Indian citizen baby born in US - have others had this situation?

[hipka]

Hi,
i just set up a website at
http://www.indian-dual-citizenship.com/
As you have seen from my previous posts, i take a rather proactive course to this issue. The website is more of a test to see how many people share my view
The website is still a bit rough, comments are appreciated though.

Good job but full dual citizenship(also called dual nationality) may not be very desirable either. One big problem with this is when you get into trouble in either country of citizenship. I explained previously that with currently OCI gets US consular access but this is simply impossible with full dual citizenship. Another problem is when you travel to a thrid country, you'll have to deal with a host of questions as you have two passports. Also you should be extra careful not to violate laws of either country (ex. you cannot travel to cuba if you have a US passport but you can if you have an indian passport). If you get into trouble in a third country neither of your host countries may be able to bail you out.
Besides this there are several legal issues you could wind up with if you take up full dual citizenship, that is the reason the US state department does not encourage dual citizenship although US laws permit it.

 

[tamtom]

Tamtom,
I see your concern and the need to have full dual citizenship. However she can always renounce her US citizenship and obtain full indian ctiz. if she lives in india for 5 years. After that it won't be easy to change laws and send her away. So what is the problem here, all she needs to do is choose where she is going to live and get that countries citizenship.

hipka,

Thanks, but the problem with that is the US says she is too young to renounce her US citizenship, as I pointed out earlier in the thread.

--Tamtom

 

[vispambegone]

Exit US on India Passport and India on US Passport??

4. Exit on the Indian passport preferably; that way entry into India is easy.

5. If not possible then exit on US passport. However, I do not think anybody checks too much when you exit US. If the baby has Indian passport, then they may not check his place of birth on the passport. I have left the US on Indian passport on a number of occassions and the airline staff only glances at the Passport at the time of issuance of boarding pass.

Can we expand on this a bit ? But if necessary, I can start another thread?
OK...this may be a taboo discusssion but I'm sure its on the mind of
many -

If someone is holding a US Passport and Indian Passport simultaneously
(yes, I know he/she should giveup Indian passport but just stick with
me for the discussion....) - can they -

1. Apply for a Visa to India without any problems ? Has anyone done it
here?

2. Travel to India and back to the US without any problems?
- ie show Indian passport when leaving US, then show US passport when
leaving India
- The concern would be the authorities in India looking for a US Visa
in the Indian passport - but is this done by the airline or by other
Indian authorities?

3. Travel to a India and then to a third country(which does not require
visa for US passport holders) and then back to US?

4. What if the application for OIC is in process while the person wants
to travel to India and back?

Any experiences or anecdotes to reveal?
Thanks
VI

 

[hipka]

Can we expand on this a bit ? But if necessary, I can start another thread?
OK...this may be a taboo discusssion but I'm sure its on the mind of
many -

If someone is holding a US Passport and Indian Passport simultaneously
(yes, I know he/she should giveup Indian passport but just stick with
me for the discussion....) - can they -

1. Apply for a Visa to India without any problems ? Has anyone done it
here?

2. Travel to India and back to the US without any problems?
- ie show Indian passport when leaving US, then show US passport when
leaving India
- The concern would be the authorities in India looking for a US Visa
in the Indian passport - but is this done by the airline or by other
Indian authorities?

3. Travel to a India and then to a third country(which does not require
visa for US passport holders) and then back to US?

4. What if the application for OIC is in process while the person wants
to travel to India and back?

Any experiences or anecdotes to reveal?
Thanks
VI

Well, your idea is bound to fail as port authorities keep a record on which passport you entered and which passport you exited. When they don't match you are likely to be arrested at your first point itself, i.e. when trying to leave india ( remember you entered as an India citizen but trying to exit as a US citizen)

 

[VA_CH]

Indian citizenship

How important it is depends on the relations between the two countries. For example, the US and China do have a consular convention which allows persons which both countries claim as their citizens, to leave the US on their Chinese passports.

As for the kid making her choice at 18, that argues for preserving her Indian citizenship. If we give it up for her now, and she wants it back at 18, the choice will be in the hands of the Indian government.

--Tamtom

Why do you care about Indian citizenship at this stage. As a OCI your child might not be able to vote or hold constitutional position but wait again, you cannot vote till you are 18yrs and for the lower house you have to be 25yrs to be eligible to hold office.
When you child turns 18, she can always take up Indian citizenship giveing up the US one.

 

[vispambegone]

Travel to/from India on US Passport with Indian Visa..

If someone is holding a US Passport and Indian Passport simultaneously
(yes, I know he/she should giveup Indian passport but just stick with
me for the discussion....) - can they -

1. Apply for a Visa to India without any problems ? Has anyone done it
here?

4. What if the application for OIC is in process while the person wants
to travel to India and back?

I modified this slightly based on some information I received locally. What if:
after 1. above.
2. Travel to India and back on US passport with Indian Visa ? The US passport shows that the place of birth of the holder is India - will this cause problems? It should'nt because there is no other information on the US passport.

3. The only anecdotal problem I have read on the internet is that if the holder later applies for a OCI or PIO and it is shown that the person travelled to India on a Indian Visa with a foreign passport, there is a fine of $1000!

As to the comment that port authorities record entry and exit and thus one will get arrested !!! Wow !! - well, then if one travels to and from India on a US passport, the problem does not exist! There is no way Indian port authorities can cross check for the name in a Indian Passport database.

Again, this is all pure speculation and "my friend" is probably going to get a PIO or OIC but i now know many people locally who are travelling to India and back on a US passport with an Indian Visa while holding on to the Indian passport for an "eventuality" - justy incase the OIC rules are changed again...

VI

 

[hipka]

I modified this slightly based on some information I received locally. What if:
after 1. above.
2. Travel to India and back on US passport with Indian Visa ? The US passport shows that the place of birth of the holder is India - will this cause problems? It should'nt because there is no other information on the US passport.

3. The only anecdotal problem I have read on the internet is that if the holder later applies for a OCI or PIO and it is shown that the person travelled to India on a Indian Visa with a foreign passport, there is a fine of $1000!

As to the comment that port authorities record entry and exit and thus one will get arrested !!! Wow !! - well, then if one travels to and from India on a US passport, the problem does not exist! There is no way Indian port authorities can cross check for the name in a Indian Passport database.

Again, this is all pure speculation and "my friend" is probably going to get a PIO or OIC but i now know many people locally who are travelling to India and back on a US passport with an Indian Visa while holding on to the Indian passport for an "eventuality" - justy incase the OIC rules are changed again...

VI

Once you get a US passport you need to get rid of your indian passport and this fact is stated on every indian passport.
About port authorities being able to cross check, it is a very simple procedure. Each time you enter on a foreign passport it is stamped with magnetic ink that you have entered the country. Lets say you enter on US passport, it gets stamped. Now you try to leave india to the US, your indian passport gets stamped stating you left the country. Now, when you try to enter the US with a US pp, your US pp does not have the exit stamp. So your idea of switching passports is not possible.

 

[vispambegone]

US Passport w/Indian Visa??

Once you get a US passport you need to get rid of your indian passport and this fact is stated on every indian passport.
About port authorities being able to cross check, it is a very simple procedure. Each time you enter on a foreign passport it is stamped with magnetic ink that you have entered the country. Lets say you enter on US passport, it gets stamped. Now you try to leave india to the US, your indian passport gets stamped stating you left the country. Now, when you try to enter the US with a US pp, your US pp does not have the exit stamp. So your idea of switching passports is not possible.

Yes, yes, I get that but please read my modified post --- what if he travels with an US passport and Indian Visa - the Indian passport is not in the picture - can the Indian authorities stop travel just because he has not returned his Indian Passport - can they crosscheck that?
AM

 

[AGC4ME]

Yes, yes, I get that but please read my modified post --- what if he travels with an US passport and Indian Visa - the Indian passport is not in the picture - can the Indian authorities stop travel just because he has not returned his Indian Passport - can they crosscheck that?
AM

By maintaining both the passports you are committing a crime according to Indian passport laws. Now try again.

 

[hipka]

Yes, yes, I get that but please read my modified post --- what if he travels with an US passport and Indian Visa - the Indian passport is not in the picture - can the Indian authorities stop travel just because he has not returned his Indian Passport - can they crosscheck that?
AM

That is more difficult to detect as there is no connection between US passport database and indian passport database, but simply keeping your indian passport will get you into trouble at two places.
1) This is a violation of indian passport laws as you need to cancel your IP after you get USPP
2) You may be asked a question -- 'do you carry/have you used another passport', if you answer yes -- you are in trouble as your IP is invalid, if you answer no you are in trouble as have lied.
So either way this is not a good idea.

 

[bigboy00]

Yes, yes, I get that but please read my modified post --- what if he travels with an US passport and Indian Visa - the Indian passport is not in the picture - can the Indian authorities stop travel just because he has not returned his Indian Passport - can they crosscheck that?
AM

Your friend must be in posession of a cancelled indian PP. Because when you apply for the Indian visa for the first time, they ask for your Indian PP, cancel it and then return it to you (with the Indian visa). Therefore, there is no question of "surrendering" your Indian passport.

 

[vispambegone]

Oh give me a break!!

There is no "crime" - unless you use the Indian passport to travel to India - even then - there is no "crime" - its a violation - apparently there is a penalty of $1000 (Rs 50,000).

Many people I Know have just turned in their Indian passports the first time they went for an Indian Visa on the US passport - the Indian consulate just took it and then issued an Indian Visa, PIO and OIC - stop this fear-mongering - as if the Indian SWAT team was going to break into your home and take you to an unknown location for not turning in the Indian passport.

Instead of fear-mongering just give the facts - the OIC and PIO cards are so much in flux, its impossible to say what the rules will be 10 years from now.
AM

 

[vispambegone]

other possibilities...

Your friend must be in posession of a cancelled indian PP. Because when you apply for the Indian visa for the first time, they ask for your Indian PP, cancel it and then return it to you (with the Indian visa). Therefore, there is no question of "surrendering" your Indian passport.

You seem to miss out the many possibilities - the person may be born in India but may never have possesed an Indian passport - say moved to the US when he/she was a child - so the consulate cannot just refuse him/her a visa!!

Even if the person was born in India and had an Indian passport - unless the place where he/she is applying for an INdian visa is also the place where the person had got his Indian passport, the chances or the the availability of a electronic database to cross-connect even the same name (do you know how many Sanjay Guptas or Hari Krishnans etc are there in India?) is remote. I know for a fact that until recently (until the PIO and OIC cards were available), the Indian consulate here did not ask for an Indian passport even if the person was born in India.

The other possibility you missed out in the hurry to prove everyone wrong is that he person may have been born outside India but to Indian parents - so got an Indian passport in India. Again the passport databases in India were not so sophisticated - infact I also know a cousin of mine who held two Indian passports - clearly illegal - but he could because he could get it India pretty easily. He gave one up later but he could...

There are many Indians even today who are holding both Indian and US passports and travelling regularly between the US and India - perhaps a violation - but please dont say its not possible.

VI

 

[AGC4ME]

There is no "crime" - unless you use the Indian passport to travel to India - even then - there is no "crime" - its a violation - apparently there is a penalty of $1000 (Rs 50,000).

Many people I Know have just turned in their Indian passports the first time they went for an Indian Visa on the US passport - the Indian consulate just took it and then issued an Indian Visa, PIO and OIC - stop this fear-mongering - as if the Indian SWAT team was going to break into your home and take you to an unknown location for not turning in the Indian passport.

Instead of fear-mongering just give the facts - the OIC and PIO cards are so much in flux, its impossible to say what the rules will be 10 years from now.
AM

Why is following the law not an option for you ?

 

[tamtom]

All,

Please let's not lose sight of the original point of this thread. I'm not talking about people trying to keep extra secret passports. I'm talking about children who are born with Indian citizenship plus another one, and who are having trouble traveling while complying with the one-passport rule.

There are legitimate reasons a child can be in this situation. What if an Indian citizen family is in the US on business for two years, and happen to have a child during this time?

Or what about an Indian citizen married to a US citizen? If they have a child, even if it is born in India, it still automatically becomes a US citizen.

Now because the child is automatically a US citizen, it becomes very difficult to make a trip to the US without getting the child a US passport. If the parents choose Indian citizenship for their child, the child is effectively banned from travel to the US. This is a very serious problem, and a very serious anomaly between countries that have an important relationship such as India and the US.

There've been lots of posts like "isn't OCI good enough." Note that it was recently ruled that OCI for minors is only available if one of the parents has OCI, so it isn't possible in the situations described above.

And what about this recent huge fiasco about OCI? Indian consulates told Indian citizen parents that their kids could get OCI, so the parents got US passports for the kids but now it turns out they can't get OCI. Those children have lost Indian citizenship (even overseas citizenship) possibly for the next 18 years. Is anyone going to do anything for these children? If not, how would that affect the public's trust level about long-term visas versus citizenship?

Again, we're hoping to hear from other parents in this situation and concerned to keep Indian citizenship for their child. Please post here or send a private message or email via my profile if you are concerned about this.

--Tamtom

 

[AGC4ME]

OCI is not for Minors

Okay it seems that if the children have parents who are IC then the children will not be granted OCI.

This is taken from SFO India Consulate website

6. Are minor children whose both parents are Indian citizens eligible for OCI?

No.

tomtom, in your case sine one of the parent is USC you are eligible but in most of the cases the Child cannot take OCI. I think the only option is PIO.

 

[tamtom]

tomtom, in your case sine one of the parent is USC you are eligible but in most of the cases the Child cannot take OCI. I think the only option is PIO.

Thanks for this advice, but the USC parent is NOT of Indian descent so cannot get OCI, and thus neither can the child.

--Tamtom

 

[tamtom]

Any experience with Canadian-born Indian children?

I got an email the other day from a member of the forum who's an Indian citizen with a baby born in Canada.

The Indian consulate in Canada told him he could not get a passport for the baby, because "they do not give passports to Canadian-born children".

I also checked the websites of Canadian consulates, and they do not publish the forms for passport for foreign-born child of Indian citizen, nor do they publish the form for birth certificate for foreign-born child of Indian citizen.

What's going on in Canada? Do the Indian consulates there not know the law that says child born abroad to Indian citizen parents can choose Indian citizenship?

Anyone who's an Indian citizen with a Canadian-born child and who tried to get the child an Indian passport, I'd like to hear your experiences. You can post here or send me a private message or email via the link to my profile.

--Tamtom

 

[tamtom]

Following up on the Canadian issue, here's what I see on the websites of Indian consulates in Canada.

Ottawa:
http://www.hciottawa.ca/passports-0509.pdf
"New passport for a child" - so it looks like they do give passports to Canadian-born children.

Vancouver:
http://www.cgivancouver.com/passreg.html#Passport_for_children
"...children with at least one parent being an Indian citizen are entitled to Indian citizenship and an Indian passport" - so it looks like they do give passports to Canadian-born children.

Toronto:
http://www.cgitoronto.ca/Passportservices/passportservices.htm
There is only "Passport for children on expiry of the existing one" but not "New passport for a child" - so it is not clear whether they give passports to Canadian-born children.

Does anyone have experience applying for an Indian passport for a child of Indian parents born in Canada? In particular, does anyone have experience doing that in the Toronto consulate?

--Tamtom

 

[rogerkint]

any developments on this front?

The Central Government may, on an application, register as a citizen of India under section 5 of the Citizenship Act 1955 any person (not being an illegal migrant) if he belongs to any of the following categories:

(f) a person of full age and capacity who, or either of his parents, was earlier citizen of independent India, and has been residing in India for one year immediately before making an application for registration

So, if US citizenship attaches to a person by virtue of birth and this is something parents cannot renounce for a minor child - the child should be able to regain Indian citizenship (so to speak) when he/she turns 18. This is not an ideal solution, I guess.