Incognegro
Registered Users (C)
yup
Traffic tickets and naturalization (threads merged)
- Thread starter patel789
- Start date
yup
Nowhere on naturalization guide and instructions on N-400 it state about not to disclose a traffic ticket...Read very carefully, nowhere it states that applicants don't need to disclose traffic tickets regardless those tickets were under $500 or not, or whether there was an arrest or not as a result of those traffic violations...Nowhere...Instead, it's VERY clearly stated everywhere that ALL citations MUST need to be reported. Traffic tickets are citations. So they MUST be reported no matter what.
Actually what USCIS has stated on naturalization guide and N-400 instructions about traffic tickets is not submitting documentations if fine on those tickets was under $500. Not submitting documentation about those traffic tickets are not same like not disclosing them, and that's what people are not understanding. It could be because they have some fear to get a denial or delaying...Besides, all people care about is just to get naturalized as soon as possible and without disclosing anything if it's possible. Those who have had criminal history then they have no choice just to disclose it because they know FBI background checks will reveal their history anyway; otherwise believe me people will not reveal that one too...trust me...
Just because some "immigration officers" and immigration attorneys have said their PERSONAL OPINION of not disclosing it..people are taking those personal opinion on the face value...even though they know that "immigration officers" over the phone don't know nothing about immigration laws and they are just high school graduate people who give wrong information 96% of the time. And immigration lawyers are well known to mess up the cases by their wrong information.
Also, some people have said that some immigration officers at their interview told them that traffic tickets are not a big deal...and don't need to be reported...But people should think hard that if traffic tickets are not a big deal and if these tickets don't need to be reported then why USCIS haven't changed their instructions on N-400 and on naturalization guide about disclosing all citations...and why many applicants were drilled and even denied because of traffic tickets...And even though there are some courts cases out there wherein it's noted that traffic tickets alone cannot be the reason to deny a citizenship application, but then there are many cases as well wherein courts denied the appeal from those whose citizenship application was denied because of traffic tickets.
By the way, denial of an application based on traffic tickets is one thing, but deny the application or revoking the citizenship in the future on not mentioning everything what it's asked on the application truthfully under Oath and Penalty of perjury is another. I understand having some traffic tickets might not make an application to be denied, but not being truthful about them on the application (as they are citiations) as it's required on the application will very much a ground to revoke the citizenship in the future. USCIS is not saying that it's up to people to decide what they should disclose or what they shouldn't when it comes to traffic tickets; rather they have clearly stated that all citations must be reported. But people are deciding by their own as to whether or not they should disclose traffic tickets, or whether or not disclosing a traffic ticket is worthy for USCIS' attention or its impact on citizenship application...To me, let the USCIS to decide whether traffic tickets would impact an application or not...I would follow what USCIS has stated about it on their instructions than deciding anything on it by my own...as if I'm the judge and I'm the jury on this issue...
I know some people might say that noone could be deported for having some traffic tickets and for not reporting them, but they know nothing. Govt. has revoked and deported, and will revoke and deport anyone who concealed and misrpresented a material fact on the application...I've seen more than thousands of times...And always remember, whenever govt. wants to find a dirt on someone for a reason, they would try anything and everything...believe me...So I personally wouldn't be an advocate on traffic tickets by myself as to whether it's a big deal or not, or whether tickets should be reported or not...I rather play by the rules than risking my and my loved one's immigration life in the future....
Below is the instruction to read what USCIS is saying there....
"Note that unless a traffic incident was alcohol or drug related, you do not need to submit documentation for traffic fines and incidents that did not involve an actual arrest if the only penalty was a fine less than $500 and/or points on your driver’s license."
Johnny Cash (member of this forum)
Actually what USCIS has stated on naturalization guide and N-400 instructions about traffic tickets is not submitting documentations if fine on those tickets was under $500. Not submitting documentation about those traffic tickets are not same like not disclosing them, and that's what people are not understanding. It could be because they have some fear to get a denial or delaying...Besides, all people care about is just to get naturalized as soon as possible and without disclosing anything if it's possible. Those who have had criminal history then they have no choice just to disclose it because they know FBI background checks will reveal their history anyway; otherwise believe me people will not reveal that one too...trust me...
Just because some "immigration officers" and immigration attorneys have said their PERSONAL OPINION of not disclosing it..people are taking those personal opinion on the face value...even though they know that "immigration officers" over the phone don't know nothing about immigration laws and they are just high school graduate people who give wrong information 96% of the time. And immigration lawyers are well known to mess up the cases by their wrong information.
Also, some people have said that some immigration officers at their interview told them that traffic tickets are not a big deal...and don't need to be reported...But people should think hard that if traffic tickets are not a big deal and if these tickets don't need to be reported then why USCIS haven't changed their instructions on N-400 and on naturalization guide about disclosing all citations...and why many applicants were drilled and even denied because of traffic tickets...And even though there are some courts cases out there wherein it's noted that traffic tickets alone cannot be the reason to deny a citizenship application, but then there are many cases as well wherein courts denied the appeal from those whose citizenship application was denied because of traffic tickets.
By the way, denial of an application based on traffic tickets is one thing, but deny the application or revoking the citizenship in the future on not mentioning everything what it's asked on the application truthfully under Oath and Penalty of perjury is another. I understand having some traffic tickets might not make an application to be denied, but not being truthful about them on the application (as they are citiations) as it's required on the application will very much a ground to revoke the citizenship in the future. USCIS is not saying that it's up to people to decide what they should disclose or what they shouldn't when it comes to traffic tickets; rather they have clearly stated that all citations must be reported. But people are deciding by their own as to whether or not they should disclose traffic tickets, or whether or not disclosing a traffic ticket is worthy for USCIS' attention or its impact on citizenship application...To me, let the USCIS to decide whether traffic tickets would impact an application or not...I would follow what USCIS has stated about it on their instructions than deciding anything on it by my own...as if I'm the judge and I'm the jury on this issue...
I know some people might say that noone could be deported for having some traffic tickets and for not reporting them, but they know nothing. Govt. has revoked and deported, and will revoke and deport anyone who concealed and misrpresented a material fact on the application...I've seen more than thousands of times...And always remember, whenever govt. wants to find a dirt on someone for a reason, they would try anything and everything...believe me...So I personally wouldn't be an advocate on traffic tickets by myself as to whether it's a big deal or not, or whether tickets should be reported or not...I rather play by the rules than risking my and my loved one's immigration life in the future....
Below is the instruction to read what USCIS is saying there....
"Note that unless a traffic incident was alcohol or drug related, you do not need to submit documentation for traffic fines and incidents that did not involve an actual arrest if the only penalty was a fine less than $500 and/or points on your driver’s license."
Johnny Cash (member of this forum)
Because the topic has already been covered ad nauseum in the past and a sticky already exists on the subject.
http://forums.immigration.com/showthread.php?81187-Traffic-tickets-and-naturalization-(threads-merged)
Starting a new ticket thread with the title Warning !!! is duplicating what is already out there, including all the info you reposted.
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Strangely enough, after more than 1000 people reviewed another thread dedicated to exact same subject** no one bothered to call OP a troll , rather there seemed to be excitement and support of the latest view posted on the thread that USCIS "DON'T CARE" about non-disclosure of traffic tickets.
So, as long as one encourages readers to lie, to defeat the purpose of N-400, to engage in concealment of material fact and risk denial, 5 year bar and possible future revocation of Citizenship and deportation, it is considered OK. There is no trolling, no one notices that sticky exists and no one bothers those posters who exalt in advocating concealment of material fact , it is all good and dandy.
But here comes another poster, who merely alerted all visitors of the fact that N-400 indeed requires disclosure of all and any citations for any reason and warned of the consequences of concealing a material fact , and guess what? A number of posters are ready to gang up on him and accuse him of trolling, posting a thread similar to sticky and , in short, making everybody upset with urging people not to do stupid mistakes and risk denial of N-400.
What does it tell about those who act so inconsistently and in defiance of logic?
___________________________________________________________________
**Titled N-400 - Traffic Citations did not mentioned , started by zeel50 on August 14th 2006, last post by goro on July 25th 2011, with "that makes total sense" comment in reply to "THEY DON'T CARE" posted by dmx11,
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No one here is suggesting to lie or engage in concealment of material fact. The sticky at the top (in plain sight) was created to consolidate all threads related to traffic tickets into one area in order to avoid newbies from posting the same thing over and over again. If you have something to say, say it there.
False. Once again, refer to page 60 of the document linked elsewhere in this thread. If you still don't understand what the document states, work on improving your reading comprehension.
The only thing deliberate is your incessant trolling.
I am merely quoting instructions provided in an official USCIS document. I highly doubt that USCIS would purposely put applicants in harm's way.
'Merely' is not creating a flashy title (without substance, BTW) and posting in caps, enlarged font and in red colour. That is mauvais ton in any forum.
The bottom line is that this issue was discussed so many times that newbies, after reading all relevant discussions, should be able to make up their minds regarding minor traffic tickets. Also, please stop reposting long posts by Johny Cash - it is very annoying. He does not have (neither do we) the last word in this manner. Look up the statistics in this very same thread and realise that your 'warning' is nothing but a drop in the ocean of useful information.
Please do tell us. Or rather not
iwant2bAmerican
Registered Users (C)
Had my interview today and am now a citizen! Yay! I hadn't marked that I received citations (under $500) on the n-400. When the IO asked me the question, "have you ever been arrested, cited, etc.." I said I did receive a couple of traffic citations under $500 and told her I had the court dispositions (certified) if she wanted to see them. She nodded and I showed her. Barely looked at what it said, I guess she just assumed they were paid for. She didn't even make a correction on the N-400 form. She left it the way it was.
Good luck everyone!
Good luck everyone!
Only if the IO decides to make an issue out of it.
Incognegro
Registered Users (C)
just make sure you have 9 receipts and you should be ok
Is there any other place or option to get a Receipt/Court disposition for traffic ticket (red light violation, under <$500, happened 12 years back) when my Superior Court said that they didn't have any record as they expunged the old records? The only proof that I have is the letter from Court that says they don't have any record.
In Washington state, the USCIS had a habit of rejecting N-400 applications because of infractions. They were sued and lost a class action suit, so they had to re-consider a large number of rejected N-400s. After that, I heard their behaviour toward traffic tickets and other infractions changed dramatically.
I have receipts for 7 of them and another one I think I can get it. That leaves a parking ticket which I got 10 years ago and not sure if the court would have a record of it.
speeding citation / contested
Hello,
I was told to check this sticky, which I did before posting my question, but can't find an answer for my specific situation.
I got a speeding ticket 3 years ago. I contested it, got denied, made an appeal, I lost, paid the ticket, did the traffic school. Case closed. (WAS LESS THAN $500)
I would like to know if the fact that I contested the ticket puts me in a position where I have to mention it and have some proof I paid for it, or if I just need to mention it if the inspector asks me about my record...?
Thanks for the input.
Hello,
I was told to check this sticky, which I did before posting my question, but can't find an answer for my specific situation.
I got a speeding ticket 3 years ago. I contested it, got denied, made an appeal, I lost, paid the ticket, did the traffic school. Case closed. (WAS LESS THAN $500)
I would like to know if the fact that I contested the ticket puts me in a position where I have to mention it and have some proof I paid for it, or if I just need to mention it if the inspector asks me about my record...?
Thanks for the input.
There is more than enough to answer your question if you look up this thread. Particularly the last two pages where I copy-pasted (to much dismay of other users) the good posts by JohnnyCash.
It all boils down to this:
1. Having speeding ticket, contesting a speeding ticket , being convicted of speeding is not an indication of bad moral character. It is not an offense that will bar you from applying or cause revocation of your Citizenship in future.
2. It is very important to be truthful in your N-400. If you lie, or, even if you believe you are not lying but it merely appears that you have concealed a material fact, you can be denied of Citizenship, barred for the next 5 years and , in some cases, your Citizenship can be revoked if believed to be obtained by concealing a material fact, all the way to be deported at some unknown point of time in future.
3. There is much argument here whether you should or should not disclose your speeding ticket. Everyone has nothing but his own opinion and interpretation of what they read in linked guidelines and N-400 instructions.
4. The undisputed fact is that N-400 , in question 16.D unambiguously requires to answer if you ever were cited by any law enforcement agent for any reason.
These people here are playing word games, saying ticket is not a citation and they furthermore recall personal experiences of not disclosing their own traffic tickets and not having any problems with it.
None of these people, who boast of knowing better than anyone else what the definition of "citation" and "any reason" is, remember, NONE of these people assuring you that you can conceal your ticket, NONE OF THEM are in power to do anything once you follow their advise and get burned. And they carry zero liability, nothing will happen to them if you get nailed with "denied, barred for 5 years, no good moral character" decision. keep this in mind as you read all their posts.
5. It is also undisputed fact (if you read thoroughly all pages of this thread) that REAL people were denied and barred from applying for citizenship for failing to mention their traffic tickets. One woman (she also posted in one of earlier pages of this thread) , who serves in military, was denied and barred for 5 years BECAUSE she did NOT mention a speeding ticket that was DISMISSED (!!!).
In another word, she reasonably assumed that citation doesn't count since it was dismissed by court (thus invalidated), HOWEVER, the adjudicating officer didn't think so and interpreted her "NO" answer as concealment of fact, a deliberate misleading of officer, and as a consequence found applicant lacking a good moral character (enough to deny your N400 and bar you for next 5 years from re-applying).
6. Now, you read all of the 5 points above (along with pages of this thread), and make your own decision what you want to do.
Good luck.
It all boils down to this:
1. Having speeding ticket, contesting a speeding ticket , being convicted of speeding is not an indication of bad moral character. It is not an offense that will bar you from applying or cause revocation of your Citizenship in future.
2. It is very important to be truthful in your N-400. If you lie, or, even if you believe you are not lying but it merely appears that you have concealed a material fact, you can be denied of Citizenship, barred for the next 5 years and , in some cases, your Citizenship can be revoked if believed to be obtained by concealing a material fact, all the way to be deported at some unknown point of time in future.
3. There is much argument here whether you should or should not disclose your speeding ticket. Everyone has nothing but his own opinion and interpretation of what they read in linked guidelines and N-400 instructions.
4. The undisputed fact is that N-400 , in question 16.D unambiguously requires to answer if you ever were cited by any law enforcement agent for any reason.
These people here are playing word games, saying ticket is not a citation and they furthermore recall personal experiences of not disclosing their own traffic tickets and not having any problems with it.
None of these people, who boast of knowing better than anyone else what the definition of "citation" and "any reason" is, remember, NONE of these people assuring you that you can conceal your ticket, NONE OF THEM are in power to do anything once you follow their advise and get burned. And they carry zero liability, nothing will happen to them if you get nailed with "denied, barred for 5 years, no good moral character" decision. keep this in mind as you read all their posts.
5. It is also undisputed fact (if you read thoroughly all pages of this thread) that REAL people were denied and barred from applying for citizenship for failing to mention their traffic tickets. One woman (she also posted in one of earlier pages of this thread) , who serves in military, was denied and barred for 5 years BECAUSE she did NOT mention a speeding ticket that was DISMISSED (!!!).
In another word, she reasonably assumed that citation doesn't count since it was dismissed by court (thus invalidated), HOWEVER, the adjudicating officer didn't think so and interpreted her "NO" answer as concealment of fact, a deliberate misleading of officer, and as a consequence found applicant lacking a good moral character (enough to deny your N400 and bar you for next 5 years from re-applying).
6. Now, you read all of the 5 points above (along with pages of this thread), and make your own decision what you want to do.
Good luck.
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@KASPAR:
Once again, please stop misinforming people. An official document, reposted multiple times, clearly instructs applicants not to disclose minor traffic tickets that did not result in an arrest. Unless an individual reading said document has extremely poor command of the English language, there is no other way to interpret it.
By the way, we are still waiting for all the links you've promised to provide. Cutting and pasting basic information from websites of law firms doesn't count. I once came across one of those websites where the lawyer's instruction in regards to traffic tickets was to answer "YES" to the "Have you ever committed a crime for which you were not arrested" question, as all traffic offenses are crimes.
Once again, please stop misinforming people. An official document, reposted multiple times, clearly instructs applicants not to disclose minor traffic tickets that did not result in an arrest. Unless an individual reading said document has extremely poor command of the English language, there is no other way to interpret it.
By the way, we are still waiting for all the links you've promised to provide. Cutting and pasting basic information from websites of law firms doesn't count. I once came across one of those websites where the lawyer's instruction in regards to traffic tickets was to answer "YES" to the "Have you ever committed a crime for which you were not arrested" question, as all traffic offenses are crimes.
Where does it say "DO NOT REPORT TRAFFIC TICKETS"?
It says you must reveal the citations that resulted in arrest, and in any event that is an UNDATED link to a text of Naturalization FAQ's posted on USCIS website, written by who knows whom. It doesn't have reference of authority, signature or stamp of memo or any CFR to support it.
What I refer to is:
#1. Question 16.D on N-400 (no one can dispute its authority), where it UNAMBIGUOUSLY asks to answer YES or NO to a simple question whether you have ever been cited by any law enforcement officer for any reason.
Now, you can argue until the end of the world about definition of those words highlighted in red, but the fact is you are not the officer who will be adjudicating each individual case and each officer can interpret those words according to his or her understanding of what those words mean (not everyone will agree with you that traffic tickets are not citations merely because they don't request court appearance. We all know how often word "cited" is used in the context of phrase referring to a receipt of traffic ticket.). It is only your opinion and your interpretation (or that of the supervising IO who instructed you during oath ceremony) that minor traffic violations do not count as citations as the word is used in the question 16.D of N-400.
But, just as you , and those like-minded as you, hold on to your opinion about this , there are also cases of people who got DENIED Citizenship for not disclosing their traffic tickets.
I did not forget about what I said and will post the links when I get to it (now that I have accumulated more than 15 replies posting links shouldn't be a problem).
But I am not going to haphazardly and chaotically do so just to post links.
First, I will dig through 89 pages of this thread to pull the case of a woman who was denied N-400 on grounds of lack of good moral character , because she answered NO while she had a record of DISMISSED in court traffic ticket ( a) she got ticket, b) she contested it in court , c) court dismissed her (found her not guilty of infraction), d) she didn't count it as valid offense since it was dismissed and answered NO to 16.D or similar Q., e) she was denied N-400 and barred for 5 years from re-applying, for concealment of material fact and lying to USCIS officer. Period.
Once I find her case and post a link to it, I will follow with more links, including to various opinions of attorneys, references to AILA CIS liaison meeting on this subject and so on.
Hopefully, I will be able to sum it all up with fairly conclusive supporting evidence of the necessity to disclose traffic violations and put an end to 89 pages of ambiguity that is putting people in harms way and induces them to unnecessarily risk their future.
Regards,
KASPAR
P.S. OK, I found it, here it is! The user nellybaby, I am copy-pasting her post below:
25th April 2010 11:08 PM #2484
nellybabe
nellybabe is offline Registered User
Join Date Dec 2008
Iceway,
The IO didnt ask me about the citation, i got a denial notice about 2 weeks later stating that I did not disclose my citations in my application and therefore I have been seen as a person with lack of good moral character and that I have to wait for 5 years before I could reapply.
Nellybabe
The above post is #2484 , on this thread, page 83.
http://forums.immigration.com/showthread.php?81187-Traffic-tickets-and-naturalization-%28threads-merged%29&p=2179739#post2179739
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You sure do not seem to suffer from extreme modesty. 89 pages of ambiguity and one special newbie who is planning to set everythinjg (and everyone) straight. Has it ever occurred to you that 89 "pages of ambiguity" represent the actual ambiguity that exists in the current SOP of USCIS IOs? People have reported very different experience with respect to traffic tickets (sometimes completely opposite experience) which can only mean that uniformity does not exist in this matter. You, on the other hand, want to disregard the statistics that is based on numerous actual accounts of N-400 applicants and prove your point by referring to a highly unusual isolated case?
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