Pushing of I 485 filling as an interim relief or not

nyc8300,

Are you core member of IV? How true is your following statement?


nyc8300 said:
In light of the pros and cons of this proposal IV has decided not to pursue anything but look for a long term solution i.e. CIR.
In other words, let the congress bail the immigrants out; however when it does happen, it will be a IV victory for its unrelenting efforts.

Waiting for this....
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I485 relief then CIR

Folks,
Me-> First time post, long time follower. Kudos! to folks who have been active and helping others tide over their issues.

My 2 cents on this...

We really don't have much say on CIR. I feel I-485 relief makes a lot of sense, since we(EB based) are the only group pushing for it and is non controversial. As for CIR, we are a spec in the desert. Even if we all unite on CIR, which we are, still it's a puny number with reference to ~10-12 Million illegal aliens that get affected. Also, last time around SKIL bill was part of the Managers bill(sic), what i understand it was unanimously agreed upon!. Here the illegal immigration will take the center stage. Ideally, if we can separate the SKIL bill and other EB provisions from CIR then that'll be perfect.

So, here we can push for I-485 relief and try to get that through, and just hope that we have enough traction with the other groups to get CIR in too.

It's not a choice between I-485 relief and CIR, it's more like first I-485 and then CIR!! :)
 
Do you think Congress will address EB issue time and again? They have thousands of other priority issue. If we ask for I 485 filing, we will loose our turn and forget about any second EB demand in next five years. Give me any example in the US legislative historey, where congress has addressed Immigration issue within six months. Please read the whole thread carefully.
Please read the post # 26 in this thread as follow:


Quote:
Originally Posted by priyargc
Unitednations,

I am impressed with your micro level true analysis for this issue. You highlighted the potential long term consequences of I 485 without a priority date. You clearly explain with example of person A and Person B. It is highly persuasive about how system will be abused and how people with India, China and Phili will be suffer. Before reading this, I didn't realized that.

What is your openion about the potential threat for retrogression ending provision due to interim push of I 485 filling? I posted as follow in my starting post:

" If Congress accept interim demand of I 485 filling and bussinesses push H1B increase, it may seriously jeopardize further retrogression ending provisions for EB community as Congress is not going to address EB relief time and again. According to many experts, CIR future is uncertain. If I 485 filling and H1B increase accepted as an interim relief and CIR fails, there won’t be any EB relief for 3 to 4 years and whole EB community will be in dark tunnel for many years. Last EB relief was given in 2001.
4. The opposing group arguing that instead of pushing single agenda, lets go for full retrogression ending provisions when ever get earliest chance. Congress has not addressed EB/H1B since 2001 and they have to give something to EB/H1B as pressure is accumulating."

I would appreciate your reply

Unitednations replied:

Yes, I agree congress will not want to address this issue over and over again.

We will only get one bite of the apple.

It has come up over and over again that they are in no mood of interim solutions but want long term solutions.

If it is granted 485 filing without priority date then it will be even tougher to convince congress that people are being harmed. Although people may want blanket filing of 485; it is one of those things that people will get restless really fast as there would be never ending retrogression. It would be a catastrophic mistake for people from severely retrogressed countries unless there is controls put in place, making it difficult to apply (either waiting period, or only working visas).

If there is a blanket opening up of 485 filings; everyone will come to see the mistake later and it will become very difficult to repair it. It would be difficult to even see them increasing the quota to 300,000 when there could be potentially millions of people with 485's filed.

I don't think people really realize how many people would be eligible to file and would file.
__________________
ny.united@gmail.com



Skill_Exploited said:
Folks,
Me-> First time post, long time follower. Kudos! to folks who have been active and helping others tide over their issues.

My 2 cents on this...

We really don't have much say on CIR. I feel I-485 relief makes a lot of sense, since we(EB based) are the only group pushing for it and is non controversial. As for CIR, we are a spec in the desert. Even if we all unite on CIR, which we are, still it's a puny number with reference to ~10-12 Million illegal aliens that get affected. Also, last time around SKIL bill was part of the Managers bill(sic), what i understand it was unanimously agreed upon!. Here the illegal immigration will take the center stage. Ideally, if we can separate the SKIL bill and other EB provisions from CIR then that'll be perfect.

So, here we can push for I-485 relief and try to get that through, and just hope that we have enough traction with the other groups to get CIR in too.

It's not a choice between I-485 relief and CIR, it's more like first I-485 and then CIR!! :)
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Playing the devils advocate.

The whole idea of I-485 relief being bought up was because of lack of confidence within IV, QGA , or whichever group over the CIR passage.

So, what i understand your point is : " All (CIR) or Nothing !! "
and god forbid CIR fails, then like you said we are looking 5 years without any relief ? If it fails in Feb, the chances of it passing AS-IS is even less after few months.

Even with all the hoohalla on immigration during the State of the Union speech, the democrats feel CIR is still an uphill battle :
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a1w.rgPEnv3A&refer=us

Reading through your and UnitedNation's posts that I-485 relief will create bigger problems later may be valid, but the whole reason of this relief is "If-You-can't-cure-it-put-it-on-Life-Support !" :) in the first place.

We really need to ask, what prompted some folks to ask for I-485 relief in the first place ? I'm sure they are stuck too ! .. why didn't they push for SKIL/CIR instead ?, they were pushing for it for few years!

IMHO, I'd like to see something come out of it this time around. Although I'm not "yet" in the same boat as some of the folks here, but I do feel it's better to sit on EAD than to wait for I485 :))

If you, lobbyists etc feel confident about CIR, let's drop everything else and just push for CIR.
On the other hand, if it's more like The-right-thing-to-do-but-bleak-chances then it's time to smell the coffee and push for I-485 relief. :) Fair Game!
 
If interim I-485 is passed, I won't mind it. But eventually it will lead to 6+ months delays in getting EAD and the day u get ur EAD, u will end up applying for EAD for next year. Then a day will come when ur EAD renewal will not be approved in time and u will be screwed.

The basic problem with SKIL bill was (IMHO) the clause for increase in number of H1-Bs. People are more opposed to the idea of more immigrants coming in. Providing a path to citizenship for qualified working individuals is easier to tackle. Of course big companies want the former and won't lobby just for the latter :).

UnitedNations and others are right in saying that one must not try to create problems for ourselves by taking shortcuts without thinking of long-term repercussions.
 
UnitedNations...Please don't kill the startups :) !

"Only companies with $20 million in revenue should be able to apply; no company can apply for more then 10% of its workforce for green cards in any 12 month period."

Well, UnitedNations, in that case you just killed most of the Silicon Valley startups :) :)!
Most of the startups have revenues less than $20M, heck.. there are many which don't even have any revenue, but have VC funding, so you can see the line of credit is there, as much as $100M. These startups get acquired ( personal experience) by large corps mostly for their potential than revenues. Also, most of these are started by immigrations (read Indian- Chinese) so H1-B's are as much as 20% of the 50 -100 odd people they employ, and want to file for GC.



unitednations said:
See, everyone has a different definition of what is genuine and who is deserving.

If the whole purpose of employment base immigration is to match a foreign worker with a company who can't find a US worker then there shouldn't be any quota, any wait.

For people who have been here 7 or 8 years they may not like it that someone only has to wait four months to get a greencard through employment base.

When people including myself talk about proper checks - we may have different version of it. My idea of proper check may be that jobs should be advertised under guidance of department of labor under supervised recruiting. Only companies with $20 million in revenue should be able to apply; no company can apply for more then 10% of its workforce for greencards in any 12 month period.

However, I would obviously only pick a "check" which I would pass. It is not an easy discussion or way to conclude.

If you look at some of the frequent posters who are worried about the greencard, they already have 485 filed and have ead/ap but still are not satisfied. They ultimately want the greencard right away and continue to worry about it. The interim step of being able to file 485 without priority date would give you a sense of relief but only for a short period of time.
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I disagree..

Please find my comments inline with **


unitednations said:
Why do you only copy certain parts of the posting?

Sorry about that.. trying to save whitespace :)

At a high level; why is that these companies have so many h-1b's working for them? Is it that American's don't want these jobs? These companies will expect people to take less and they can only attract foreigners.

**** >
Good point. These companies really can't find citizens who are willing to work for startups. How many people would leave a nice cushion of working at Intel, Microsoft, Google to work for YouTube, LVL7, MySpace etc. (without knowing they'll make money)

These people don't pay less. Really money doesn't become an issue. It's : benefits, job pressure ( working 18- 20 hours a day for months and years ), insecurity, instability on job (coz its a startup :)! may go down any time ), respect( would like to work for some unknown co or INTEL ?), less or no 401k benefits, no child support, you name it there are many.

Why would some do it -> Success, Money !!

It hasn't been posted much on these forums but the cybersoftech president got convicted for immigration fraud. This spurred a newspaper in Maine to investigate all the companies who have filed labors and h-1b in Maine from the same virtual office. It was very hard hitting.

**
Valid points! the company you are mentioning is a Consulting company, a cheap, money-sucking, exploiting, heartless body shopping hell !. The companies I'm talking about are

1) You-Tube Sold to google ~ $1.6 B - > # of employees ~ 70, Revenue ~$0 !! (may a few Million )

2) LVL7 Sold to Broadcom ~ guess $75M , # employees ~ 85, a lot of H1B, Revenue - really not a lot

3) IKANOS Went IPO worth ~ $250 M, #employees - ~200, Founder Indian, Many Indian H1-B's working.

I can list out atleast ~ 10 odd Tech companies which had < $10 Million revenue and were acquired by big corps for decent money ( read between $50M - $!B ).
-------------------------------
Just a matter of time before other newspapers pick up on this in Iowa, wisconsin, new hampshire, delaware.

** They also picked up YouTube and Google(preIPO), :))

As I've said when there is momentum on increasing greencards, etc.; are you ready for someone to study the other side of it and do you have your arguments in place.
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**
I don't quite get this question, but really my point is being in High Tech sector(which most of us are) You realize one thing the market is extremely volatile. You can get laid off from a nice secure job within months. With all that, filing I-485 gives the safety net of not going through it again and again (Folks, like yourself are expert to comment on this issue). I think thats more important than thinking about people transferring from B1-> I485.
 
unitedNations .. the reply is within your message

reply is in the previous post , half of it in your message and the other half outside.
 
hopefully.. this comes out fine :) !

unitednations said:
Why do you only copy certain parts of the posting?

At a high level; why is that these companies have so many h-1b's working for them? Is it that American's don't want these jobs? These companies will expect people to take less and they can only attract foreigners.

It hasn't been posted much on these forums but the cybersoftech president got convicted for immigration fraud. This spurred a newspaper in Maine to investigate all the companies who have filed labors and h-1b in Maine from the same virtual office. It was very hard hitting.

Just a matter of time before other newspapers pick up on this in Iowa, wisconsin, new hampshire, delaware.

As I've said when there is momentum on increasing greencards, etc.; are you ready for someone to study the other side of it and do you have your arguments in place.
Click to expand...

1) **** >
Good point. These companies really can't find citizens who are willing to work for startups. How many people would leave a nice cushion of working at Intel, Microsoft, Google to work for YouTube, LVL7, MySpace etc. (without knowing they'll make money)

These people don't pay less. Really money doesn't become an issue. It's : benefits, job pressure ( working 18- 20 hours a day for months and years ), insecurity, instability on job (coz its a startup ! may go down any time ), respect( would like to work for some unknown co or INTEL ?), less or no 401k benefits, no child support, you name it there are many.

Why would some do it -> Success, Money !!

2)
**
Valid points! the company you are mentioning is a Consulting company, a cheap, money-sucking, exploiting, heartless body shopping hell !. The companies I'm talking about are

1) You-Tube Sold to google ~ $1.6 B - > # of employees ~ 70, Revenue ~$0 !! (may a few Million )

2) LVL7 Sold to Broadcom ~ guess $75M , # employees ~ 85, a lot of H1B, Revenue - really not a lot

3) IKANOS Went IPO worth ~ $250 M, #employees - ~200, Founder Indian, Many Indian H1-B's working.

I can list out atleast ~ 10 odd Tech companies which had < $10 Million revenue and were acquired by big corps for decent money ( read between $50M - $!B ).
-------------------------------

3)** They also picked up YouTube and Google(preIPO), ) :)

4)
**
I don't quite get this question, but really my point is being in High Tech sector(which most of us are) You realize one thing the market is extremely volatile. You can get laid off from a nice secure job within months. With all that, filing I-485 gives the safety net of not going through it again and again (Folks, like yourself are expert to comment on this issue). I think thats more important than thinking about people transferring from B1-> I485.
 
what matters most.

I hear you ! :). See, the bottom line is this insulates us to some extend against "Market volatility". Here the housing market is going down, DOW crashed 100 points today, MOTO layed off ~ 4,000, sprint ~10,000. Tomorrow we can be staring down a recession :(.

At least filing for I485 and having your case pending helps in case of layoff's.
(At least that's what i get reading posts here).

Now, talking about "increased labor pool", "shifting the bottle neck" or "people transferring B1/B2 etc to I485" are ALL EXTREMELY VALID and SERIOUS scenarios. But, guess more than those are what people (families) have faced during last recession. Folks in queue esp 2003, 2004, 2005 (i'm not one of them , Me - 2006 :) ) have all seen the recession once and many have reapplied to go thru the process multiple times.

It's being fair to them or anyone who works in a market where recession, layoffs every 3-4 years is a norm!. It makes more sense since it gives some piece of mind when it comes to "employer harassment" , "layoffs", "traveling" etc.


no_more_anger said:
If interim I-485 is passed, I won't mind it. But eventually it will lead to 6+ months delays in getting EAD and the day u get ur EAD, u will end up applying for EAD for next year. Then a day will come when ur EAD renewal will not be approved in time and u will be screwed.

The basic problem with SKIL bill was (IMHO) the clause for increase in number of H1-Bs. People are more opposed to the idea of more immigrants coming in. Providing a path to citizenship for qualified working individuals is easier to tackle. Of course big companies want the former and won't lobby just for the latter :).

UnitedNations and others are right in saying that one must not try to create problems for ourselves by taking shortcuts without thinking of long-term repercussions.
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:eek:
 
That's a very interesting point in the debate. There are a lot of people who came to study/work in US temporarily and then went back to their home country and founded multi-million businesses, HOWEVER there are no stats to establish they went back bcoz of their 'Immigration frustrations'. If ever such stats can be collected and established as pro-immigration arguments THAT would have some impact!
 
Intermezzo

unitednations said:
The thing is when people want to write to senators; they give a list of immigrants who have made great contribution (google founders, etc.). I don't know why people have the nerve to compare themselves to those people with that type of talent. Comparing the average EB worker to some of the best and brightest minds and making a link is pretty foolhearted, don't you think? Did anyone ever reserach how those guys got their greencards; did any of them come out and say they were on h-1b and if they had to wait for greencard they would have left or never come in the first place.

Is there any exmples of someone who has left USA who wanted to stay here and instead started a company which rose to $10 to $20 billion in revenue in another country? This would be a much more valid example then the ones people are writing to their senators/congressmen about. Frankly, I would laugh if I was sitting on their side of the desk at such a letter.
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I read Skill_Exploited's comments as a reply to '$20MM in revenue or no GC sponsorship status' 'proposal' (which I read as an illustration, not an actual proposal).
All in all, I read a lot.

And when I think about it, I485/fast GC should be supported by the Guild and NumbersUSA, too. When recession comes, as it will, few will 'go back'. Most will bow down and work for food + legal status, which will have obvious negative impact on Guild/Numbers members & supporters (not the leaders, of course).
 
Maybe I wasn't clear here.

I'm not talking about the founders of these companies. i'm talking about the employees of these companies. When i meant working in < $20M startups ...
Do you really think Yahoo's, Google's and Sun's founders did all the coding when they were worth $0 ??.
They are the founders but the actual grunt work is done by folks like us !:)

1) I'm not talking about Larry Page and Bin of Google, i'm talking about the software, hardware engineer H1-B's at Google - (read pre IPO , when google had minuscule revenue ) . These guys are like you and me, hardworking.. they just got lucky :)

2) I'm not talking about founder of Ikanos, I'm talking about my friends who went to school in decent universities to get their Masters and are working there. Startup-- $0 revenue then.

3) I'm not comparing founder of LVL7, I'm talking of software guys from North Carolina state university who took that job after graduation, since it was "exciting" ... no revenue generating corp.

I agree with you it's a bit too much when people give examples of "Founders" of these corps. However there are H1-B's joining these companies when they had $0 revenue, because no one else will join in or just plain exciting. NOW they are big shots.. but 5 years ago they were nothing.

Coming to your second point..
People who are in the GC queue are there because they want to come to US. Why would people literally waste so many years of their youth in this process. People struggle, endure and succeed. A better life is what they are looking for.

For GC to be reduced, first reduce H1-B, B1/B2-> GC transfer etc. But once on GC process, you would agree, the most vulnerable are those stuck after I-140 with retrogressed I485. These guys are sitting ducks! Anything happens it's back to zero. On the other hand at least allowing folks to apply for I485, the risk of starting over again is reduced for many, if not all.

Layoff, one example, is actually Huge reason if you are asking a techie. It can be a blood bath, and not really connected to your performance as such. It comes Hard and Fast if your company misses 1Q results !.. Secondly, other big issue is employer harassment, imagine being stuck with an employer who harasses you financially, emotionally or just plain threatening for years. I wouldn't count that as a simple argument.



unitednations said:
The thing is when people want to write to senators; they give a list of immigrants who have made great contribution (google founders, etc.). I don't know why people have the nerve to compare themselves to those people with that type of talent. Comparing the average EB worker to some of the best and brightest minds and making a link is pretty foolhearted, don't you think? Did anyone ever reserach how those guys got their greencards; did any of them come out and say they were on h-1b and if they had to wait for greencard they would have left or never come in the first place.

Is there any exmples of someone who has left USA who wanted to stay here and instead started a company which rose to $10 to $20 billion in revenue in another country? This would be a much more valid example then the ones people are writing to their senators/congressmen about. Frankly, I would laugh if I was sitting on their side of the desk at such a letter.

Everyone keeps talking of how people won't come here because of retrogression. Did you see the homepage of this particular web-site. They want companies to send h-1b quota cases now. I myself am expecting to file 500 quota cases. How come people still have demand to come here? How come no one is going back?

--------------------------------------------------------

note: above is just other side of the argument that people need to face/brace.


-----------------------------------------------------------

The example of filing 485 without priority date to protect against layoffs, etc., is maybe the real reason. However, is this what you want to use as an argument? That is they should allow 485 filing because if I get laid off and my sponsor doesn't want me anymore? Do you think this is a winning argument.

Some of the biggest winers on this board are people who have 485 pending but priority dates retrogressed. If you examine some of the postings where people are trying to transfer priority dates; they already have 485's pending. Go back to postings from 2003-2004 when people had pending 485's and you will still see the desperation back then, even though they had 485's filed.
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Skill_Exploited,

The politics of USA is very complicated. World's most powerful person (The President of USA) wants CIR to pass but it was failed in 109 Congress. World's richest man (Bill Gates) wants H1b increase since more than last two years, but still waiting.

I understand this political issue as follow:

Condition 1:
I 485 filling without priority date pass with Supplimental bill on Feb 15. In this case businessess will also get h1B increase

Condition 2:

CIR pass in July August 07

If condition 1 and 2 are successful, EB community will be on top of the world. This is ideal condition.

But as I told earlier, politics is very complicated and unpredictable hence, we have to consider other combinations as well.

If Condition 1 pass in Feb 2007 and Condition 2 (CIR) fails (Chances are there. The people who are desperately pushing I 485 also know that chances of CIR are very less, otherwise why they are not waiting for three more months?), The Congress will not listen for any other EB provision. They will always tell us that we already gave you in Feb 2007 and we have lot of other priorities.

If we do not push any interim demand of I 485 filling, Congress has to address EB issue either with CIR, Skill or any other bill as last EB relief was given in 2001.


Why to loose our turn for a demand, which do not provide single Green Card to any one.




Skill_Exploited said:
The whole idea of I-485 relief being bough.t up was because of lack of confidence within IV, QGA , or whichever group over the CIR passage.

So, what i understand your point is : " All (CIR) or Nothing !! "
and god forbid CIR fails, then like you said we are looking 5 years without any relief ? If it fails in Feb, the chances of it passing AS-IS is even less after few months.

Even with all the hoohalla on immigration during the State of the Union speech, the democrats feel CIR is still an uphill battle :
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a1w.rgPEnv3A&refer=us

Reading through your and UnitedNation's posts that I-485 relief will create bigger problems later may be valid, but the whole reason of this relief is "If-You-can't-cure-it-put-it-on-Life-Support !" :) in the first place.

We really need to ask, what prompted some folks to ask for I-485 relief in the first place ? I'm sure they are stuck too ! .. why didn't they push for SKIL/CIR instead ?, they were pushing for it for few years!

IMHO, I'd like to see something come out of it this time around. Although I'm not "yet" in the same boat as some of the folks here, but I do feel it's better to sit on EAD than to wait for I485 :))

If you, lobbyists etc feel confident about CIR, let's drop everything else and just push for CIR.
On the other hand, if it's more like The-right-thing-to-do-but-bleak-chances then it's time to smell the coffee and push for I-485 relief. :) Fair Game!
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Iv

khodalmd said:
Do you think Congress will address EB issue time and again? They have thousands of other priority issue.
Click to expand...

Nice to see you here :) . I left IV because they insisted that they would only go after 485 filing provision first. I was one of the few who were willing to disclose their names to reporters and make hundreds of calls (besides sending money!). But their moderator logiclife and the founder himself started getting rough when their views were challenged. I have now spoken to several ppl I was in touch with then, and I learned that ppl who have filed EADs are not contributing to IV any more. Also, I think they banned nycgal and jimi_hendrix. Both of them had made huge contributions and did not deserve that, but ppl get arrogant when in power and IV mods are no different .... what can one do?

Their single-point agenda will work against me, and I had no choice but to leave. I did not feel nice about leaving, but I could not keep sending money for a cause that would come back to hurt me. Should I ask for a refund?
 
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Thanks qplearn,

Same with me. I joined IV to fulfil my own dream and contributed with my level best efforts. Yes, you are right; very few people have courage to disclose their identity to media. Out of around 47 news story about IV members, I participated aggressively in two stories.

I had a strong disagreement on IV's decision of single agenda push of I 485 filling as an interim push as I visulize the long term consequences as discussed in this thread. I posted my views but many people on IV site used abussive and insulting words against my views.

I strongly feel that single agenda push of I 485 filling is

1. Loosing of our valuable turn (Congress will not give chance again and again)
2. I 485 filling without any check will prove fatal for EB community (as analyzed by unitednations)

However, I have high regards for commendable job of IV core team and I salute their dedicated hard work.




qplearn said:
Nice to see you here :) . I left IV because they insisted that they would only go after 485 filing provision first. I was one of the few who were willing to disclose their names to reporters and make hundreds of calls (besides sending money!). But their moderator logiclife and the founder himself started getting rough when their views were challenged. I have now spoken to several ppl I was in touch with then, and I learned that ppl who have filed EADs are not contributing to IV any more. Also, I think they banned nycgal and jimi_hendrix. Both of them had made huge contributions and did not deserve that, but ppl get arrogant when in power and IV mods are no different .... what can one do?

Their single-point agenda will work against me, and I had no choice but to leave. I did not feel nice about leaving, but I could not keep sending money for a cause that would come back to hurt me. Should I ask for a refund?
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IV core is victim of sheer arrogance. They do not want to accept any opinion that is against what they think is right. They wonder why contributions are not occurring. Who will want to contribute to an organization that is hell bent on screwing all who have filed for I485 and causing much severe retrogression by allowing everyone to file for I485. An organization that is barely growing should not be so arrogant so as to proclaim that they are blind confident of getting any provision they want to pass comfortably during 2007. IV core has created a set of blind followers who do not understand its arrogant leadership's desperate and short sighted measures.
 
khodalmd said:
Thanks qplearn,

Same with me. I joined IV to fulfil my own dream and contributed with my level best efforts. Yes, you are right; very few people have courage to disclose their identity to media. Out of around 47 news story about IV members, I participated aggressively in two stories.

I had a strong disagreement on IV's decision of single agenda push of I 485 filling as an interim push as I visulize the long term consequences as discussed in this thread. I posted my views but many people on IV site used abussive and insulting words against my views.

I strongly feel that single agenda push of I 485 filling is

1. Loosing of our valuable tern (Congress will not give chance again and again)
2. I 485 filling without any check will prove fatal for EB community (as analyzed by unitednations)

However, I have high regards for commendable job of IV core team and I salute their dedicated hard work.
Click to expand...

Would you with your friend/analyzer support initiative of taking off I485 benefits from people whose cases had been filed for AOS and whose PD is not current ?
 
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