Indian citizen baby born in US - have others had this situation?

[tamtom]

So, if US citizenship attaches to a person by virtue of birth and this is something parents cannot renounce for a minor child - the child should be able to regain Indian citizenship (so to speak) when he/she turns 18. This is not an ideal solution, I guess.

It does not solve the problem as we see it. It would mean the person is without Indian citizenship for the entire period of childhood, and then has to apply again for it (not assert it as a birthright).

Meanwhile, what does it say about the world if a child has to give up Indian citizenship in favor of US citizenship in order to make a trip to visit her grandparents? If we give in to that circumstance, what kind of example would it set for the child? If that happened, could we really expect the child to grow up with a sense of belonging and pride in being Indian?

We are currently in India with our child. We successfully brought our daughter from the US to India on her Indian passport, so she is still an Indian citizen at this moment.

As for the trip back to the US, we don't have any breakthrough yet. We're aiming to come back in January, and I'll post the outcome after that. We do need to return to the US, as one of the child's grandparents lives there, is too old and infirm to move to India, and is not of Indian origin so not eligible for a long-term visa to India.

--Tamtom

 

[indinfotech]

Your Problem is much bigger than the Passport.

The Problem you have the fear that your kid might not take Indian citizenship when she grows up and you want to dictate it right now. You think that forcing Indian citizenship on the kid enforce it make it going.



It is not passport identifies the citizenship or patriotism. It is the belief system of the person and values they believe in. Just because some body living in USA don’t automatically looks their love for the country where they are born. And same goes thru the kids of Indian origin even they born in USA can still hold same value system they get from parents and at times even more than parents who live in India.

You won’t force a kid more patriotic more value oriented because you push him one way or other.

No body becomes PROUD INDIAN because you hold Indian passport same goes to your kid. Build that value system so by 18th she makes that choice.

What do you do, if your kid when she is 18 comes back and ask why did you push me Indian passport on me , and now it is becoming hard to do my higher education in USA or not able to go to USA?. She could say you betrayed her birth right? .

There is clean answer what holds in 20 yrs down the line, so all any body think of what best things we are giving to our kids

 

[ashu1174]

Finally...

It does not solve the problem as we see it. It would mean the person is without Indian citizenship for the entire period of childhood, and then has to apply again for it (not assert it as a birthright).

Meanwhile, what does it say about the world if a child has to give up Indian citizenship in favor of US citizenship in order to make a trip to visit her grandparents? If we give in to that circumstance, what kind of example would it set for the child? If that happened, could we really expect the child to grow up with a sense of belonging and pride in being Indian?

We are currently in India with our child. We successfully brought our daughter from the US to India on her Indian passport, so she is still an Indian citizen at this moment.

As for the trip back to the US, we don't have any breakthrough yet. We're aiming to come back in January, and I'll post the outcome after that. We do need to return to the US, as one of the child's grandparents lives there, is too old and infirm to move to India, and is not of Indian origin so not eligible for a long-term visa to India.

--Tamtom

Hello Tamtom,

Congratulations.
I think you were fighting it out for a long time and finally you made it. It will be useful if you could post your experience/details on how you succeeded to fly back to India with the Indian passport for your child. Also, later...how you succeeded (I am sure you will) to fly back to the US.

I think there are quite a few people stuck in a similar position as that of yours. But, they are not really determined and not ready to put that extra effort...I think. [Maybe I am wrong? I don't know]
Also, there is other distractions like:
1) Hope/Promise of getting OCI after 18.
2) Fear of the Unknown (no body knows where and how they are going to be after 20 years...both for themselves and their kids).

 

[rogerkint]

It does not solve the problem as we see it. It would mean the person is without Indian citizenship for the entire period of childhood, and then has to apply again for it (not assert it as a birthright).
--Tamtom

Unless India changes the underlying law your child will have birthright to Indian citizenship which can be exercised at age 18. If she continues to live in India, she will very much be in tune with her Indian heritage and be ready to do this.

By accident, fortune, fate...what have you. Your child is also a US Citizen at birth - it is also a proud legacy to have - a country that delcared at birth - "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." It is a legacy that respects each person to define their identity themslves - hence not even you, as a parent, can give up that right for your child.

Ideal situation would be for India and US to recognize the child as a dual national, at least until they are old enough to choose. US allows this - India does not.

The right to US citizenship at birth is a long-standing US tradition - any changes to this will have major ramifications for a lot of people. I think it is extremely unlikely that this will be changed in the near future and I do not think it is a desirable change even (lot of people would like it because that would mean children of illegal aliens would not be legal residents either).

It would be great if the Indian government would consider letting minor children eligiblle for dual citizenship to wait untile 18 to choose.

Meanwhile you have, under existing laws, several sub-optimal choices. That's just the way it is. i think if it were optimal for you - it might result in sub-optimal outcomes for others.

rk

 

[tamtom]

Hello Tamtom,

Congratulations.
I think you were fighting it out for a long time and finally you made it. It will be useful if you could post your experience/details on how you succeeded to fly back to India with the Indian passport for your child. Also, later...how you succeeded (I am sure you will) to fly back to the US.

I think there are quite a few people stuck in a similar position as that of yours. But, they are not really determined and not ready to put that extra effort...I think. [Maybe I am wrong? I don't know]
Also, there is other distractions like:
1) Hope/Promise of getting OCI after 18.
2) Fear of the Unknown (no body knows where and how they are going to be after 20 years...both for themselves and their kids).

Ashu1174,

Thanks for the encouraging words. The US-India leg of the trip was easy. We used the baby's Indian passport and there were no hassles at all either boarding the plane or clearing on arrival. We then contacted the US consulate in India and informed them we are here, and they showed absolutely no interest in penalizing us for the baby's trip here without a US passport. After all, the main intent of their passport requirement is to ensure US citizens don't get in trouble abroad, which obviously doesn't apply in our case.

I will post the outcome of our attempt to return when it happens.

Hope this helps,

Tamtom

 

[ashu1174]

Thanks

Ashu1174,

Thanks for the encouraging words. The US-India leg of the trip was easy. We used the baby's Indian passport and there were no hassles at all either boarding the plane or clearing on arrival. We then contacted the US consulate in India and informed them we are here, and they showed absolutely no interest in penalizing us for the baby's trip here without a US passport. After all, the main intent of their passport requirement is to ensure US citizens don't get in trouble abroad, which obviously doesn't apply in our case.

I will post the outcome of our attempt to return when it happens.

Hope this helps,

Tamtom

Hello Tamtom,

Yes. It really helps.
Most of the time information received on the forum is about getting the US passport and that looks like the *only* option when you read the forums. Neither Indian Embassy website nor the US Embassy website talk about the option of getting Indian passport even when the child is born in the US. So, it becomes more or less the only option.

It helps to know situations like yours and definitely your situation and your posts can at the least provide options for people who are interested.

To me, since we are not planning to settledown here, I am not able to justify getting US passport for my child.

Thanks again.

 

[sammySam]

Dont understand why this is a problem

Tomtom,
Your child *was* born on the US soil. So by definition of *birthright* its his/her birthright to get a US passport.

He/She is a different person, a different entity of her own. Pls dont force YOUR birthright on her.

If there were a world where they are no visas, no passport & true border-less countries, he/she wont need anything to visit grandparents!
A PIO and a OCS is almost similar to having Indian status. And she is indian because her parents are indian - P of Indian Origin.

There are NO issues in schools and colleges for PIOs. My kids were in india for a few years. They are US citizens, PIO cards. No school objected their entry. They were in NORMAL school - not international one.
I have cousins who are US citizens doing normal college in india. wihtout any issues. they did SSC/HSC like normal indian kids. THere is NO differentiation.

In the long run, your kid will blame you for renouncing its birthright, which is a US passport. Once he/she is 18 and can make own decisions she CAN give up her citizenship and get indian citizenship.

 

[ashu1174]

There are issues!

Tomtom,
Your child *was* born on the US soil. So by definition of *birthright* its his/her birthright to get a US passport.

He/She is a different person, a different entity of her own. Pls dont force YOUR birthright on her.

If there were a world where they are no visas, no passport & true border-less countries, he/she wont need anything to visit grandparents!
A PIO and a OCS is almost similar to having Indian status. And she is indian because her parents are indian - P of Indian Origin.

There are NO issues in schools and colleges for PIOs. My kids were in india for a few years. They are US citizens, PIO cards. No school objected their entry. They were in NORMAL school - not international one.
I have cousins who are US citizens doing normal college in india. wihtout any issues. they did SSC/HSC like normal indian kids. THere is NO differentiation.

In the long run, your kid will blame you for renouncing its birthright, which is a US passport. Once he/she is 18 and can make own decisions she CAN give up her citizenship and get indian citizenship.

Hello Sammysam,

You have a point in saying that there are no issues with USC+PIO since you state some of your experience. However, these things are not well defined in India and can change from place to place.

I think there should not be any issue with the elementary school, but there are issues with college and higher education. Where are your cousins studying college? (which state, city). Because, I think some of this change from place to place.

There are lot of other issues, like...
a) I did not know that the PIO were paying more price for even domestic Air travel in India. This is a big issue.
b) I was surprised to read sometime back that the PIO has to pay more entry fee for entry into historical places like Taj Mahal. This is absurd and really makes it difficult.

Also, if the parents were here just for few years (say on a one term of 3 years of H1-B) and had kids here (and could not go back to India for many reasons...both personal and professional) and do not plan to settle down in the US, then it does not really makes sense to have US citizenship for kids...isn't it? They can as well have Indian Citizenship and if the kids are capable, they can always go wherever they want (US, UK...wherever depending on the talent and capability). After all, coming to US should not be the only *goal* for anyone in life.

What do you say?

 

[rogerkint]

TomTom,

There should not be much of an issue at k-12 level in tersm of education. As you noted - nothing is guaranteed - maybe laws change etc. As it stands now, foreign nationals can take the JEE exams too. Well, if there are some avenues closed in India - there are a lot of good universities in the US that one could attend (with citizenship and lower Rs family income - studnets can get financial aid. Of course, also not to forget that at age 18 - the child can renounce the Us citizenship and apply for admissions to college in india as an Indian national.

I can tell you two cases of people I know of who went two ways.

the first was a friend who was born in the US as her parents were in school - moved to India and never even held a US passport. When she turned 18, she went to the US consulate - got a US passport and moved here to go to university - as her family income in $$ was very low - she got financial aid and finally went to med school (she used to joke that she was considered below poverty level hence never had to pay fees for all the exams like SAT, MCAT etc.)

Another person was was born and raised in Canada. She gave up Canadian citizenship and topped the IAS exams - I just googled her (Rita Singh, IAS 1997 batch) and it seems like she left IAS to get an MBA at Harvard and works for Deloitte Consulting. Oh well....

I applaud you for sticking to your convictions and trying to do what you think is right. However, it appears that being born in the US will be something that your child will have to deal with - at best, I think it will be a non-issue - if it causes some problems, it will also give him/her a few benefits. In sum, I think it is best not to overengineer a solution here - you are right - rules may change but you'll find ways to deal with it. At least your kid won'e be like my friend from Turkish occupied Cyprus - in legal limbo about his status because his government is not recognized by the US and he is not recognized by the Greek Cypriot government as a citizen.

 

[lovemusk]

A good enough solution

Tamtom,

Is it possible to convince the US authorities to issue visa on Indian PP of US born child with Indian PP? It is easier to communicate with US authorities than Indian.

If that were made possible, then travel between India and US would be easy. And both citizenships would also remain intact.

Your comments...?

And please do tell us about your experience of coming back to US on US BC and Indian PP.

Regards,
Anmol

 

[rogerkint]

Tamtom,

Is it possible to convince the US authorities to issue visa on Indian PP of US born child with Indian PP? It is easier to communicate with US authorities than Indian.

If that were made possible, then travel between India and US would be easy. And both citizenships would also remain intact.

Your comments...?

And please do tell us about your experience of coming back to US on US BC and Indian PP.

Regards,
Anmol

The child's visa application will list US as place of birth plus he/she will have to answer the questions "have you ever been in the US?" and "have you ever been issued a US visa?". The combination of answers to these questions is going to indicate to even the sleepiest consular officer that "hey, i need to go look this up". A US Citizen and has to enter the US on a US passport so they cannot issue him/her a visa.

Of course, best thing is to apply for the visa and then see what happens or just talk to consular services at the embassy.

If they deny a visa, I doubt there is anything legal you can do because there is no such thing as a "right to US visa".

 

[sammySam]

Will not need visa to enter US. just birth certificate

Presenting the birth certificate to immigration officers at the US port of entry will be enough, specially as the kid is a minor.

 

[cool_r2i]

The child's visa application will list US as place of birth plus he/she will have to answer the questions "have you ever been in the US?" and "have you ever been issued a US visa?". The combination of answers to these questions is going to indicate to even the sleepiest consular officer that "hey, i need to go look this up". A US Citizen and has to enter the US on a US passport so they cannot issue him/her a visa.

Of course, best thing is to apply for the visa and then see what happens or just talk to consular services at the embassy.

If they deny a visa, I doubt there is anything legal you can do because there is no such thing as a "right to US visa".

Don't you think that it would be the case where in USA either gives you Visa on the Indian Passport _OR_ allow you to get and travel on US Passport[Obviously, these two are mutually exclusive and at least one condition would be TRUE. Right]? Then, probably one can decide if retaining Indian citizenship is important _OR_ traveling to USA is...right? But, according to existing rules, India will not issue a passport if you are holding US passport.

 

[cool_r2i]

Presenting the birth certificate to immigration officers at the US port of entry will be enough, specially as the kid is a minor.

This may not be true always. Until last week, lot of people (even adults) used to travel to and from USA with BirthCertificate _OR_ Driver's license. But, 2 days back USA made it mandatory for all the travelers to have Passport. So, the scrutiny might become more strict. Also, it can be difficult if the kid is not a toddler!

 

[rogerkint]

true

Don't you think that it would be the case where in USA either gives you Visa on the Indian Passport _OR_ allow you to get and travel on US Passport[Obviously, these two are mutually exclusive and at least one condition would be TRUE. Right]? Then, probably one can decide if retaining Indian citizenship is important _OR_ traveling to USA is...right? But, according to existing rules, India will not issue a passport if you are holding US passport.

Mutually exclusive is not the same as collectively exhaustive Us government will issue you a US passport if you are determined to be a US citizen (as a child born in the US is) and they do not really care what other passports you have.

Two problems - 1. Indian cares - so if you get a foreign passport you are supposed to give your Indian one back
2. If you get a US passport and travel to the US - then in effect, you have invalidated your Indian passport
3. The OP did not want his/her kid to get a US passport. That was the starting pint of this whole discussion.

 

[cool_r2i]

right

Mutually exclusive is not the same as collectively exhaustive Us government will issue you a US passport if you are determined to be a US citizen (as a child born in the US is) and they do not really care what other passports you have.

Two problems - 1. Indian cares - so if you get a foreign passport you are supposed to give your Indian one back
2. If you get a US passport and travel to the US - then in effect, you have invalidated your Indian passport
3. The OP did not want his/her kid to get a US passport. That was the starting pint of this whole discussion.

I was referring to "US passport and visa-on-Indian-passport (for US born kid)" as being Mutually exclusive. I agree, other options are collectively exhaustive. In fact, some of them are both collectively exhaustive and mutually exclusive

Jargons apart,
I did go through the original post and most of the replies also. So, I think getting Indian passport works fine for a kid if parents are planning a one way trip to India. Ofcourse, even if they just want to visit US later along with the kid, they are going to have to give up Indian passport. But, if they hold on to Indian passport, then the kid will have the option of chosing between US _OR_ Indian passport, citizenship later at 18. But, the otherway is not ture. India will not give citizenship/passport if you have taken US passport.

In fact, the OP is in a better position since one of the parents in their case (as stated in the original post) is a US citizen. So, they do not have the fear of losing US citizenship anyway.

 

[rohufish]

impossible to keep indian passport according to laws

it is my analysis that it is impossible to legally retain indian passport for a US-born kid. to see why, all you need is the following rule:

here is the specific quotation from the US laws:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001185----000-.html

§ 1185. Travel control of citizens and aliens

(b) Citizens

Except as otherwise provided by the President and subject to such limitations and exceptions as the President may authorize and prescribe, it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the United States unless he bears a valid United States passport.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

how then is an indian citizen baby supposed to legally depart from the US while retaining Indian citizenship? even if the kid obtains an indian passport (after due registration of indian citizen birth at the indian embassy), they cannot DEPART at all from the USA without getting a US passport. and as soon as they get the US passport (even if ONLY for a one-way trip to india, never to be used again, and renounced at age 18), the indian one gets invalidated.

 

[tamtom]

how then is an indian citizen baby supposed to legally depart from the US while retaining Indian citizenship? even if the kid obtains an indian passport (after due registration of indian citizen birth at the indian embassy), they cannot DEPART at all from the USA without getting a US passport. and as soon as they get the US passport (even if ONLY for a one-way trip to india, never to be used again, and renounced at age 18), the indian one gets invalidated.

As I posted before, it is not clear at all that the above US rule is applicable to foreign citizens with foreign passports traveling to their other country of citizenship. This has not been tested since the US has never made any attempt to enforce it in such a case.

In our case, soon after our arrival in India, we told the US consulate we had come without getting the baby a US passport. I even went in person to the US consulate. They showed no interest in punishing us.

Maybe we should have an FAQ about US-born babies in a sticky thread here.

--Tamtom

 

[cool_r2i]

it is my analysis that it is impossible to legally retain indian passport for a US-born kid. to see why, all you need is the following rule:

here is the specific quotation from the US laws:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001185----000-.html

§ 1185. Travel control of citizens and aliens

(b) Citizens

Except as otherwise provided by the President and subject to such limitations and exceptions as the President may authorize and prescribe, it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the United States unless he bears a valid United States passport.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

how then is an indian citizen baby supposed to legally depart from the US while retaining Indian citizenship? even if the kid obtains an indian passport (after due registration of indian citizen birth at the indian embassy), they cannot DEPART at all from the USA without getting a US passport. and as soon as they get the US passport (even if ONLY for a one-way trip to india, never to be used again, and renounced at age 18), the indian one gets invalidated.

There is an FAQ of this nature...
"My baby was born in America and I have his/her birth certificate. He/She also has an Indian passport and I have taken an appointment for him/her. Is this okay?".
on the website of US consulate in chennai.
See...http://chennai.usconsulate.gov/bepfaq.html

So, this makes us think that US consulate in chennai is aware of people going back to India on Indian passport and they are not imposing the rule for EXIT from USA. However, I think they are imposing the rule for ENTRY in to the USA.

 

[envision]

There is an FAQ of this nature...
"My baby was born in America and I have his/her birth certificate. He/She also has an Indian passport and I have taken an appointment for him/her. Is this okay?".
on the website of US consulate in chennai.
See...http://chennai.usconsulate.gov/bepfaq.html

So, this makes us think that US consulate in chennai is aware of people going back to India on Indian passport and they are not imposing the rule for EXIT from USA. However, I think they are imposing the rule for ENTRY in to the USA.

Yep, I'm keeping an eye on this thread to see what happens when he decided to come back with the baby.