Indian citizen baby born in US - have others had this situation?

[rogerkint]

There is an FAQ of this nature...
"My baby was born in America and I have his/her birth certificate. He/She also has an Indian passport and I have taken an appointment for him/her. Is this okay?".
on the website of US consulate in chennai.
See...http://chennai.usconsulate.gov/bepfaq.html

So, this makes us think that US consulate in chennai is aware of people going back to India on Indian passport and they are not imposing the rule for EXIT from USA. However, I think they are imposing the rule for ENTRY in to the USA.

When you leave the US to another country with a valid passport from that country - there is little the US Immigration can practically do - can they prevent you from leaving the country? To what end?

On the other hand when you try to enter the country they have to decide if they should let you in. So, you need a visa or proof of citizenship. Of late, proof of citizenship means passport.

This seems logically sound. Not that immigration laws are logical all the time...

 

[shs2007]

A thought for getting OCI for the child

I am in a similar situation as many on this forum/thread. I am wondering if something like the following would work:

1. Register and get the Indian passport for the child first. This makes him/her Indian citizen

2. Get US passport for the child and give up Indian citizenship as you cannot keep both

3. Apply for OCI for the child based on his/her own passport (as required by the OCI laws). In this case parents being Indian Citizen's shouldn't matter as the OCI for the child is not based on parents OCI status (as stated by the OCI law).

I know the flip side of this is, if the child ever wants to become a full Indian citizen, there will be a likely problem of giving up the citizenship. I think this can be worked out by working with the authorities and explaining US passport requirement for travel was understood after getting the Indian passport, etc (I at least hope so though I know it's easier said than done).

Appreciate any thoughts and comments if anyone has tried something like this.

Thanks

 

[rogerkint]

what's your goal?

I am in a similar situation as many on this forum/thread. I am wondering if something like the following would work:

1. Register and get the Indian passport for the child first. This makes him/her Indian citizen

2. Get US passport for the child and give up Indian citizenship as you cannot keep both

3. Apply for OCI for the child based on his/her own passport (as required by the OCI laws). In this case parents being Indian Citizen's shouldn't matter as the OCI for the child is not based on parents OCI status (as stated by the OCI law).

I know the flip side of this is, if the child ever wants to become a full Indian citizen, there will be a likely problem of giving up the citizenship. I think this can be worked out by working with the authorities and explaining US passport requirement for travel was understood after getting the Indian passport, etc (I at least hope so though I know it's easier said than done).

Appreciate any thoughts and comments if anyone has tried something like this.

Thanks

What are you trying to accomplish? Why wouldn't a PIO card do?

 

[simjnj]

NRI status

I am also planning to return back to India, since my kid was born in USA and has a US passport, will he be treated as an NRI in india then?

What are pros and cons of it?

 

[shs2007]

OCI is as close to a citizenship as it gets

What are you trying to accomplish? Why wouldn't a PIO card do?

The only reason for OCI is that it's the closest option to citizenship. If I could get citizenship, that would be the first preference. Given all the issues, I am wondering if I could at least get OCI status instead of PIO

 

[cool_r2i]

workarounds everywhere!

Looks like everyone is trying to workaround the rules. The governments have made such illogical rules that every parent in this situation is just trying to workaround.

The problem is with people who want best of both worlds. People who decide on US citizenship don't have any problem. But, if you want to retain Indian citizenship (for any reason whatsoever), you are in a fix. No easy solution.

If wishful thinking allows me, I would have preferred either of the following two:
a) US understands and allows people to chose citizenship for their children.
b) India understands and allows dual citizenship atleast until the age of 18.
Don't know if there is light on the end of the tunnel.

 

[cool_r2i]

Did you find an answer?

I am in a similar situation as many on this forum/thread. I am wondering if something like the following would work:

1. Register and get the Indian passport for the child first. This makes him/her Indian citizen

2. Get US passport for the child and give up Indian citizenship as you cannot keep both

3. Apply for OCI for the child based on his/her own passport (as required by the OCI laws). In this case parents being Indian Citizen's shouldn't matter as the OCI for the child is not based on parents OCI status (as stated by the OCI law).

I know the flip side of this is, if the child ever wants to become a full Indian citizen, there will be a likely problem of giving up the citizenship. I think this can be worked out by working with the authorities and explaining US passport requirement for travel was understood after getting the Indian passport, etc (I at least hope so though I know it's easier said than done).

Appreciate any thoughts and comments if anyone has tried something like this.

Thanks

Did you find an answer for this question? _OR_ found any alternative? Please share it here, if you have any update on this.

 

[ckforum]

tamtom,

I have read some your posts in this thread and other threads. I am delighted with your resolve to preserve Indian Citizenship for you child. Your clarity of thought, focus, and knowledge are impressive.

I am in situation unlike yours but we are expecting our first child and I have been doing some research about OCI/Citizenship etc. I have talked to US state department, US consulate/Embessay in India, and Indian counsulate in San Franciso.

The inforation that I gatherd agrees with what you and other know that is - a US citizen child or child with claim to US citizenship would not be issued US visa. But, a lawyer's web site - http://www.cyrusmehta.com/News.aspx?SubIdx=1033&Month=&From=Menu&Page=29&Year=All - mentions that it is possible to get non-immigrant visa for Indian Passport holder child.

The other possible way to enter US without using US visa or US passport - which I belive you have already considred - is to enter the US from Canda by land with the US Birth Certificate.

 

[indoamerican]

indian parents with baby

As parent you can apply for indian passport..actually your baby has time to decide until he or she turns 18. I wouldn't worry about it

 

[tamtom]

As parent you can apply for indian passport..actually your baby has time to decide until he or she turns 18. I wouldn't worry about it

It's not that simple. Please read the whole thread.

We got the child the Indian passport. The problem is how to travel between the US and India? US insists on getting the child a US passport in that case, but if we take it then India cancels the child's Indian passport until 18.

Hope this clarifies,

Tamtom

 

[tamtom]

I am in situation unlike yours but we are expecting our first child and I have been doing some research about OCI/Citizenship etc. I have talked to US state department, US consulate/Embessay in India, and Indian counsulate in San Franciso.

The inforation that I gatherd agrees with what you and other know that is - a US citizen child or child with claim to US citizenship would not be issued US visa. But, a lawyer's web site - http://www.cyrusmehta.com/News.aspx?SubIdx=1033&Month=&From=Menu&Page=29&Year=All - mentions that it is possible to get non-immigrant visa for Indian Passport holder child.

The State Dept. operating procedure is they would grant the non-immigrant visa only if the applicant's claim to US citizenship is not an obvious one. In case of birth in the US, they won't give the visa. The US Consulate in Mumbai refused to give our daughter a visa. We heard the same from other people and it is also an FAQ on the website of the US Consulate in Chennai.

The other possible way to enter US without using US visa or US passport - which I belive you have already considred - is to enter the US from Canda by land with the US Birth Certificate.

This is a good solution. Unfortunately, the Canadian Consulate in Los Angeles refused to consider our daughter's visa application, saying they don't give visas to US citizens! (The US and Canada have a visa waiver agreement.) It may be different in the Canadian consulates in India, but we don't know the answer at this time.

--Tamtom

 

[envision]

I don't mean to be insensitive, but you made your bed so lie in it.You're making life unnecessarily difficult for absolutely no reason. The child is a US citizen, why can't you just wait until she turns eighteen to make up her own mind as to which passport she wants to hold?

 

[tamtom]

I don't mean to be insensitive, but you made your bed so lie in it.You're making life unnecessarily difficult for absolutely no reason. The child is a US citizen, why can't you just wait until she turns eighteen to make up her own mind as to which passport she wants to hold?

There's a big difference between having both citizenships at 18 and choosing which one she wants to keep, versus being a sole citizen of the US at 18 and choosing either to keep it or renounce it and apply for Indian citizenship as a foreigner. If she doesn't keep Indian citizenship now, the choice of taking it at 18 becomes a much harder one to make. And then there's the fact that for her entire childhood she'd have to be a foreigner while living in India.

As for making our own bed so lie in it, in our case one parent is a US citizen who's not of Indian origin. The only way we could have avoided the child being a US citizen would be to delay having a child for seven years so the US citizen parent would become eligible for Indian citizenship.

Are you saying when an Indian citizen marries a US one they have to accept going into it that US citizenship is the only one possible for the children? That's not the case with most pairs of countries.

A lot of other people in this situation are on temporary stays in the US for business, and had no idea about the existance of the problem until their child was born. Many people are very surprised when they learn the details of this problem, having believed it would be no problem for their children to get Indian citizenship. Are you rolling your eyes at all of these people because they failed to do a deep study of US and Indian nationality laws before they accepted their job assignments in the US?

The current situation in which the kids are losing Indian citizenship when visiting India is not the way either country intended their systems to work. But neither country foresaw the other's quirks when they created their rules.

So, I don't think it's too much to expect a solution to this problem. Indian citizenship should be easily available to anyone eligible for it, and those people should be able to make trips to India without losing it.

Hope this clarifies,

Tamtom

 

[cool_r2i]

A lot of other people in this situation are on temporary stays in the US for business, and had no idea about the existance of the problem until their child was born. Many people are very surprised when they learn the details of this problem, having believed it would be no problem for their children to get Indian citizenship. Are you rolling your eyes at all of these people because they failed to do a deep study of US and Indian nationality laws before they accepted their job assignments in the US?
Tamtom

It is very much true that a lot of people are in this situation.
a) Some of them are willing to get the US citizenship and are happy about it.
b) Some of them fail to understand the complexity of this and assume that getting Indian citizenship is easy later. On the contrary, having made the Persons of Indian origin wait for more than 2 years with lots of promises, Government of India announced OCI which is just a glorified visa and nothing more than that.
c) Some other people understand this, but are not able to fight it because of issues of travel and are not able to fight because of various other reasons.

As far as I know, there are a lot of countries which allow dual citizenship with USA. But, India is very particular about this and does not allow dual citizenship. I think they should at least allow this for the minors. I think there is NO political will for this and there are not many people trying to push this.

 

[tamtom]

As far as I know, there are a lot of countries which allow dual citizenship with USA. But, India is very particular about this and does not allow dual citizenship.

That's a common misconception. India does allow dual CITIZENSHIP for minors, but not dual PASSPORTS. These children only will lose Indian citizenship if they get a US passport. That's probably because other countries like the UK don't make their passport mandatory for their dual citizens.

But the US does make both its passport and its citizenship mandatory for US-born children. That possibility was probably overlooked by the authors of the Indian rules. So, the issue really is to correct this oversight, not create something radically new.

Hope this clarifies,

Tamtom

 

[cool_r2i]

That's a common misconception. India does allow dual CITIZENSHIP for minors, but not dual PASSPORTS. These children only will lose Indian citizenship if they get a US passport. That's probably because other countries like the UK don't make their passport mandatory for their dual citizens.

But the US does make both its passport and its citizenship mandatory for US-born children. That possibility was probably overlooked by the authors of the Indian rules. So, the issue really is to correct this oversight, not create something radically new.

Hope this clarifies,

Tamtom

Even though it sounds like oversight, it does not get resolved unless something radically new is adopted. The only way to resolve this from India Side (since we are talking about oversight of authors of Indian rules) is to allow dual PASSPORT.

Otherwise, it has to be corrected from US side, allowing children to travel to/from the US without US passport.

 

[tamtom]

Even though it sounds like oversight, it does not get resolved unless something radically new is adopted. The only way to resolve this from India Side (since we are talking about oversight of authors of Indian rules) is to allow dual PASSPORT.

Otherwise, it has to be corrected from US side, allowing children to travel to/from the US without US passport.

If you read the earlier discussion in this thread by leonidas666, you would realize that actually the rule against dual passports from the Indian side isn't even in law. Technically, the rule is one loses Indian citizenship when "voluntarily acquiring" a foreign citizenship, and a foreign passport is evidence of that. But such a conclusion is hard to sustain where the other country makes its passport mandatory.

On the US side, although the passport is mandatory, there are a number of waiver possibilities within existing regulations.

In short, if the two countries decide to fix the problem, there are technically easy ways for them to do so while both remaining largely within the frameworks of their existing laws. The main thing blocking progress is they don't yet perceive that it's important to fix the problem.

--Tamtom

 

[havfun]

Registration of overseas citizens of India - Would this work?

Was just wondering if we obtain citizenship for the child as under section 5(1) (d) which states

"Minor children whose both parents are Indian citizens under section 5(1)(d). Application shall be made by his parents in Form-III"

Would this not work? Are there any legal implications to this?

I am in a similiar situation as yours with my child to be expected in few days / Weeks time and I am in the same predicament as yours.

The only question that bothers me when reading all this that if I have to travel at any time to US I would have to take a US passport.


Any suggestions?

 

[tamtom]

Was just wondering if we obtain citizenship for the child as under section 5(1) (d) which states

"Minor children whose both parents are Indian citizens under section 5(1)(d). Application shall be made by his parents in Form-III"

Would this not work? Are there any legal implications to this?

I am in a similiar situation as yours with my child to be expected in few days / Weeks time and I am in the same predicament as yours.

The only question that bothers me when reading all this that if I have to travel at any time to US I would have to take a US passport.


Any suggestions?

It's clear that the child is eligible for Indian citizenship at birth. That's not a problem.

It's also true that the US has not been actively objecting when the child travels from the US to India using only an Indian passport.

So, your last statement is the open problem. If you travel to the US, the US expects the child to get a US passport. If you take it, then India cancels the Indian passport and starts treating the child as a foreign citizen. Avoiding that is a serious hassle.

Just how serious the hassle is, I will describe in another post soon.

--Tamtom

 

[fusman]

After 4 years this forum still rock!

As I logged in right now I noticed that my last login was 19th March 2003!

And here I am in the same situation as tamtom. My daughter was born 2 months ago and as I was getting ready to apply for her Indian passport realized I didnt know how to go about getting her a green card to travel to and from the US. And hence the search to find information brought me here - and now the reality hits me!

Tamtom - admire your resolve on this!

Have you returned to the US yet - and what did you do?