After the Aug Bull....Is still Ameriaca the Best

[eddie_d]

Everyone has a friend who did this or that. I'm talking about "in general". There are always exeption to the rule. I have worked for a few big tech companies and 90% of the Indian workers I met were mid-level average employees who were replacable at a drop of a hat.

If all Indians H1Bs were in the position you claim, then they would have employers begging for them in this supposed environment of shortages. Yet I read here over and over how most people are stuck in a job they hate. How do you explain the contradiction?

I am not trolling you moron, just because I don't agree with you. Are you so insecure that you're not willing to entertain a different point of view? Jeez.

Eddie_d,

I work for a big tech company. My ex-boss said informally several times that his foreign employees made more money than his American ones. If the foreigners were let go that would be the end of the company. I am not kidding.

I have a bunch of friends from India here. Trust me, none of them are the "never complain, never ask for anything" types that you posit. Most of them make well in the 6 figure range. Even if they are in industries that don't pay high salaries, they are driven and have much responsibility.

And if you are an employer who treats his H1B employee unfairly thinking that he/she is an indentured servant based on the green card petition, if that employee is any good at all, they will walk out on you 6 months after the GC is approved. You have just lost a good proved-in employee and will likely need to take a chance on someone new. Ask any good first-line manager if they would trade in a good proved-in employee for a new hire and see what they say.

So if you want to troll, go right ahead and you will get several people to bite and argue with you, but realize that you are posting generalizations galore. You are likely working off a skewed sample if you are generalizing on responses in this thread.

 

[techy2468]

eddie_d ...can you atleast see that you are talking from that side of the fence which says i have it......i guess thats how this world works....the ones that have it wants to protect it for themselves...and the ones dont have it think they deserve a shot at it.

if that is the case why blame the business/corporate if one day....80% of IT jobs will be outsourced......when the american unemployment may reach 8-10% and american gov will have start thinking about closed economy..

 

[posmd]

Come on indian_gc, you know the answer to your own question. It is the same reason businesses are all for illegal immigrants, so they can get away with paying less for workers.

You hear the pro-illegal crowd say over and over that without illegals, fruit wouldn't be picked, hotel rooms wouldn't be cleaned, dishes wouldn't be washed at restaurants etc. That is a load of crap. At $6 an hour none of that will happen without illegals. But pay an American $12 and you'll find plenty willing to do the work.

Moving up the food chain some, you get to programmers. Let's look at the option for an employer:

a) Hire an American who can leave at any time for a better offer and who will demand top dollar

or

b) hire an H1B at a lower salary, who you know wll probably never leave, never complain, never ask for anything

Tough choice indeed for the employer indeed. Obviously this isn't the case in 100% of H1Bs, but it is the norm, is it not?

eddie_d,

Hence my point that it is unfair to some, thats why I said the US is asking a dinosaur immigration system to perform like a ballerina.
Hence the need for a points based system which can be changed according to labour market needs at short notice. I do not think that anyone here feels the US has some obligation to harm its citizens to help immigrants.

You on the other hand are working in generalisations and those seldom pertain in life. Certainly not in this case.

The other point we are all making to you is in this era of globalisation, service jobs prone to data transfer are vulnerable, it is a simple fact. This is an achilles heel of that field in terms of salary/work conditions etc.This is why in years to come I will bet you that a Nurse(whose job can't be outsourced) will make more money and have better working conditions than IT professionals. These are the evolving realities of globalisation. Inward immigration is the smallest of your worries! Furthermore putting hundreds of thousands of people in H1b/green card pending limbo is the real weapon of employers here. Do you realise that? The US unions certainly do, this is the way the the H1b program is being used.

 

[saras76]

Outsourcing ...

Not all jobs are outsourceable. Those non outsourceable jobs are jobs citizens of any country should fight to protect. That is natural. Simply applying the idea that it is about competition and open the Gates of India to let all poeple there come here doesn't seem realistic nor positive to America.

GCdreamer2006,

I am not stating that outsourcing is great for America or that America should open its gates to millions. I am stating that people in the states are harping about outsourcing and immigration influx without analyzing the true reasons for the movement of jobs. Clamping down on immigration will not bring back any jobs or prevent jobs from moving ofshore.

regards,

saras

 

[stucklabor]

Everyone has a friend who did this or that. I'm talking about "in general". There are always exeption to the rule. I have worked for a few big tech companies and 90% of the Indian workers I met were mid-level average employees who were replacable at a drop of a hat.

If all Indians H1Bs were in the position you claim, then they would have employers begging for them in this supposed environment of shortages. Yet I read here over and over how most people are stuck in a job they hate. How do you explain the contradiction?

I am not trolling you moron, just because I don't agree with you. Are you so insecure that you're not willing to entertain a different point of view? Jeez.

I am talking about myself and 10 of my friends from my hometown. Not one of us is replaceable at the drop of a hat. My friend who is leaving his job gave 6 months notice and his company is grateful for that. I am talking about my company; I look at people in their early and mid-30s, not one American among the up and coming. This is not an IT company. We are nowhere near H1B-dependent, but if it weren't for the H1B population from India and China, we would have capitulated to Silicon Valley a long time back.

Keep generalizing off 5 people on an Internet forum and the few people you met in those tech companies you worked for. You said it yourself: 'I keep reading here over and over that people hate their job'. You aren't going to win any genius prizes anytime soon.

 

[eddie_d]

You appear to be the one that is insecure. I am talking about myself and my friends here, 15 people at least. Trust me, not one of us is replaceable at the drop of a hat. My friend who is leaving his job gave 6 months notice and his company is grateful for that.

BTW, the middle finger to you too, Eddie_d. Keep trolling and generalizing off 5 people on an Internet forum. You said it yourself: 'I keep reading here over and over that people hate their job'. You aren't going to win any genius prizes anytime soon.

Are you 12 years old? Jesus I have not seen such childish behvior in a long time.

I have known more Indian H1Bs than you could count, worked with them and supervised many of them them throughout many years at many companies in many industries. IN GENERAL they have all shared common traits in that they are below average with respect to their abilities to come up with creative thoughts, given a set of tasks will perform them well but need to be guided at every step along the way, almost all of them lie on their resumes, most are unhappy, mad at the world like you always bitching about something. But they are also cheap as s**t and so are tolerated by their employers. That is the fact of life for H1Bs.

If you work at some magical company where this isn't the case, good for you. You're the expetion that proves the rule.

 

[stucklabor]

I may behave like I am 12 years old, but I know how to spell 'behvior' and 'expetion' like an adult.

If you had personally met hundreds of H1Bs and judged them all to be below average, my sympathies would be with you normally, that you had to deal with a bunch of below average people. Since you assert illogically that your experience proves the rule and someone else's equally valid experience is the exception, my sympathies instead to everyone that has to deal with you on a daily basis.

Nice going by the way, of visiting a web site and saying that in your judgment most of the posting population is below average and uncreative. Moderation was intended for people like you. Go back to the hole you came from, like a nice troll. And if you must post again, do run your rants through a spell checker.

 

[GreenCardVirus]

Are you 12 years old? Jesus I have not seen such childish behvior in a long time.

I have known more Indian H1Bs than you could count, worked with them and supervised many of them them throughout many years at many companies in many industries. IN GENERAL they have all shared common traits in that they are below average with respect to their abilities to come up with creative thoughts, given a set of tasks will perform them well but need to be guided at every step along the way, almost all of them lie on their resumes, most are unhappy, mad at the world like you always bitching about something. But they are also cheap as s**t and so are tolerated by their employers. That is the fact of life for H1Bs.

If you work at some magical company where this isn't the case, good for you. You're the expetion that proves the rule.

Wow!! You supervised many?? What companies by the way?? Your language says you are lying thru your teeth.

By the way, how much is 84*80? Go find for a calculator.

 

[GreenCardVirus]

if you take GC out of the picture, the quality will decline because the good people will not like to live this temp life in usa.....

Leave GC, without the ability to work here (H1 or other), what idiot will want to come and study in American Universities? Without all those Chinese and Indians, half the universities will have to shutdown their PG programs.

With lot of restrictions on visas, American technological advantage has eroded past few years. America thrives on the ability to lure the best minds of the world.

 

[guldukan]

Are you 12 years old? Jesus I have not seen such childish behvior in a long time.

I have known more Indian H1Bs than you could count, worked with them and supervised many of them them throughout many years at many companies in many industries. IN GENERAL they have all shared common traits in that they are below average with respect to their abilities to come up with creative thoughts, given a set of tasks will perform them well but need to be guided at every step along the way, almost all of them lie on their resumes, most are unhappy, mad at the world like you always bitching about something. But they are also cheap as s**t and so are tolerated by their employers. That is the fact of life for H1Bs.

If you work at some magical company where this isn't the case, good for you. You're the expetion that proves the rule.

Eddie, dude I hear you and I am one of those H1Bs but guess what I work at a technology company where you get paid to be creative and productive but for a short period of time I had to work with a insurance company (our client) on site, during that period I was amazed to find many H1B was not even able to communicate properly. I also realized the jobs they were doing really did not required any creativity, you really don't need a Einstain to design couple of html pages

but, what makes you different it appears you also worked with them, that does'nt make it any better, does it, you are'nt building any rockets, do you?, if not chill out man and go and get a real job where you will again find many talented Indians,

on lighter note, face it man, if you are in IT you just can't escape Indians

 

[techy2468]

i am glad eddie_d found some average H1b indians, atleat that proves that i am a notch above averaga.........why??........i am here in birmingham,AL and all i can see is average americans around me........not that i have not met better people but they are exceptions....as though all the good IT people have shifted to Atlanta or a bigger city.

eddie_d indians may not be great in communication (be glad that english is not our mother tongue......otherwise you all may have never have an edge because of your glib)

anyway guys.....i am also falling into this trap of generalising.......and stereotyping...

i dont beleive that americans or dumb or smart or indians/chinese are extra smart...

but if you look at statastics you will know the truth........what is the population of usa.....300 mil......so what is the probability of smart people....who are good in science/math/analytical skills.........around 40%........how much is that now....120mil......how many of these lose their way in life because they have other options than going to college.....atleast 40% of them....that leave us with around 50mil who make it to the professional work fore...

and lets take example of india/china....each country population around 1 billion.....even if 30% are good in science/math/analytical skills.....that give us 300 mil.....even if 50% of these make it to college...it still leaves us with 150 mil....

this is the reason why there are so many indians and chinese floating around in IT/Sceince professions.....

eddie_d when you say you met avg people......why did you not fire them??, dont you think you need avg people for avg jobs???

stucklabor: please stop commenting on spelling.....this is a forum where we just like to sh** as fast as possible.....and spelling and grammer....is not important if one can understand the meaning...

anyways guys i feel this forum is now a big time pass (since i am just waiting twiddling my thumb for my PD to become current....which will take around 7-8 years)..

because it does not matter how smart we are .... the fact is that....USA immigration system is broke....and they wont fix it since they are busy with survival tactics(votes).......we are unlucky to be paying the price.....and it does not matter if we are good...

on that note....if we were really good.........could we not have earned around a million dollars and got an investors GC...........or could we not have invented/discovered something great and got an EB1 or NIW GC.....

or if we were so great would we not have gone back to our home country and made it better???

we are all average people......who want to live a easy life......and there is nothing wrong with it........but its just our fate...

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

Are you 12 years old? Jesus I have not seen such childish behvior in a long time.

I have known more Indian H1Bs than you could count, worked with them and supervised many of them them throughout many years at many companies in many industries. IN GENERAL they have all shared common traits in that they are below average with respect to their abilities to come up with creative thoughts, given a set of tasks will perform them well but need to be guided at every step along the way, almost all of them lie on their resumes, most are unhappy, mad at the world like you always bitching about something. But they are also cheap as s**t and so are tolerated by their employers. That is the fact of life for H1Bs.

If you work at some magical company where this isn't the case, good for you. You're the expetion that proves the rule.

eddie_d,

First let me first apologize for some personal remarks made by some members in the discussion.

1. There are some people whose main goal was to be in the US, do any job and passtime forever; no great goals.
2. There are some others who take up a job and try do their best until they are in that job but look for better once they have a GC.
3. Some more, constantly looking for challenging jobs in a hope that this will help their career once thay have GC.

Well, looks like you have seen only the first category more. Its not your fault because they are more now a days. I also wonder whether these people will come to these forums because they usually of the attitude "what am I going to do after getting a GC, the same job, don't care if there is no growth". But don't worry outsourcing will eventually take care of them.

I am afraid that you are addressing other two categories here in these forums based on your experience with people category 1.

 

[blingdling]

This discussion is really interesting. I like it. I especially like techy's point of view that this forum is a very good timepass - er, in correct english - passtime. I like it that there is someone on the other side of the fence (Eddie - canadian - do-not-care-for-gc) who is actually taking up arms against indians (f*** me for stereotyping). All in all, it is a really good diversion from all real issues. Make me wanna come back for more. And I see some people (indian_gc_ocean) taking almost a political leadership stance ("First let me first apologize for some personal remarks made by some members in the discussion.") for the "masses". Thats the stupidest (if you pardon my english).


And now, just my two cents. I believe that there is no better place in the world for a person who has the drive than US of A. Personally, I would want to settle in Australia. Just because there is so much unclaimed land & ocean there. In other words, due to low population density. To hell with IT or any other job .

Cheers

 

[samyami]

eddie_d,
Evrey single statement you have said applies to the a sample of workers from any country whether working in their own countries or elsewhere.
Lack of creativity - are all non-foreigh workers of every organization creative, or rather, is the difference in creativity between the two groups statistically significant?Oh, or were you talking about THAT company where while the rest of the high calibre pillars of the industry were composing canorous cantatas with the one hand, painting post-modern surrealist masterpieces with the other, and using that normally underutilized deep valley between the right and left lobes to design software that solves the twin banes of world poverty and sectarianism; the foreign workers were being whipped by the janitors and trash collectors into meeting their programming deliverables. How could I have overlooked that!
Underpaid - Now it all begins to make sense - those big stupid job postings in the breakroom listing the cheap foreign worker's salary, title and responsibilities must be what draws the sympathetic looks on the faces of his native-born colleagues - oh, no, not colleagues, superiors. Little do these sympathisers know that the company has 2 different pay scales - one for the poor li'l cheap suckers and the other for the glorious rest. I really didnt know that's the way the IBMs, Microsofts, Oracles, Ciscos and Googles of the world operate - but yeah, okay?
Work only when guided and supervised - drat - why didn't I think of that before! Next time, I am going to hand even my foreign direct reports the six-shooter in a holster and a belt decked with the finest bullets and let them totally give it to 'em tasks right from the hip. Too bad of me that I only trusted the other workers to be able to handle the colt well enough in the past. Geez - will you please just listen to yourself - if you were managing these people, wouldn't have had some say in hiring them in the first place? Wouldn't your judgement have weighed in a wee bit in the whole process? Have you really found that much of a difference in the general distribution of these qualities between the peoples of the world? And if so, what are you saying - H1 workers bad, and who good? I mean, I didn't quite get your comparisons - are you saying Indians bad, Americans good? (and by America, are you are talking about continental America including Canada?) Or just h1 workers bad, non-h1 good?

And if you really do manage people, I suggest you take organizational behavior 101 for the benefit of all parties concerned (included yourself) - you will learn about mundane matters such as stereotyping, and things like the role of a leader at suchlike.

Are you 12 years old? Jesus I have not seen such childish behvior in a long time.

I have known more Indian H1Bs than you could count, worked with them and supervised many of them them throughout many years at many companies in many industries. IN GENERAL they have all shared common traits in that they are below average with respect to their abilities to come up with creative thoughts, given a set of tasks will perform them well but need to be guided at every step along the way, almost all of them lie on their resumes, most are unhappy, mad at the world like you always bitching about something. But they are also cheap as s**t and so are tolerated by their employers. That is the fact of life for H1Bs.

If you work at some magical company where this isn't the case, good for you. You're the expetion that proves the rule.

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

This discussion is really interesting. I like it. I especially like techy's point of view that this forum is a very good timepass - er, in correct english - passtime. I like it that there is someone on the other side of the fence (Eddie - canadian - do-not-care-for-gc) who is actually taking up arms against indians (f*** me for stereotyping). All in all, it is a really good diversion from all real issues. Make me wanna come back for more. And I see some people (indian_gc_ocean) taking almost a political leadership stance ("First let me first apologize for some personal remarks made by some members in the discussion.") for the "masses". Thats the stupidest (if you pardon my english).


And now, just my two cents. I believe that there is no better place in the world for a person who has the drive than US of A. Personally, I would want to settle in Australia. Just because there is so much unclaimed land & ocean there. In other words, due to low population density. To hell with IT or any other job .

Cheers

no political leadership stance. i just felt bad that some personal remarks were made. thats all. there are better people than me here like saras, posmd, techy. I wanted to make eddie_d be in the discussion that all.

 

[techy2468]

samyami.....you do talk some good english sh** ....it took me a while to go through your post...

btw if you dont mind can i ask about your profession?, i hope you are not a professor or a sales person...

 

[blingdling]

samyami is full of crap. He is sidelining the issues eddie brought up and is shooting from the hip.

By the way, this particular thread has quite a bit of bad language... is there any award for that distinction? Maybe like an immediate I485 approval for the most foul mouthed thread! ah ha!

 

[eddie_d]

Ouch looks like I hit a nerve here boys and girls.

To answer some questions:

Yes I have had Indians work for me on IT projects.

Yes I realize you can't get rid of Inidans in IT, never said otherwise. I just wish the liars would go away.

I am not taking up arms against Indians, just trying to put things in perspective for everyone here who is obviously living in an echo chamber and has no clue what the real world is about.

Techy, yes there were some that I fired. One example in particular comes to mind. We brought in 4 developers on an L1 visa who judging by their resume pratically invented the application we hired them to work on. Two days into it we realized that they had no clue and everything they said they knew was a lie. By Thursday of that week they were gone. Who replaced them? A couple of recent college grads...Americans.

I interviewed one Indian who on his resume said had worked at company XYZ between 2001 and 2002 which for some reason struck me as odd since this company was about 75 miles from where he lived. I asked him a simple question, the address of the office building - something you'd think you'd know if you worked there for a year. Had no idea.

I hired 2 of them to write some Crystal reports. Again on their resumes, they were stellar report writers. Took them 6 weeks to crank out 10 reports since they simply could not understand what the requirements were. I practically held their hand the entire time telling them step by step what to do, it was a nightmare.

Why do you bring up outsourcing at every turn? Yes outsourcing is happening and will continue to grow. But why do you all take such joy at that? If there are no more jobs left here, do you think your prospects for staying here will improve or get worse? You're so angry at Americans that you're willing to cut off your nose to spite your face.

 

[blingdling]

Ouch looks like I hit a nerve here boys and girls.

To answer some questions:

Yes I have had Indians work for me on IT projects.

Yes I realize you can't get rid of Inidans in IT, never said otherwise. I just wish the liars would go away.

I am not taking up arms against Indians, just trying to put things in perspective for everyone here who is obviously living in an echo chamber and has no clue what the real world is about.

Techy, yes there were some that I fired. One example in particular comes to mind. We brought in 4 developers on an L1 visa who judging by their resume pratically invented the application we hired them to work on. Two days into it we realized that they had no clue and everything they said they knew was a lie. By Thursday of that week they were gone. Who replaced them? A couple of recent college grads...Americans.

I interviewed one Indian who on his resume said had worked at company XYZ between 2001 and 2002 which for some reason struck me as odd since this company was about 75 miles from where he lived. I asked him a simple question, the address of the office building - something you'd think you'd know if you worked there for a year. Had no idea.

I hired 2 of them to write some Crystal reports. Again on their resumes, they were stellar report writers. Took them 6 weeks to crank out 10 reports since they simply could not understand what the requirements were. I practically held their hand the entire time telling them step by step what to do, it was a nightmare.

Why do you bring up outsourcing at every turn? Yes outsourcing is happening and will continue to grow. But why do you all take such joy at that? If there are no more jobs left here, do you think your prospects for staying here will improve or get worse? You're so angry at Americans that you're willing to cut off your nose to spite your face.

Hey! I agree that many folks from yonder attempt to bolster their resume with false info. Is it not akin to how McDonalds sells their french fries? And besides that point, what really counts is that a majority of IT supply/demand these days is commoditised. Ya buy in bulk and ya sell in bulk. So, the risk of lying on the resume for a few dollars more (or for landing that job at all) is worth the taking. I guess one can call "Indians" as leaders in the commodity IT business (they sure are). I know for sure that even the highly respectable IT vendors ($1 billion + on revenues) knowingly lie on their employee resumes when they ship them to their clients. But thats how it works. But again, thats besides the point altogether. (Is it not?). I guess Eddie has a good point. One needs to get out of an echo chamber. Sometimes, when I am down in the dumps, I feel good to come to this forum and read about the countless other losers like me who cannot get a GC due to the even bigger loser of the US Legal system. At times, I even seek pleasure in reading some forums which detail how some people were denied GC because they were caught shoplifting et al. I guess those are some of the times I enjoy my own little echo chamber. I bet many of the active posters here feel the same way. In that sense I like what IV is doing. At least it is trying to dig a tunnel out of the hell hole . I like Techy's pov too - just twiddle thumbs untill the pd is current - why waste energy??? Cheers again.

 

[posmd]

Hey! I agree that many folks from yonder attempt to bolster their resume with false info. Is it not akin to how McDonalds sells their french fries? And besides that point, what really counts is that a majority of IT supply/demand these days is commoditised. Ya buy in bulk and ya sell in bulk. So, the risk of lying on the resume for a few dollars more (or for landing that job at all) is worth the taking. I guess one can call "Indians" as leaders in the commodity IT business (they sure are). I know for sure that even the highly respectable IT vendors ($1 billion + on revenues) knowingly lie on their employee resumes when they ship them to their clients. But thats how it works. But again, thats besides the point altogether. (Is it not?). I guess Eddie has a good point. One needs to get out of an echo chamber. Sometimes, when I am down in the dumps, I feel good to come to this forum and read about the countless other losers like me who cannot get a GC due to the even bigger loser of the US Legal system. At times, I even seek pleasure in reading some forums which detail how some people were denied GC because they were caught shoplifting et al. I guess those are some of the times I enjoy my own little echo chamber. I bet many of the active posters here feel the same way. In that sense I like what IV is doing. At least it is trying to dig a tunnel out of the hell hole . I like Techy's pov too - just twiddle thumbs untill the pd is current - why waste energy??? Cheers again.

Whatever your rationale for defending doing things by falsifying CVs etc. Your tone almost sounds like that practice is the normal and accepted modus operandi. That is not right nor does it make you look good. I agree with eddie_d in one regard here, I would not discount the possibility that proportionately more Indians inflate their CV to "get ahead". In so doing that person might get a lucky break but unfortunately it feeds certain stereotypes. One look at the recent charge for EB2 petition conversion from EB3 shows that, I am sure some conversions were merited but just see the result EB2.............Unavailable.
Defending that practice is truly ridiculous. Likewise eddie_d generalising that practice as all Indian H1bs also is ridiculous.
Perhaps in my healthcare field some of these issues are much less prevalent as a result of the requirement for strict US certification and qualification. Since such a thing apparently does not exist in the IT fields these arguments might arise. Could you imagine the folly of a fake doctor coming from Timbuktu and claiming to be a cardiac surgeon!!!
It would be like a bad version of one of those Holliday inn Express ads!

Wrongdoing is wrongdoing ............full stop............and generalisations and stereotyping are pretty much always off base. Thats my 2 cents.