TN Visa rejected, what to change

Y

yipingliu

New Member
Hello all,

I recently applied for my TN visa at the Blaine POE with my application. My company had Fragomen fill out all the details for the application. I went to apply yesterday on Sept. 24th and was rejected. The role I'll be taking at the company is called Software Engineer and the one on the letter says Developer with the NAFTA category as Computer Systems Analyst. The officer rejected denied my application based with two items:
  1. If I'm going in as an engineer then I need an engineering degree. (Almost all software engineers have a computer science degree, didn't think he understood what I was trying to say)
  2. Developer does not fit under the NAFTA occupation of Computer Systems Analyst
He also marked up my Visa letter quite a bit with some key words which I've attached. What should I do going forward to adjust this TN application?
 

Attachments

  • job details.jpg
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Fragomen typically does a pathetic job on TN, and this is no exception. They described a CSA, but requested TN in Engineering. Since you don't have an Engr degree, they should simply have asked for a TN in CSA, and ignore the wrong internal title that your firm is using (which is meaningless to CBP).
Software engineers going for TN do NOT have a comp science dgree, they have an engineering degree.
So, hire another firm, and go for CSA category, removing the term Engineer from your petition. Like I said, it doesn;t matter what the firm calls you.
 
Liu,
The other option would be to file a 129 and get it approved and then take it to the border. My colleague recently got a TN from the border close to Washington, ( Sumas ), but had it approved via 129 before going there. They did face a lot of tough questions , but eventually was given a TN.
Good Luck.
 
An I-129 submitted with that paperwork would have been rejected by USCIS. It's not the method or the CBP, it's the petition that is defective.
 
Lui, the best way is to look into the job description of Computer system Analyst and then match your responsibilities matching to that.

The petition is the issue here..since the CBP folks read the petition and match it with the CSA responsibilities.

As Nelsona mentioned you cannot be a software engineer client role without a engineering degree. CSA does not have to be a engineer. According to the definition in NAFTA.. "you have to possess a baccalaureate degree, post-secondary diploma or degree in a field that's related to computer systems analyst work. The U.S. BLS recommends a minimum of a bachelor's degree involving computers, as well as courses in business and management information"
 
Computer system analysts will not be managing teams and they shall not develop...Team Management and Custom Development is outside the scope of CSA. Hence lot of red flags underlined by him for the rejection
 
Just got the same situation with internal title of business system analyst under CSA TN. My company had Fragomen do the letter and they produced a 5 page letter talking about company fact, job duty, and my education. The CBP reviewed the documents and based on my Canadian degree (bachelor of applied science in engineering, option in management science) it was rejected because they deem it not related to computer science. I have 6+ years of experience in positions related to CSA duties, but that's not considered under TN right?

I tried to reason with the officer based on the department of occupational outlook handbook, as the job duties for my role essentially is CSA but just with the different word in title, but it was not useful. I tried going over courses from transcript but it seems that they only consider a course relevant if it had the word computer in it. For example probability and staticitics is not a related course, even tho that forms the basics of understanding data.

I also tried to stress the option in management science part that mimics a MBA which is mentioned in the OOH, since management sciences is a broad interdisciplinary study of problem solving and decision making in organizations. It uses a combination of analytical models, data science, and behavioural sciences to address societies' most complex problems.

Any suggestion what to do next? I'll obviously speak to the employer and Fragomen, but with a entry withdrawn attached to my passport would applying for I-129 also cause scrutiny? Additionally, I was leaving from Toronto airport and to save money I would prefer to apply at land border (buffalo or niagara falls) instead of buying another ticket at full price, is that at all possible? I know it's recommended to apply at same POE otherwise more questions could follow?
 
Hi have read on numerous times that job title is not necessary in the offer / TN letter but according to this checklist found from various immg. sites it seems all the documents should be in the following manner.... (atleast present your case with the below mentioned documents) which does includes JOB TITLE, Details of job description etc.

All have to be careful for the TN classification, job title and its described duties.....

https://www.murthy.com/2014/06/18/cbp-releases-poe-checklist-for-tns/
 
Yes I was given that checklist from the agent and I believe my documents have all relevant boxes ticked.

The thing is where it says, the degree must relate to the job applied for, is where it worries me now. As they now seem to be fixated on CSA positions must possess a computer science related degree or otherwise not eligible.

Per https://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/15-1121.00, which is listed as related link in OOH website, the knowledge of a CSA should include: Computers and Electronics, Mathematics, Administration and Management. All of which I have related courses, so I hope to use that as reference the next time I go. Additionally it also lists Business System Analyst as reported job titles.

I went on a Sunday afternoon during long weekend, so I'll try a regular working day next time for a more experience officer hopefully.
 
Jixca, do not go back to the border unless and until you fix *something* in your petition, and can point tp what has been fixed. CBP views repeated attempts to enter with same petition as fraudulent. "Port shopping" or agent-shopping is frowned upon and could get you barred.
 
I've let the company and lawyers know on the situation, now waiting on next steps. One of the alternate they suggested may be to apply under Engineer since I hold the degree, however with the job duties matching that of CSA I'm not sure if using Engineer would be suitable at all, the closest match on OOH is computer hardware engineer that will do the design of system and services. Or should we stick with CSA and back up the education with stronger reference to OOH and other publications?
 
You have to describe your job duties accurately. There is a little leeway on education, if you can point to course load. You can't just cut and paste the OOH. CBP will look up the OOH and see how it matches your job description. It can't be "tailored" to OOH though.
 
The attorneys came back with this.

Based on the Admissibility Case Officer's de novo review, the decision was based on two conclusions:
1. He found that the position of Business Systems Analyst, as described, does not fit within the occupation of Computer Systems Analyst.
2. He indicated that my degree is not closely related to a computer related field, but rather an engineering field, and refused to consider an evaluation based on education and experience that would grant a computer related degree.
Click to expand...

Is a new/revised letter containing the 2 response below to USCIS or border addressing both points enough to warrant as a new petition or do I need to drastically change like the TN category applied? I don't want to attempt again and be seen with the same petition request, as this may likely be the last attempt my employer will consider as well as my own will to remain working in the US.

The first point will be revising the job duties to closely match OOH and ONet description of CSA, since the old one had more tech jargon related to my industry that may not be familiar. That is, revise the language to be more closely matching that of typical computer IT systems.

For the second, I still plan to highlight my courseload (>50%) that are relevant based on OOH/ONet description of knowledge required for CSA (Computers and Electronics, Mathematics, Administration and Management) and thereby prove that I have a closely related degree?
 
1. This will probably work.
2. This may work, but not a slam dunk. The previous attempt, trying to link your degree course load with your experience was completely unacceptable, and was correctly rejected out-of-hand. Experience for CSA can only be used if one has a north american diploma (not degree), and are presented separately to satisfy the diploma+experience requirement, not blended together. So, in this case your experience means nothing at the border. Your petition will stand or fall based on their determination that the course load in your engineering degree was sufficiently weighted to CSA skills.
 
yipingliu said:
What should I do going forward to adjust this TN application?
Click to expand...
The letter you attached makes it clear & unambiguous that your offer is software developer. That is not a 'computer systems analyst' offer. The only adjustment you can make is to apply for a different job with different job duties.

BTW, bogus CSA applications like yours are the reasons that border officers treat authentic CSA applicants like myself with such suspicion. It is not appreciated.
 
jixca said:
Just got the same situation with internal title of business system analyst under CSA TN.
[..]
I tried to reason with the officer based on the department of occupational outlook handbook, as the job duties for my role essentially is CSA
Click to expand...
I am not surprised; "Business System Analyst" as a title certainly implies you're tasked with improving business systems, and not computer systems. If your job duties truly match the CSA job description, then the company's decision to use that position title is mystifying.

I also tried to stress the option in management science part that mimics a MBA which is mentioned in the OOH, since management sciences is a broad interdisciplinary study of problem solving and decision making in organizations. It uses a combination of analytical models, data science, and behavioural sciences to address societies' most complex problems.
Click to expand...
That is a really tough sale, because you're not only trying to convince the officer that your degree is in reality a "Business Administration" degree (even though it says 'engineering'), but also this BA equivalent is directly related to "Computer Systems".

jixca said:
For the second, I still plan to highlight my courseload (>50%) that are relevant based on OOH/ONet description of knowledge required for CSA (Computers and Electronics, Mathematics, Administration and Management) and thereby prove that I have a closely related degree?
Click to expand...
Perhaps you will be successful and I wish you the best, but I'm not sure if any level of pontificating can overcome the natural assumption that an "Engineering" degree can only relate to "Engineering" jobs.
 
It is bewildering people are referring to individuals who are coming here for help as BOGUS applicants. There can never be an apples to apples match of the JD and the qualification. Most "AUTHENTIC" applicants here are definitely writing some code, though they will claim at the border that they are not doing any sort of programming. I am still assuming this is a forum to help people, not a place for ugly debates.
-- yipingliu
I would take the advice of what others have said on this forum and convince your employer to provide you with a letter that matches the CSA requirements.
 
TnRaju said:
. I am still assuming this is a forum to help people, not a place for ugly debates.
.
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This forum is a place to help people get visas legally. It is not and never has been a place to help people bend the law to gain immigration benefits they are not entitled to (not that anyone is “entitled” to an immigration benefit anyway). If as you claim people often lie to get visas then those people are not the type of people to be “helped” here.
 
Amen. It is difficult to listen to one who claims that people often lie to get TN, but bemoan when a CBP officer denies a very weak case -- and then suggest they lie.
 
TnRaju said:
-- yipingliu
I would take the advice of what others have said on this forum and convince your employer to provide you with a letter that matches the CSA requirements.
Click to expand...
This may indeed work; if the officer is not suspicious this is the same job being offered with fake job duties being listed.

Obviously the risk is that the lie will be discovered and then he could easily be barred from future TN applications or even from entry.
 
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