After the Aug Bull....Is still Ameriaca the Best

[eddie_d]

I am not sure how what you are saying is different to what i posted.

More specifically not all EB2 and EB3 india are computer folks, there are biochemists, highway engineers, doctors, pharmacists and other such professionals for who there is currently a dire need here, make no mistake about it. I was bemoaning that this dinosaur of a system cannot perform like a balerina and filter out what it truly needs/wants. Again not sure if to blame the dinosaur or those that game it.

Well OK but your post specifically refered to IT professionals not any other profession. I don't know about this alleged lack of highway engineers and pharmacists. Do you have any sources for this?

But let's assume you're right and there is indeed a shortage of doctors, highway engineers and pharmacists. Why is immigration automatically the way to fix the shortage? Why not let the market to its thing? A shortage of workers will drive up wages, making these professions more attractive to Americans choosin a profession. Yes there may be a shortage for a few years while newly trained people enter the workforce, but I think as a nation the US will survive.

 

[eddie_d]

Outsourcing and Immigration

Seems like when someone says immigrants are taking American jobs, the response is that outsourcing can't be stopped because companies want lower costs.

So what you're advocating is a double whammy, really. Outsource half the jobs to India. Then the 1/2 that are left here, go to Indians immigrants. And you wonder why Americans are starting to take a restrictionist view on immigration?

 

[techy2468]

eddie_d ....i agree with you that to fix american system....business/gov needs to pay for the training/education of the people so that shortages in some professions are filled up quickly...

but thats not happening and from what i see it will never happen, it may take 10 years for a policy to yield results.....and if you take a look at the last 10 years in IT...we have been through such highs and lows...and its so unpredictable that nobody knows where things are going to be after 5 years..

so the short term solution.....get ready made--on demand people to fill the gap. and thats what is being done....and they will keep doing it unless unemployment stays above 6% for 2-3 years....and people make it an election issue....then the government will jump in to implement some populist measures....which may even hurt the economy/businesses.

ideally....high school / more colllege scholorships , short term courses etc are the way to fix this mess.....but nobody is doing it.

but if they restrict H1 visa or GC .....i am sure outsourcing is going to pick up the tempo, my assumption is that in the next 10 years another 40% of IT jobs will be gone....since no matter what it is always cheaper to get it done outside USA.

 

[posmd]

Well OK but your post specifically refered to IT professionals not any other profession. I don't know about this alleged lack of highway engineers and pharmacists. Do you have any sources for this?

But let's assume you're right and there is indeed a shortage of doctors, highway engineers and pharmacists. Why is immigration automatically the way to fix the shortage? Why not let the market to its thing? A shortage of workers will drive up wages, making these professions more attractive to Americans choosin a profession. Yes there may be a shortage for a few years while newly trained people enter the workforce, but I think as a nation the US will survive.

It is plain knowledge that this country is short of pharmacists, it is all over the news and they are even opening new schools to meet this need. Doctors are short in certain fields and in certain locations of the country. The US gov't maintains a Health professionals shortage area database, just google HPSA and you will see how many counties are short of health professionals.

Do you know how long it takes to train a doctor or a pharmacist? For doctors it is atleast 12 years. So any policy shift will take atleast that length of time to yield results. Well you are right the US will survive, I am not pretentious to say that without me or for that matter any shortage area person the country will be no more. The problem is people (US citizens) may suffer in this time. If there is no pharmacy in town or it shuts down due to a lack of pharmacist then the patient will have to go to the next town to get his prescription filled, is that not suffering unnecessarily. If he has no doctor to care for him, yeah he might die a few years earlier or go through a lot more suffering....................true the country will survive while people like you wait for the free market and the laws of demand and supply to catch up. I am sure if that person in need was someone close to you then you might think differently. I say this only to illustrate the point to you and demonstrate how a unidimentional view is indeed incorrect.

The correct course of action is a mixture of both policies ie increasing production of american born professionals and/or improving their conditions of work AND putting in a short term solution to it ie immigration. By the way, these professionals ie doctors and pharmacists are US trained with large subsidies from the US gov't, in other words noone is opening the flood gates here. I think your views are largely due to the fact that in IT, the outsourcing and insourcing has been far greater. I am reminding you that immigration is not only about IT people. I am also reminding you that one of the inherent weakensses in bargaining power of that profession is its vulnerability to data transfer this is the case with or without immigration.

 

[saras76]

Outsourcing ...

Seems like when someone says immigrants are taking American jobs, the response is that outsourcing can't be stopped because companies want lower costs.

So what you're advocating is a double whammy, really. Outsource half the jobs to India. Then the 1/2 that are left here, go to Indians immigrants. And you wonder why Americans are starting to take a restrictionist view on immigration?

eddie_d,

Americans can take all the restrictionist views towards immigration that they want. All this does not take away from the fact that the US public school system sucks, young Americans are not opting for science and math and there just aren't enough American engineers and IT professionals to fill the needs of the industry. Those Americans that are qualified demand compensation that is almost 4-5 times more than what an engineer in India demands. Its all about money and jobs are going to places that are more efficient and more economical. Restrictionist views towards immigration are like blinders that Americans are putting around their eyes so as to block the reality of global competition. Restrictive immigration procedures will only prevent "legal" immigrants from coming here and staying here. Illegals will still find their way here and their numbers will keep increasing. If the goal of the US is to drive away hard working legal immigrants and turn a blind eye towards illegals then they need to continue down this path. It will do nothing to keep jobs here ... infact in the long run Americans will have to pay more and more taxes to pay for all the resources being used by illegals while jobs will continue to flow out to India, China, Burma, Sri Lanka and any other place that is cheap and efficient. As for H1Bs, there is a never ending supply from India and companies love H1Bs because they can get away with paying them peanuts and working them like crazy. Again its the companies doing this. No H1B is forcing his/her way here. If jobs weren't there .. why would there by an H1B program.

If America truly feels that it has enough qualified people and that H1Bs are a drain on the system then they should abolish the H1B visa category altogether. It will ensure that all IT jobs go to Americans. It will also virtually eliminate the EB cateogry.

regards,

saras

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

Seems like when someone says immigrants are taking American jobs, the response is that outsourcing can't be stopped because companies want lower costs.

So what you're advocating is a double whammy, really. Outsource half the jobs to India. Then the 1/2 that are left here, go to Indians immigrants. And you wonder why Americans are starting to take a restrictionist view on immigration?

eddie_d,
Currently, number of outsourced jobs are lot more than number of indians waiting for their greencards. Outsourcing may take half of the jobs, but Indian immigrants do not take half of the IT jobs. They are not that many. Most of the greencard jobs are applied only after advertising and after not finding citizens for these jobs. H1 applications do not require any such advertisements, but still the corporate america is lobbying for more H1s every year but not that much for permanent residency. Techy is right, if you have very restrictive immigration policy jobs are going to outsourced anyway. Hope you understand that. The current country quota irrespective of categories appears incorrect; it is not doing any help to citizens rather forcing the jobs and bright people outside the US.

 

[immi2006]

On a lighter note

I think US govt shud see a broader reason, if India and China gets huge investments, then there is all the more reason for US to open the gates for Indi and China, to possibly arrest the flow of investments and intellectual capital. Atleast, the GOVT can get taxes from these hardworking individuals.

Moving the Jobs to India and China, they not only loose jobs, talents, they also loose taxes big time. For example, some of the MNC who reap huge profits - reinvest in tax haven areas in Asia, so that they need not repatriate the money back to US. This has been going on for sometime now. Infact big MNC take loans in US at lower rate, reinvest the money in India and also loan out $ to subsidiarly companies at higher interest rates.

We need to highlight the above of MNC's interest in the name of outsourcing.

At the end of day, I do feel disappointed for not making much headway due to retrogession. Atleast millions of folks in Asia get to make money now, and milk US a lot. This is one satisfying part, atleast the std of living is going up there now

 

[tusharvk]

outsourcing creates the rising standard of living elsewhere; once the standard of living rises the demand for higher salaries in those regions is created.

also, higher standard of living raises demand for goods and services; thereby mostly helping the employers again.

immigration is going to compete with outsourcing; in some industries (IT, back-office work and so on) outsourcing is emerging the clear winner.

some other industries (healthcare, biochem, etc.) are facing shortages. but the higher wages demanded by these professionals itself spur migration of professionals(short-term solution) or immigration to the US, outsourcing (medium-term solution) to low cost locales and followed by automation (long-term and perhaps the permanent solution).

 

[techy2468]

i do agree and believe that we(H1B seeking GC) are merely a drop in the ocean.....and we can be replace in blink by another H1B......hence corporate america does not have to worry.

but GC was the reward why many people come to USA as H1B.....you can see now that the quality of people coming on H1B will decrease.

 

[eddie_d]

eddie_d,

Americans can take all the restrictionist views towards immigration that they want. All this does not take away from the fact that the US public school system sucks, young Americans are not opting for science and math and there just aren't enough American engineers and IT professionals to fill the needs of the industry. Those Americans that are qualified demand compensation that is almost 4-5 times more than what an engineer in India demands. Its all about money and jobs are going to places that are more efficient and more economical. Restrictionist views towards immigration are like blinders that Americans are putting around their eyes so as to block the reality of global competition. Restrictive immigration procedures will only prevent "legal" immigrants from coming here and staying here. Illegals will still find their way here and their numbers will keep increasing. If the goal of the US is to drive away hard working legal immigrants and turn a blind eye towards illegals then they need to continue down this path. It will do nothing to keep jobs here ... infact in the long run Americans will have to pay more and more taxes to pay for all the resources being used by illegals while jobs will continue to flow out to India, China, Burma, Sri Lanka and any other place that is cheap and efficient. As for H1Bs, there is a never ending supply from India and companies love H1Bs because they can get away with paying them peanuts and working them like crazy. Again its the companies doing this. No H1B is forcing his/her way here. If jobs weren't there .. why would there by an H1B program.

If America truly feels that it has enough qualified people and that H1Bs are a drain on the system then they should abolish the H1B visa category altogether. It will ensure that all IT jobs go to Americans. It will also virtually eliminate the EB cateogry.

regards,

saras

You're mixing apples and oranges here. H1B, illegals, outsourcing, Sri Lanka...you're all over the place.

It's very simple. If there is a shortage you bring in temp workers. When the shortage is over, they go home. But in reality there is no such thing as a temp worker, nobody ever gets home. How many Indian H1Bs are there well past the 6 year "max"?

Outsourcing has nothing to do with anything. Why do you insist on mixing it in with immigration?

 

[tusharvk]

yes, quality of some who came here on h1b around the y2k period is low and hence, obviously the "rewarding" GC is not coming along for those.

i do agree and believe that we(H1B seeking GC) are merely a drop in the ocean.....and we can be replace in blink by another H1B......hence corporate america does not have to worry.

but GC was the reward why many people come to USA as H1B.....you can see now that the quality of people coming on H1B will decrease.

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

i do agree and believe that we(H1B seeking GC) are merely a drop in the ocean.....and we can be replace in blink by another H1B......hence corporate america does not have to worry.

but GC was the reward why many people come to USA as H1B.....you can see now that the quality of people coming on H1B will decrease.

absolutely. thats why many times i thought the law that allows H1 to stay more than 6 years after applying for GC is the worst thing that could have happened for H1s. Otherwise they would have gone and new H1s would have learned from them. When infosys, wipro,... are all recruiting through campus interviews, i doubt the quality of future H1s coming here.

 

[saras76]

Its the system ..

You're mixing apples and oranges here. H1B, illegals, outsourcing, Sri Lanka...you're all over the place.

It's very simple. If there is a shortage you bring in temp workers. When the shortage is over, they go home. But in reality there is no such thing as a temp worker, nobody ever gets home. How many Indian H1Bs are there well past the 6 year "max"?

Outsourcing has nothing to do with anything. Why do you insist on mixing it in with immigration?

eddie_d,

I am not all over the place. You mentioned in your earlier post that Americans are becoming more and more restrictive towards immigrations due to "outsourcing" and "H1Bs taking there jobs here in the US". My post was in response to that. In the big picture everything is related ...

regards,

saras

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

You're mixing apples and oranges here. H1B, illegals, outsourcing, Sri Lanka...you're all over the place.

It's very simple. If there is a shortage you bring in temp workers. When the shortage is over, they go home. But in reality there is no such thing as a temp worker, nobody ever gets home. How many Indian H1Bs are there well past the 6 year "max"?

Outsourcing has nothing to do with anything. Why do you insist on mixing it in with immigration?

eddie_d,
If there is no shortage for workers, why corporate america is lobbying for H1 increase every year. Obviously they need, now the question is whether you send back a person after spending 6 years here that too when he has a GC labor approved after going through advertisement... (OR) You bring in one more H1 worker in his place. For me it looks like there should be a immigration law change that makes the immigration easy for the guy who spent 6 years here.

 

[techy2468]

i am glad eddie_d has joined this forum....atleast we are getting to hear the other side of the camp..

why we need more immigration, why not only use H1B.......when some one comes to usa from india (thats my knowledge, i am not much in touch with any other country folks) 75% of the decision is based on the fact that he will get GC after few years of toil.

if you take GC out of the picture, the quality will decline because the good people will not like to live this temp life in usa.....they will prefer to come here on temp visit thru their company based in india...

but since there is no dearth of humans with sufficient training in india there will always be people who cannot find high earning jobs over there and will be willing to come to usa to accumulate some savings in 4-5 years time frame.

even as we speak few of my friends (Avg programmers like me) are relocating to USA on H1 visa...because they can save 2-3 times more than being in india...i am sure money is their only motivation and they are well aware of GC mess.

 

[saras76]

Yes .. change in perspective ...

i am glad eddie_d has joined this forum....atleast we are getting to hear the other side of the camp..

why we need more immigration, why not only use H1B.......when some one comes to usa from india (thats my knowledge, i am not much in touch with any other country folks) 75% of the decision is based on the fact that he will get GC after few years of toil.

if you take GC out of the picture, the quality will decline because the good people will not like to live this temp life in usa.....they will prefer to come here on temp visit thru their company based in india...

but since there is no dearth of humans with sufficient training in india there will always be people who cannot find high earning jobs over there and will be willing to come to usa to accumulate some savings in 4-5 years time frame.

even as we speak few of my friends (Avg programmers like me) are relocating to USA on H1 visa...because they can save 2-3 times more than being in india...i am sure money is their only motivation and they are well aware of GC mess.

techy,

A lot of people make all sorts of judgement calls on H1Bs who have been here for 6+ years. We have been called losers by some, desparate by others and all sorts of other things. Most H1Bs do not consider the "GC" as their right nor do they expect any special treatment. Most of us followed the rules and applied for our GCs because we saw the advantage in that. We also knew that the process would take 5-6 years and we were willing to do that. What has happened now is that this retro has placed an almost indefenite pause in the process and most of us that were "hoping" (not EXPECTING) to have some sort of outcome after 5-6 years of the process are left in this total limbo. A lot of us have lived here for over 10 years and many of us have invested a lot of our time and our money here. Now we are in a situation where we are having to consider the possibility of waiting another 3-4 years in jobs that we probably don't really enjoy. That is taking its toll on most people and those frustrations come across as "demanding" resolutions. No H1B is demanding that they be given special treatment but this unexpected turn of events has turned a lot of our lives upside down.

The blame ultimately lies with us. We started this process, we took the risk. We have to deal with the consequences. There will be times when we will complain (out of sheer frustration) but ultimately we all know that this is all our doing. Those of us who have put our lives on hold for the past 5-6 years are now regreting it and that frustration comes across in our posts. Its only human nature to do so.

regards,

saras

 

[eddie_d]

eddie_d,
If there is no shortage for workers, why corporate america is lobbying for H1 increase every year. Obviously they need, now the question is whether you send back a person after spending 6 years here that too when he has a GC labor approved after going through advertisement... (OR) You bring in one more H1 worker in his place. For me it looks like there should be a immigration law change that makes the immigration easy for the guy who spent 6 years here.

Come on indian_gc, you know the answer to your own question. It is the same reason businesses are all for illegal immigrants, so they can get away with paying less for workers.

You hear the pro-illegal crowd say over and over that without illegals, fruit wouldn't be picked, hotel rooms wouldn't be cleaned, dishes wouldn't be washed at restaurants etc. That is a load of crap. At $6 an hour none of that will happen without illegals. But pay an American $12 and you'll find plenty willing to do the work.

Moving up the food chain some, you get to programmers. Let's look at the option for an employer:

a) Hire an American who can leave at any time for a better offer and who will demand top dollar

or

b) hire an H1B at a lower salary, who you know wll probably never leave, never complain, never ask for anything

Tough choice indeed for the employer indeed. Obviously this isn't the case in 100% of H1Bs, but it is the norm, is it not?

 

[indian_gc_ocean]

Come on indian_gc, you know the answer to your own question. It is the same reason businesses are all for illegal immigrants, so they can get away with paying less for workers.

You hear the pro-illegal crowd say over and over that without illegals, fruit wouldn't be picked, hotel rooms wouldn't be cleaned, dishes wouldn't be washed at restaurants etc. That is a load of crap. At $6 an hour none of that will happen without illegals. But pay an American $12 and you'll find plenty willing to do the work.

Moving up the food chain some, you get to programmers. Let's look at the option for an employer:

a) Hire an American who can leave at any time for a better offer and who will demand top dollar

or

b) hire an H1B at a lower salary, who you know wll probably never leave, never complain, never ask for anything

Tough choice indeed for the employer indeed. Obviously this isn't the case in 100% of H1Bs, but it is the norm, is it not?

This is exactly the reason why companies do not support immigration law changes that help H1B towards permanent residency with in a reasonable time(3-5 years). Lot of indians are really frustrated with these deadlocks.

Many times its not the US's prosperity, great roads, or the life style that makes one to be in US but its the desire to grow in the company after working in it for many years or the search for freedom after continously getting used by different companies for being ambitious. You know a H1 cannot change a job easily without a GC, with this you can imagine what would be his/her professional growth.

Thats why when immigration laws reach a deadend people complain its not that they don't like the country or anything. Now we are at a stage where we see that illegal/unskilled immigration is effecting legal/talented. If US has to remain technologically on top, it has to work on the immigration laws. Thats what we are discussing here.

 

[GCdreamer2006]

Not all jobs are outsourceable. Those non outsourceable jobs are jobs citizens of any country should fight to protect. That is natural. Simply applying the idea that it is about competition and open the Gates of India to let all poeple there come here doesn't seem realistic nor positive to America.

eddie_d,

Its all about money and jobs are going to places that are more efficient and more economical. Restrictionist views towards immigration are like blinders
regards,

saras

 

[stucklabor]

Come on indian_gc, you know the answer to your own question. It is the same reason businesses are all for illegal immigrants, so they can get away with paying less for workers.

You hear the pro-illegal crowd say over and over that without illegals, fruit wouldn't be picked, hotel rooms wouldn't be cleaned, dishes wouldn't be washed at restaurants etc. That is a load of crap. At $6 an hour none of that will happen without illegals. But pay an American $12 and you'll find plenty willing to do the work.

Moving up the food chain some, you get to programmers. Let's look at the option for an employer:

a) Hire an American who can leave at any time for a better offer and who will demand top dollar

or

b) hire an H1B at a lower salary, who you know wll probably never leave, never complain, never ask for anything

Tough choice indeed for the employer indeed. Obviously this isn't the case in 100% of H1Bs, but it is the norm, is it not?

Eddie_d,

I work for a big tech company. My ex-boss said informally several times that his foreign employees made more money than his American ones. If the foreigners were let go that would be the end of the company. I am not kidding.

I have a bunch of friends from India here. Trust me, none of them are the "never complain, never ask for anything" types that you posit. Most of them make well in the 6 figure range. Even if they are in industries that don't pay high salaries, they are driven and have much responsibility.

And if you are an employer who treats his H1B employee unfairly thinking that he/she is an indentured servant based on the green card petition, if that employee is any good at all, they will walk out on you 6 months after the GC is approved. You have just lost a good proved-in employee and will likely need to take a chance on someone new. Ask any good first-line manager if they would trade in a good proved-in employee for a new hire and see what they say.

So if you want to troll, go right ahead and you will get several people to bite and argue with you, but realize that you are posting generalizations galore. You are likely working off a skewed sample if you are generalizing on responses in this thread.