Interesting question on abadonment

N

namedude

Registered Users (C)
I am wondering if in this situation the person can keep GC.

One spouse is a US citizen. The other is a GC holder. The US citizen spouse decides to go on a temporary basis to another country to setup operations of a US company for 2 years. The spouse is just a GC holder - wants to stay with the US citizen spouse but does not setup any operations whatsoever just stays with the US citizen spouse.

So the GC holder trip can be seen as temporary because of the nature of the trip of US citizen spouse I guess.

But INS probably looks at this as not a valid reason. Because the GC holder spouse can simply live apart. I know it looks kind of stupid from moral standpoint but INS people are what they are.

Obviously in this scenario- the GC holder spouse would have a reentry permit.

Another question - when those 2 return together to the US - is there a risk that the GC holder would be put on the next plane back home or would be put in jail? I think you kind of see lots of scenarios like that. I know that valid reentry permit does not do a thing for you - or almost does not:)

The GC holder spouse can also apply for a new GC just in case. But does that make sense? Is there anything you can do to avoid the possibility of being sent back on the flight or put in jail altogether (awaiting court hearing I would imagine)?
 
namedude said:
Another question - when those 2 return together to the US - is there a risk that the GC holder would be put on the next plane back home or would be put in jail? I think you kind of see lots of scenarios like that. I know that valid reentry permit does not do a thing for you - or almost does not:)
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The reentry permit definitely does help. After being gone for over a year without a reentry permit, the green card is subject to almost-certain revocation, and is not valid by itself for reentering the US (an SB-1 Returning Resident Visa would be required). The reentry permit does not guarantee admission nor free you from the need to show ties to the US if asked, but it definitely helps with preserving the green card on long trips.

Where the reentry permit does not help much is with preserving continuous residence for citizenship purposes.
 
Yes. I agree with all the answers.

BUT

As we know immigration system here is based on discretion. A person who was out of the US for 2 years even on valid reentry permit will likely cause a lot of stir from the immigration officers. Now let's assume you get an IO who is going thru some divorce and is a really angry IO. Then his/her discretion is kind of running thin here.

So the person looks at - the reason to go abroad. Well the reason is to actually stay with US citizen spouse abroad who went their for temporary purpose. Well - that would probably not cut it for IO because the GC spouse could have stayed in the US while US citizen spouse could have gone for some temp reason. Being reunited most certainly does not cut it for INS - even for spouse of GC holders they seperate families on regular basis and see this as not a biggie.

Then - the IO can start sniffing around for ties to the US. Ties such as bank, credit cards, drivers licence etc. do not cut it for IO because the person can have those things while living permanently abroad.

The person does not own a house because of the mortgage bubble that was raging. Well that does not mean much for IO because the key is that there is no empty house waiting. Arguing that you have an address with a friend does not cut it because you can have it while living permanently abroad. And saying that all your bank statements go to a US address will make the IO laugh.

Then the reentry permit. Ok. It is valid and cool. But it does not show anything except for the fact that you can board a plane to the US. And then possibly arrive in a detention center with handcuffs on.

The the IO will ask where the job is. Well - even though you earn some income in the US - it is not substantial. And possibly it is used to show ties to the US - so can be completely discarded.

Then the taxes - ok the GC holder pays taxes - so what? This does not prove that the GC holder was abroad for a temporary reason. And stuff like having some stuff in storage is like creating even more mess altogether.

So the key is that a GC holder going away for 2 years has a very hard time to prove that the reason is temporary in such a case even though the ties exist and reentry permit is valid.

So in the worst case scenario - what can the GC holder do? I guess go back and reapply again? Also how to avoid jail/detention time in such a case? How many GC holders with valid reentry permits end up in jail because the IO was going on a rampage?

Thanks!
 
namedude said:
So in the worst case scenario - what can the GC holder do? I guess go back and reapply again? Also how to avoid jail/detention time in such a case? How many GC holders with valid reentry permits end up in jail because the IO was going on a rampage?

Thanks!
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Why would you go to jail? Seeking admission to the US that is subsequently denied is not a crime. The worst that would happen is that you would be detained pending being put on the first flight back to where you came from. However, I think that assuming the GC holder and citizen spouse were returning together and had evidence of their intentions to remain in the US for the foreseeable future (such as a lease on a rental property that they plan to move to), it would be a very mean IO that didn't allow entry. If they're in a particularly bad mood then they could possibly flag the GC holder for further investigation but I can't imagine them refusing admission.
 
dms1 said:
Why would you go to jail? Seeking admission to the US that is subsequently denied is not a crime. The worst that would happen is that you would be detained pending being put on the first flight back to where you came from. However, I think that assuming the GC holder and citizen spouse were returning together and had evidence of their intentions to remain in the US for the foreseeable future (such as a lease on a rental property that they plan to move to), it would be a very mean IO that didn't allow entry. If they're in a particularly bad mood then they could possibly flag the GC holder for further investigation but I can't imagine them refusing admission.
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Well - I said jail but meant detention center. They are very similar by the way. You have a cell and you are transported there in handcuffs. Lots of people get traumatized when they get this type of service courtesy of US govt. You do not stay in this detention center for a very long time - only about a day or so and then you are transported in handcuffs for your flight back to wherever you came from. There are lots of articles on this. Many went thru this procedure already.

I talked to an immigration lawyer and this is his take on this:
1) It is unlikely they would resort to putting a person with valid reentry permit in a detention center. However entry is dicretionary. In most cases the person who went out for 2 years cannot prove the intentions to come back. INS let this slide for some time but may ramp up on this issue.

2) Having valid reentry permit does not protect you when you are coming back. You have to prove that this was a temporary trip..... Proving is very difficult in general.

3) Ties kind of help. But paying taxes or having bank accts and valid drivers license helps very very little. Anybody can have this.

4) Even if US citizen spouse can prove that the trip was temporary - this means absolutely nothing when it comes to GC holder. Because INS generally does not recognize living with your spouse as a valid reason to go abroad. Hence this will not help at all.

5) Having some employment links in the US when you are a GC holder does not help much because you can live abroad and have employment links in the US as well.

So basically it will be up to IO. If the IO has a cough or suffers from depression or sthg like that - then it could be that such GC holder could end up in detention center easily. Having lease agreement when you get back is at best fishy for IO. You did not even - see the apartment before leasing? So this could even work against you.

The key is that it is all discretionary. So the US govt could probably deport 95% of GC holders who are coming back:) They don't. So you have to kind of see if they get you or some other guy. The key is to get an IO that has a decent life and has a normal mood. This is not based on law very much.

For us - we kind of want to decide whether it makes sense to apply for a new GC in spite of the fact that we decided to stay abroad temporarily. Also I wonder what other GC holders do in similar situations.

Thank you!
 
Also my lawyer said that storing personal belongings is dumm and can work against you that you are trying sthg funny. Because it does not make sense to store say a mattress for 2 years because the amount of money you spend will be more than the value of the mattress. That is the problem.

Same thing is with a car etc. Storing some old car when you make a lot of money will be frowned upon INS.

I also don't know. But this line of reasoning is that nobody is safe on GC unless the person goes on a VERY short trip.

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I am a layman and this is not legal advice.
 
I haven't asked the lawyer but following this line of reasoning - having a house in the US might also not help. Many people living outside of the US on a permanent basis have houses here.

Even a letter from company that this is temp employment outside will cause a stir............It does not prove you will get back etc. etc.

----------------------------
I am a layman and this is not legal advice.
 
namedude said:
I also don't know. But this line of reasoning is that nobody is safe on GC unless the person goes on a VERY short trip.
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I think you just negated your own paranoid argument there. The fact that virtually every returning GC holder could, by your argument, be refused admission, whereas in reality that doesn't happen suggests that either your underlying reasoning is wrong, or the IOs apply a much more pragmatic interpretation to the rules and guidelines.

If by chance you ever become an IO yourself, please be sure to post where you are working so that we can all avoid that point of entry. I'd hate to be refused admission for having completed a form in the wrong color ink or not having included the middle name of my maternal grandmother. ;)
 
namedude said:
3) Ties kind of help. But paying taxes or having bank accts and valid drivers license helps very very little. Anybody can have this.
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It's not so much that having those things proves you have ties to the US, it's that the lack of them indicates you don't. Australian residents normally have Australian bank accounts and have Australian drivers licenses and pay Australian taxes. Brazilian residents do the same for Brazil. If somebody has none of those things for the country they claim to be a resident of, and they spend a substantial amount of time outside the country while lacking those things, it raises a serious doubt as to whether they are a bona fide resident.
4) Even if US citizen spouse can prove that the trip was temporary - this means absolutely nothing when it comes to GC holder. Because INS generally does not recognize living with your spouse as a valid reason to go abroad. Hence this will not help at all.
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You're wrong, because they do recognize that accompanying a spouse is an acceptable reason to be overseas. That's why they grant expedited citizenship to spouses of certain US citizens stationed abroad, and the spouse of an overseas employee can benefit from an N-470 for naturalization.
 
Now after reading all thgese one is under impression that USCIS issue a green card to a person only in order to revoke it at any possible chance USCIS can get. It does not make much sense.
 
WBH said:
Now after reading all these one is under impression that USCIS issue a green card to a person only in order to revoke it at any possible chance USCIS can get.
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No, USCIS gives you a Green Card for you to reside in the US and not commit crimes that make you deportable. Tens of millions of people have been able to accomplish this without much difficulty.
 
TheRealCanadian said:
No, USCIS gives you a Green Card for you to reside in the US and not commit crimes that make you deportable. Tens of millions of people have been able to accomplish this without much difficulty.
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I completely agree with that. US issue GC supposedly to productive, working people participating actively in the community. For others with non-admissible or deportable crimes, I think te US have a relatively high crime rate (have to deal with those because they are citizen) and do not need to increase this pool with immigrants even if they get GC by one way or the other (This has nothing to do with the people posting here or with those with minor problems anyone may be exposed to). The DMV issue DL for those who drive safely and may do some traffic violations which are not dangerous enough to make their DLs revoked.
 
My point still stands. The abandonment is a very relative thing. A person may have a valid reentry permit and maybe even on a temporary extended trip abroad but may loose the GC based on the fact that this is a subjective process and not an objective process.

Most people who have GCs generally stay in the US until citizenship so this is no issue to them.

Most people who go for extended trips are able to come to the US without any problems as well. But the key is that some of those people (a small percentage) maybe deported.

The key is that it is almost impossible to prove that a trip for 2 years was a temporary one. So a valid reentry permit helps, some ties help but this is really up to IO to let you in or not. At least this is what my lawyer told me. There are absolutely no guarantees. And if sb thinks that having reentry permit, filing taxes, having US bank acct makes him safe then think again!

From my perspective I will have to make a decision whether to go through the small risk or not.

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I am not a lawyer and this maybe bogus advice.
 
namedude said:
The key is that it is almost impossible to prove that a trip for 2 years was a temporary one. So a valid reentry permit helps, some ties help but this is really up to IO to let you in or not. At least this is what my lawyer told me. There are absolutely no guarantees.
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That is correct, there are no guarantees .... there may always that 1% chance that the IO decides to turn you away despite having the permit and ties, etc. Only US citizens have an absolute guarantee of being able to return.

But my understanding is that once you have the permit and card and return while both are still unexpired, the IO cannot just turn you away without giving you a chance to fight it out in court (assuming no other deportable/inadmissible issues like you committed a crime). You may be detained or given house arrest while you wait for your court date, but you'll still get that chance. The IO's decision at the POE is not necessarily the end of the game.
 
The key is also that INS can actually lock you up for hearing. This is the worst case scenario and not very likely - but one has to be aware especially if things are discretionary.

If they put you into a detention center - you get to see handcuffs put on you. If you have never been a criminal - you will now get to feel like one. You will see a jail cell. And that will ruin you psychologically for many years to come.

So although the likelyhood of sthg bad happening is very small - the penalty is very high. That is you will have psychological disorder potentially for the rest of your life. For INS this is no biggie anyways - and they probably feel foreigners are not going to think of having handcuffs on - as a big deal. After all there are many inmates in the US who do not complain. Still for some this can be a big deal.

Normally the good thing is that after 2 years of being abroad technically my wife will get US citizenship in 2 years time and not 3 years time. But this could come at a small risk. Whether it is tolerable - I do not know. Otherwise she can relinquish GC and reapply immediately for a new one - it does not make sense since she is on a temporary trip. But it is possibly the safest route.
 
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