Irvine, CA man may lose U.S. citizenship for lying in his N400

Jackolantern said:
You still don't get it. If you are NOT a liar nor a criminal, you're going to have serious trouble proving your case if they bring up something about you 20+ years after naturalization.
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What could they bring up, short of court records and other official documentation?

You don't get it.
 
Huracan said:
However, the point is that the government tried, and they proved they can easily go after naturalized citizens if allowed.
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All that was proven was that the courts will stop the government from denaturalizing based on trivial reasons, and will not stand in the way for legitimate cases of fraud. Sounds like the system worked exactly as designed.

Now, if denaturalizations are rare, wouldn't you prefer those liars and criminals to have the opportunity of instead of being fearful and looking over their shoulders all the time to fully integrate and be good parents and spouses and members of society?
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My neighbor growing up has a number tattooed on his arm. The fact that some SS guard spent 40 years as a good spouse, parent or member of society makes no difference to me. I want him to spend his last years in misery shipped back to his home country where they know what to deal with his kind.

When I become a citizen, I don't want to be considered in the same boat as these individuals, by having people suspect my citizenship and whether it was obtained using false pretenses. And unlike your paranoid colleagues, while I am inherently suspicious of the state in a Jeffersonian sense I am not worried that it is actively out to get me.

If you are so worried that the government is out to screw you, why are you here?
 
Finally!

Finally! That was the point. Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. All this talk is academic. ONLY the court will decide the fate of the individual in question. What we can do is to learn from this. If you did nothing wrong, and are not going to engage in clandestine illegal activities, then you REALLY have nothing to worry about. Wow. To me this conversation became academic a long time ago. Just use common sense, and don't live worried about the future. Live in the present and focus on living a good life. If the government has a right, to use enormous resources to go after someone....GOOD! There should be NO statute of limitation based on the fact that citizenship is a right. Even US citizens, who commit crimes, ranging from theft, to murder, to assault and battery, can be prosecuted under the law. And if convicted, they go to jail or prison depending on the nature of the offense. There is WAY too much paranoia here. Seriously, chill out.
:eek:

There is also an Armenian Valedictorian who may be deported. But Diane Feinstein's Office may write a Bill to keep him here! See there is hope for people who work hard; especially if they are going to contribute to society in a meaningful way:
http://immigration.freedomblogging....dictorian-facing-deportation-may-get-to-stay/

Here is the original article from the Orange County Register:
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/ahmadzai-citizenship-appeal-2058066-case-court

Warm Regards,
-jedi
 
Maybe like someone said, we should just agree to disagree. Some of us are looking at this issue from an immigrant's perspective, others, maybe not so much. If the society we live in was ideal and the system worked flawlessly, I'd probably understand. But we all know that is not the case.
 
I said that earlier. Still, there is no REAL reason to be so paranoid. I'm also an immigrant. And I know nothing is perfect...ESPECIALLY SOCIETY. But what I do know and have control of is my own actions. That's what this is about: accountability and responsibility. He committed several crimes, applied for naturalization; forgot to mention them (likely because he thought he would be denied) and look what happens in the end. And I too am undergoing this process. In my opinion, people who are overly stressed about this are giving themselves unnecessary stress over something that may NEVER come up. This person, is an exception to the rule; managed to slip by, but was eventually caught. GREAT! It's common sense: don't lie, don't withhold information, don't cheat, don't commit a crime which could land you in jail or prison. Minor traffic violations don't matter. However, driving while intoxicated, and maybe hurting someone as a result could land a person in jail...but wait...don't drink and drive.

This point is still academic. Only the court will decide the fate of this person. He will have a chance to appeal for a couple months. After that. SEE YA! People should have the presence of mind to admit the truth...even if it may potentially hurt in the end. I like this system. It punishes those who seek to take advantage of this privilege.
 
same thing 3 years ago.....

Court Strips Man of US Citizenship, Setting Legal Precedent
By Jim Teeple
Miami
12 January 2005

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Teeple report - Download 579k - Listen (Real)




A U.S. Court of Appeals in Atlanta, Georgia recently upheld a lower court ruling that stripped a man of his U.S. citizenship because of crimes he committed while his paperwork was being processed. Experts say the case will make it easier for government agencies to pursue naturalized immigrants who have criminal histories.

Lionel Jean-Baptiste, a 57-year-old former restaurant owner from Haiti was a leading member of the Haitian community in Miami until he was arrested and convicted of cocaine smuggling in 1997.

Mr. Jean-Baptiste served seven years in prison for his crime, but when he was released from prison in 2002, prosecutors took him to court again, this time to strip him of his citizenship.

Mr. Jean-Baptiste they said did not fulfill the "good moral character" requirement for naturalization. Prosecutors said that Mr. Jean-Baptiste applied for citizenship while he was engaged in criminal activity, and while he was not convicted until 1997, after he became a citizen, they said he should be stripped of his citizenship.

Now, an appeals court has rejected Mr. Jean-Baptiste's appeal - not to lose his citizenship - and he could face deportation back to Haiti. His lawyer says he will ask the appeals court to reconsider its decision and will try and appeal the case to the U.S. Supreme Court. Immigration and Customs officials have had no comment on the case.

Some leading authorities on immigration law, such as Professor Stephen Legomsky of Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri, say government prosecutors were clearly using the Jean-Baptiste case as a test case to set a precedent for future denaturalization proceedings.

"Well before 9/11, starting back in the 1990s, the government was intensifying its efforts to deport non-U.S. criminal offenders," he said. "After 9/11 that drive picked up. Since then it has taken a great deal of time because these proceedings tend to linger a while. My view is that since it takes so much time and effort for the government to bring a denaturalization proceeding, and then, if successful, to bring a subsequent removal proceeding, I have to think that with all their other priorities the government would not have brought this case unless their goal was to test out the strategy for future prosecutions."

David Martin, a professor of law at the University of Virginia and a former general counsel at the Immigration and Naturalization Service during the Clinton administration, says that the Jean-Baptiste case gives government prosecutors more ammunition in their prosecution of criminals, but he says de-naturalization cases are extremely difficult and complex to bring and will only affect a very small portion of the migrant population.

"In a way there is always a certain insecurity for naturalized citizens if the government later discovers that there was some kind of fraud or illegality in the naturalization process they can move to take away citizenship and there is no statute of limitations so there is that vulnerability," he said. "But, there are only a very tiny percentage of cases that result in any effort to de-naturalize. For the government, the burden of proof is very difficult by design. The Supreme Court has held that the constitution requires the government to carry a heavy burden of proof if they are going to take away citizenship."

Stephen Legomsky of Washington University says it is important to remember that Lionel Jean-Baptiste is losing his citizenship because he did not fulfill the requirement of being of "good moral character" as required by law. Mr. Legomsky says that in this case the courts are deferring to law enforcement agencies to define what that means.

"It is not unusual for a court to defer to an agency interpretation," he said. "What is unusual about this case is that it is citizenship that is at stake, and citizenship has such a special importance in our legal system and in our society. The court is essentially allowing a law enforcement agency to take away somebody's citizenship and that I think should be of concern."

Stephen Legomsky says while the government has won the Jean-Baptiste case, he says it is unlikely there will be a flood of denaturalization cases brought by government prosecutors. However, he says, there will be more such cases, because the naturalization process now takes much longer, meaning there will be more people committing crimes while they are awaiting naturalization.

Mr. Legomsky says naturalization is now taking longer because more people are applying to become citizens," he said. "He also says people are less hesitant to apply for naturalization because more countries are now allowing dual citizenship, meaning applicants can keep their citizenship in their country of origin. Additionally, he says the government has fewer resources to process the flood of applications, making the process even slower.

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-01/2005-01-12-voa35.cfm?CFID=1682324&CFTOKEN=45434086
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Ironically, the Haitian (Lionel Jean Baptiste) could not be deported since he renounced his Haitian citizenship and no other country (Haiti,France,Domincan republic) would accept him. The government finally released him in 2006 under supervision.
Seems like there's a loophole in the system: if a LPR if convicted of a deportable criminal offense all they have to do is renounce any previous citizenship and the government won't be able to deport them and have no choice but to release them. The same thing is going on with the John Demjanjuk case;he can't be deported since no one will accept him.

http://www.haitiwebs.com/forums/diaspora_news/41509-haitian_who_lost_u_s_citizenship_released.html
 
Bobsmyth said:
Seems like there's a loophole in the system: if a LPR if convicted of a deportable criminal offense all they have to do is renounce any previous citizenship and the government won't be able to deport them and have no choice but to release them.
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One more point against having dual citizenship. :D
 
TheRealist said:
One more point against having dual citizenship. :D
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yup, they cant deport you if your not a citizen of your old country and if they take away the U.S. citizen status, that makes us what? maybe citizen of the world/earth :D
 
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I think it's real simple.

They can definitely denaturalize you and deport you if youd concealed the fact that you were a Nazi prior to your naturalization.

However, if you only became a Nazi a few years after becoming a citizen, there's nothing they can do about it. (which happened shortly before WWII, according to what I read)
 
Another reason to have a statute of limitations instead of denaturalizing someone who cannot be deported at great taxpayer expense ;)
 
I definitely do not trust governments. Conspiracy theories are one thing, but the history of US foreign policy (and domestic issues) is far from peachy, and I won't put it past them to do odd things like come after you for reasons THEY feel they can. I mean, the RED SCARE in the 50s? Come on, people.

I'm not saying the US is a bad place. It's a GREAT place, and that's why I'm here. But, even the government must have limits. Individuals have very few rights. Corporations are untouchable. I mean, Sprint can overcharge you for years and you can't do anything about it, but if you miss one payment, your credit is shot. The same goes for government agencies. Too much power is not good.

Plus, once I give up my current citizenship to be a second class US citizen, I'm not a FULL citizen ANYWHERE... that's just wrong.
 
NaturalizedBorg said:
They can definitely denaturalize you and deport you if youd concealed the fact that you were a Nazi prior to your naturalization.
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The government has been trying for the last 30 years to denaturalize and deport John Demjanjuk. Up until now they have been unable to deport him since no country will accept him. He is basically a stateless person at this point.
 
TheRealCanadian said:
What could they bring up, short of court records and other official documentation?
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Suppose the IO who interviewed you confesses to accepting bribes from naturalization applicants during a certain time frame (including your interview), thus making his approvals suspect. So they go after many of the people he approved. 30 years later you have to prove that you naturalized on merit and didn't need a bribe.

Or the US elects a very xenophobic president and ICE gets an increased budget and they decide to use the money on another overzealous drive to denaturalize people en masse. Yes, they have to do it through the courts, but they've got the money to do it. You are selected because you appear to have failed to meet one of the requirements for naturalization. Your case appears that way because of their clerical error, but 20 years later you're on the spot to prove that their records are wrong and yours are right.

Or you are targeted by the government because you have spoken out against a war or have some other public disagreement with them. So they fish through your life ... questioning your employers and neighbors, digging up your travel records, anything to come up with a creative way to show that you lied on one of those "Have you EVER" questions.

Conspiracy theory? No, that's history. The US government has a long "tradition" of treating naturalized citizens worse than born citizens and wanting to denaturalize them, and the second-class distinction is even emboldened in the Constitution.
 
cafeconleche said:
Sprint can overcharge you for years and you can't do anything about it, but if you miss one payment, your credit is shot.
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Actually, that's not quite true. The only way a missed payment to a cellular carrier or a utility company can affect your credit is if your account goes into default (usually after a few payments are missed) and is turned over to collections. In fact, none of my utility, cellular, or cable tv accounts even appear on any of my credit reports. Credit card companies, on the other hand, are known for their predatory practices. Miss a payment, and not only does your credit suffer, the interest rate will probably get jacked up as well...and let's not forget universal default!

By the way, I'm stateless and it's not so bad! :)
 
Well, my point is that if Sprint or any other corporation is late in refunding money or fixing something they messes up, it's still the individual who is in trouble. The individual is essentially easy prey in this country.

Anyway, being stateless isn't too bad right now because you're getting citizenship, so it's temporary, but, in general, it's not so great, right? :)
 
cafeconleche said:
Well, my point is that if Sprint or any other corporation is late in refunding money or fixing something they messes up, it's still the individual who is in trouble. The individual is essentially easy prey in this country.
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To an extent, I agree that the little guy is definitely prey to the corporations, but only if he allows himself to fall prey. I'me sure we've all had issues with one corporation or another. Ironically, I've had an issue with Sprint a few years ago. It is, however, possible to deal with these corporations and reverse the charges, but it usually requires a lot of phone calls. It's just a matter of not letting them get the upper hand and hounding them until the situation is corrected.

cafeconleche said:
Anyway, being stateless isn't too bad right now because you're getting citizenship, so it's temporary, but, in general, it's not so great, right? :)
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Haha, being under the jurisdiction of the NYC DO, I have no idea when I'm getting my citizenship. Actually, scratch that, as I have a WOM coming at them in a couple of months (call that a way of dealing with a corporation). However, having been stateless for nearly 20 years, I really haven't encountered any difficulties. The only hassle is having to take out a travel document for foreign travel.
 
Wow!

Jackolantern said:
Suppose the IO who interviewed you confesses to accepting bribes from naturalization applicants during a certain time frame (including your interview), thus making his approvals suspect. So they go after many of the people he approved. 30 years later you have to prove that you naturalized on merit and didn't need a bribe.

Or the US elects a very xenophobic president and ICE gets an increased budget and they decide to use the money on another overzealous drive to denaturalize people en masse. Yes, they have to do it through the courts, but they've got the money to do it. You are selected because you appear to have failed to meet one of the requirements for naturalization. Your case appears that way because of their clerical error, but 20 years later you're on the spot to prove that their records are wrong and yours are right.

Or you are targeted by the government because you have spoken out against a war or have some other public disagreement with them. So they fish through your life ... questioning your employers and neighbors, digging up your travel records, anything to come up with a creative way to show that you lied on one of those "Have you EVER" questions.

Conspiracy theory? No, that's history. The US government has a long "tradition" of treating naturalized citizens worse than born citizens and wanting to denaturalize them, and the second-class distinction is even emboldened in the Constitution.
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This IS silly. you're giving yourself gray hair, a higher likely hood of baldness and clotting up your coronary arteries by worrying about hypotheticals. So long as YOU submitted the correct paperwork, read the fine print, and keep good records, the burden of proof is with the US government. Geez. If getting citizenship is so dangerous, WHY ARE YOU DOING IT? I don't mean to be sarcastic, but what you say is still academic. You control what you do...not the IO; not the DOJ and no the US government. You. This is my last response to this silly thing. Unless you're some type of criminal on your spare time; do or deal drugs; have violent tendencies; are a drunkard; are a habitual liar, etc, etc, you REALLY have NOTHING to worry about. No one is out to get you. This process is a SMALL part of life in general. It doesn't matter what type of citizen anyone is. We're all the same: human. No is more or less special. All citizenship does is give some social benefits that one can't have or do without it. CITIZENSHIP DOES NOT CURE LOW SELF-ESTEEM AND INFERIORITY COMPLEXES. Please chill and don't scare people with hypotheticals. If getting US citizenship was REALLY bad, then NO ONE WOULD DO IT. May the Force be with you.

Best,
-jedi
 
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