another attempt at mass denaturalization*, they will focus on criminal records rather than purged DMV records.


*they attempted a denaturalization rampage back in the 1990s and the courts stopped them saying that each case must be done through a Federal court, not through the simpler administrative process they wanted to pursue. However, the courts didn't say they couldn't denaturalize people. The restriction was about *how* they should do it, not *if* they could do it.

 

[falconusa]

I am going to stop worrying about it. I am over worrying for no reason...I did not mean it so whatever happens...happens.

Thanks

 

[warlord]

Hi all friends

I am back after enjoying my green card life and getting ready for my citizenship process.

of course like all of you my wife and myself received few speeding tickets during these 5 years. my wife has one in her record and I waived mine with defensing driving. we were never arrested nor convicted for this reason.

Can anyone explain in briefly what should we do in this case?

Normally you wouldn't have to disclose any simple speeding tickets underr $500/non-DUI. However, this case seems different as you waived one by taking a defensive driving course. Normally you would just pay the fine and end of story. Seems either you had gotten quite a number of fines or you got a reckless driving charge for them to give you a choice of taking a defensive driving record.

So this situation doesn't seem to easily fit into the under $500/non-DUI catagory...