I'm sure that now all they (& we) want is to put the DV 2012 behind them & move on... but after all the talk, they can't back down without at least "fighting" that would mean admiting they were "incompetent" in this situation
JULY 15 Re-draw Maybe Cancelled!!!!
- Thread starter win dv
- Start date
Very true...If DoS don't reverse their decision and allow the 22k winners to proceed, then it is inevitable that DV-2012 will be placed on hold even if July 15th results are released.
So DV-2013 won't be affected by this situation right?
I am not an expert in law but i do not believe DV 2013 will be affected, it is just the 2012 edition who has issue
a Congressman said that the case has been accepted & that DOS have until august 21 to respond... for all those who whished 22k failure do you know what that means...?
Even if july 15 is still happening, the results would be either void or on hold until that case is over & won't be over before august 21 (end of the fiscal year)... I never though it will go this far...
Even if july 15 is still happening, the results would be either void or on hold until that case is over & won't be over before august 21 (end of the fiscal year)... I never though it will go this far...
Damn!! This seems more of a deadlock & prolong stalemate. If i were to be David Donahue, i will play the twisty game by re- selecting Dv 22k among the new 100k to be selected & MANUALLY assigning them highly unrealistic case numbers within DV2012xxxxxxxx78,000 – 100,000 range....lol....as a revenge for their actions...
They are causing 14million applicants & DOS a whole lot of headache due to their ‘do or die’ DESPERATION FOR A GREEN CARD and making complete nuisance the whole dv 2012. At least DOS has apologise to DV22k, what else do you want!!. Is it in ur best interest to jeopardise the opportunity of 14million entrants (including ur very self)...
Last edited by a moderator:
well, i though about that but won't happen, randomness wasn't the sole complain... writen statement were in play, phones statement from KCC until may 12 & check cashing until may 11were also in play & changing case number to put them at the back will mean "cheating with the results"... & punishable bt the justice...
& not all 22k complained, 36 plaintif... i know a former winer who didn't even know a lawsuit had been placed... my case number was 11xxx... so i won't accept going from 11xxx to 100 000... I didn't sued DOS, was waiting until july 15, If you remember, i was even saying that this lawsuit has no chance at all but when i started to follow the update, i started to change my mind & realised that this lawsuit is strong & that K. White may have something there (remember i was even discrediting Kenneth White)...
I kept saying that DOS screwed up big time there... IF no july 15 like the last gongressman statement hint it, DOS should have just keep it quiet thus no one would have complained & they would have fixed the problem for the next lottery
& not all 22k complained, 36 plaintif... i know a former winer who didn't even know a lawsuit had been placed... my case number was 11xxx... so i won't accept going from 11xxx to 100 000... I didn't sued DOS, was waiting until july 15, If you remember, i was even saying that this lawsuit has no chance at all but when i started to follow the update, i started to change my mind & realised that this lawsuit is strong & that K. White may have something there (remember i was even discrediting Kenneth White)...
I kept saying that DOS screwed up big time there... IF no july 15 like the last gongressman statement hint it, DOS should have just keep it quiet thus no one would have complained & they would have fixed the problem for the next lottery
Last edited by a moderator:
Based on the information that has been released there is no chance on Earth, any of the 22k people would be reinstalled. Both DoS and the court must fallow the law.
There is very little place for interpretation of the law in the current situation. The draw did not meet the rules that Congress has mandated; thus it's illegitimate and no commitment can be honored. The DV lottery is mandated by a law voted by Congress and DoS has no authority to give 22k additional visas just like that...this would go against the law. Only Congress can mandate an expansion of the number...but this will not happen because the House is in the hands of the Republicans and we all know how they feel about the issue.
There is only ONE widely accepted interpretation of 'random' and that is the statistical one. The introduction of a temporal bias in the selection process deems the process nonconforming with the law. For the DoS to have continued with processing the applications of the 22k would have meant breaching the law that they are obliged to follow and defend. The court will inevitably recognize that and would not mandate a resolution that would force DoS to violate a law mandated by Congress.
Most importantly, the rule of the lottery clearly states that selection does NOT guarantee an immigrant visa (aka green card). The selectees are simply give a CHANCE to have their application processed and hopefully receive a visa after a vetting process that includes an interview. This is an EXTREMELY important point. All the articles that I have read from proponents of those, whose status has been rescinded, create an illusion that they have 'won a green card'. This is not true. DoS has not made any such commitment. DoS has the right to terminate your application at any point if not everything is the way the law mandates. As simple as that.
Another point that comes oftentimes in the articles that I've read is people claiming that they have sold property, quit jobs, married someone, etc. These are all things that are ill thought and honestly bring forward questions about the judgment of those individuals. Not to mention that the DV Lottery instructions has always advised people against making such drastic steps BEFORE they get a visa in their passports...And here we are talking of 13 days into the initial notification. There is no one to blame but oneself. What would have happened if, as it inevitably happens often, some of those people were refused a visa on different grounds during an interview...would they still blame DoS?
Is DoS to blame for the fiasco? Absolutely. But among the forum members here and beyond there seems to be very little understanding of the actual legal case and potential imitations that the case could have. First, last time I checked there were about 30 (thirty) people actually participating in the trial, not 22k. If your name is not in the court documents, you are not part of the trial and I cannot imagine any judge including an anonymous individual into a verdict. The case is structured as a class case against DoS; but it has not been approved yet. If it get’s approved it would be a case of only those 30 or some people and their legal representative not 22k people.
Finding DoS liable and in breach of contract does not guarantee re-installment of anyone. If the judge finds DoS liable for their actions, he/she could very well mandate compensation in other way; most likely monetary compensation. This is especially true in the current situation, where DoS does NOT have the authority to issue 22k visas without Congressional approval. The Court cannot force Congress to take this decision because it is a third party in the situation. You see where I am going with this?
That being said, I expect a resolution of the case VERY SOON. Probably by the end of he year. The attorney in the case, Mr. White is an opportunist who, like most immigration attorneys, is after cases that would make him money. If he sees that the case stalls and the DoS won’t nudge he will drop the case very quickly.
There is very little place for interpretation of the law in the current situation. The draw did not meet the rules that Congress has mandated; thus it's illegitimate and no commitment can be honored. The DV lottery is mandated by a law voted by Congress and DoS has no authority to give 22k additional visas just like that...this would go against the law. Only Congress can mandate an expansion of the number...but this will not happen because the House is in the hands of the Republicans and we all know how they feel about the issue.
There is only ONE widely accepted interpretation of 'random' and that is the statistical one. The introduction of a temporal bias in the selection process deems the process nonconforming with the law. For the DoS to have continued with processing the applications of the 22k would have meant breaching the law that they are obliged to follow and defend. The court will inevitably recognize that and would not mandate a resolution that would force DoS to violate a law mandated by Congress.
Most importantly, the rule of the lottery clearly states that selection does NOT guarantee an immigrant visa (aka green card). The selectees are simply give a CHANCE to have their application processed and hopefully receive a visa after a vetting process that includes an interview. This is an EXTREMELY important point. All the articles that I have read from proponents of those, whose status has been rescinded, create an illusion that they have 'won a green card'. This is not true. DoS has not made any such commitment. DoS has the right to terminate your application at any point if not everything is the way the law mandates. As simple as that.
Another point that comes oftentimes in the articles that I've read is people claiming that they have sold property, quit jobs, married someone, etc. These are all things that are ill thought and honestly bring forward questions about the judgment of those individuals. Not to mention that the DV Lottery instructions has always advised people against making such drastic steps BEFORE they get a visa in their passports...And here we are talking of 13 days into the initial notification. There is no one to blame but oneself. What would have happened if, as it inevitably happens often, some of those people were refused a visa on different grounds during an interview...would they still blame DoS?
Is DoS to blame for the fiasco? Absolutely. But among the forum members here and beyond there seems to be very little understanding of the actual legal case and potential imitations that the case could have. First, last time I checked there were about 30 (thirty) people actually participating in the trial, not 22k. If your name is not in the court documents, you are not part of the trial and I cannot imagine any judge including an anonymous individual into a verdict. The case is structured as a class case against DoS; but it has not been approved yet. If it get’s approved it would be a case of only those 30 or some people and their legal representative not 22k people.
Finding DoS liable and in breach of contract does not guarantee re-installment of anyone. If the judge finds DoS liable for their actions, he/she could very well mandate compensation in other way; most likely monetary compensation. This is especially true in the current situation, where DoS does NOT have the authority to issue 22k visas without Congressional approval. The Court cannot force Congress to take this decision because it is a third party in the situation. You see where I am going with this?
That being said, I expect a resolution of the case VERY SOON. Probably by the end of he year. The attorney in the case, Mr. White is an opportunist who, like most immigration attorneys, is after cases that would make him money. If he sees that the case stalls and the DoS won’t nudge he will drop the case very quickly.
Last edited by a moderator:
that's why we says the "seletees" not the "winners"... & also you are wrong, they can't deny you a visa for no reason... there were 2 cases where plaintifs sued DOS for refusing them the DV visa for no good reasons & gues what... they actualy won & got their visa... this simple exemple dismiss your argument... & if that lawsuit wasn't dangerous as you hint it to be then why in hell DOS felt the need to send 2 lawyers...?
& another thing... the "human error" part... means DOS is 100% responsable thus totaly accountable since THEY made the mistake, THEY told peoples to ship ASAP, THEY kept cashing cheks, THEY didn't even notified peoples if their refund request were accepted until today...
maybe DOS does not have the authority for the visas but at the same time does not have the authority to get pass the judge... I was like you, never though that case had a chance but i slowely started to change my mind... well, 17 days left
but if DOS realy didn't have any authority for the visa, they would just have said "we can't do it, case closed"... no, instead they send 2 lawyers to defend them...
Last edited by a moderator:
CraigToomy
Banned
Noone is asking for extra visa numbers. The solution that was proposed by White is 22K old winners + 78K new winners.
And monetary compensation doesn't sound that bad.
This case will not bring any money. However, it is likely to bring some kind of recognition. In case the court has any kind of decision other than what DOS stated, including any kind of monetary compensation for forms sent to DOS by mail (postal expenses), it will bring the attorney some kind of recognition. With little expense. Exactly the same as Mr. White lost 10 years ago agains US consulate in Moscow (even it was obvoius at that point there was no chance he would win it, now he says he achieved great deal agains it).
Also, there are ways to extend the trial time - by applying to court of appeals, and if it's decision is different from lower court's one, continuing to Supreme Court.
Also, there are ways to extend the trial time - by applying to court of appeals, and if it's decision is different from lower court's one, continuing to Supreme Court.
that bad news for non selectees who are waiting on july 15... meaning everybody lost...
1. I didn't say that they can deny visa for no reason. i said they will deny visa if the law and their guidance have not been followed.
2. I am not sure what cases you are referring to but it's most likely the result of procedural neglect and not systemic flaw in the procedure. Big difference.
3. DOS has an entire legal department! Think a dozen attorney's or more. I am actually surprizer they sent only two. I am sure Mr. White -- or whatever his name is -- has got legal help along the way as well.
4. Human or Computer error, it's an error as you said it yourself. Anything but a perfectly randomized selection with no introduced statistical bias -- human or not -- disqualifies the entrees. If anything, the 'human error' is less favorable for your case because it would imply a potential malicious manipulation or deliberate action by an employee of DoS. The whole argument Mr. White had was that the computer error occurred "randomly" as thus the results were random. This is a laughable argument, to begin with, since behind any software program (which is a string of code), there is a human being who has written this code. Now if the human error is made even more prominent, I don't know how would he proceed.
4. No court of law can order DoS to breach US law. This is absurd. Either the DV Lottery law must be deemed unconstitutional -- which is not even debated or applicable -- or the court must find the selection of those 22k to conform with the DV Lottery law. In other words, the only way imaginable for anyone to get re0installed is if a judge believes that the process was conforming with the law. Convince the judge that it did and you've won the case. However, I would not bet even a dollar on this case. It will get thrown out very soon. Yes, my personal opinion based on what I've read i that the case will not be approved. I guess we will have to wait and see; don't we.
2. I am not sure what cases you are referring to but it's most likely the result of procedural neglect and not systemic flaw in the procedure. Big difference.
3. DOS has an entire legal department! Think a dozen attorney's or more. I am actually surprizer they sent only two. I am sure Mr. White -- or whatever his name is -- has got legal help along the way as well.
4. Human or Computer error, it's an error as you said it yourself. Anything but a perfectly randomized selection with no introduced statistical bias -- human or not -- disqualifies the entrees. If anything, the 'human error' is less favorable for your case because it would imply a potential malicious manipulation or deliberate action by an employee of DoS. The whole argument Mr. White had was that the computer error occurred "randomly" as thus the results were random. This is a laughable argument, to begin with, since behind any software program (which is a string of code), there is a human being who has written this code. Now if the human error is made even more prominent, I don't know how would he proceed.
4. No court of law can order DoS to breach US law. This is absurd. Either the DV Lottery law must be deemed unconstitutional -- which is not even debated or applicable -- or the court must find the selection of those 22k to conform with the DV Lottery law. In other words, the only way imaginable for anyone to get re0installed is if a judge believes that the process was conforming with the law. Convince the judge that it did and you've won the case. However, I would not bet even a dollar on this case. It will get thrown out very soon. Yes, my personal opinion based on what I've read i that the case will not be approved. I guess we will have to wait and see; don't we.
CraigToomy
Banned
That makes sense if defendant is truly interested in the outcome. DOS is a government agency, people working there will get paid in any case, why would they appeal -- there's no motivation for them, like I said - they don't care.
CraigToomy
Banned
You'll be even more surprised when I tell you that both are from DOJ, the entity that defends federal government in the court. "DOS Entire legal department" has terrible hangover apparently.
Yes. You are right. 
It's all one big family. DOJ = even more attorneys!!!
Here are the hangover guys:
http://www.state.gov/s/l/
It's all one big family. DOJ = even more attorneys!!!
Here are the hangover guys:
http://www.state.gov/s/l/
we all wan this to end...win or lose, just an end of it
What is this about August 21st?Does it means the results may be anöunced then cancelled?,(i dont want this cancellation to happen to another group,its so emotional & frustrating).I hope Dos and Mr.White come to an agreement.We cannot be put on this emotinal rollercoster.If its re-instatement or refund of postage or denial so be it.I cant imagine a 2nd draw to be announced then cancelled again.Just imagine being selected twice just to be cancelled again.We want this anxiety thing to end.So Dos and all the parties involved please look at all the angles,do the right thing and solve this thing once and for all.
First of all, reveal your source.
Calm down man. You jump to conclusions so quick, that's ridiculous. Nothing is clear yet. Enough predictions. Enough speculations, let's just wait and see what happens.
Last edited by a moderator: