But if you do not go there, you may not know what causes the problem and
you may not have peace of mind. Most likely it is juts a simple matter with a simpke explantion but you will always wonder if you do not go there to find out
US Citizen asked to appear at local office?
- Thread starter mountaineer
- Start date
But if you do not go there, you may not know what causes the problem and
you may not have peace of mind. Most likely it is juts a simple matter with a simpke explantion but you will always wonder if you do not go there to find out
Hence your suggestion to copy the certificate should be sufficient instead of dishing out extra money for a lawyer. I cannot see why they would revoke a certificate based on some administrative error on the certificate on their part without correcting the error on the spot and issuing you a new one. A lawyer won't be able to help if the DO chooses to retain the certificate for correction to be sent to applicant at a later date.
Since you mentioned that, It might be that they want to replace the certificate with the correct date(second oath ceremony). since that is the right date of naturalization not the first oath date.
I am making a bet that it probably has to do with the fact that she missed her oath. They may have two certificates for her and have to check to make sure that she has one on hand in order to possibly destroy the other. That is my take.
Does the date on the Cert match with the date on which she really took oath (the second time) ? If it was printed for the first time, may be the date doesnt match ? Tell them she is elderly and cannot make the trip so sending the copy of Nat. Exercise the safest option when one is available.
Retaining your certificate for correction and revoking it are two different things. Don't be alarmed by those using the term "revoke" as it incorrectly suggests that the certificate is rendered null and void.
Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
That's not the reason they would revoke it. They may want to revoke it because an audit of her case led them to believe her naturalization should not have been granted. Since they have the power to administratively revoke a certificate, that is what they sometimes do when the case isn't strong enough for full-blown denaturalization in court. So the citizen in question here should not let USCIS see or touch the original certificate without knowing the exact reason why and having the opportunity to challenge that reason.
The lawyer can help with challenging USCIS to ensure whatever procedures they're supposed to follow or paperwork they're supposed to give (if any) has been given by USCIS before taking away the certificate, and argue with them about the validity of the reason for revoking it. If USCIS doesn't have all their ducks in a row regarding what they're supposed to in the situation, they're likely to back off (for now) as a result of the lawyer's objections. But it's best to show up with only a copy, so with or without a lawyer they don't have the opportunity to physically take the original certificate on that day. She's a US citizen, they can't detain her for showing up without the actual certificate.
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mountaineer
Registered Users (C)
Thanks all again! I think the better advice is to mail a copy of the certificate.
Her current certificate has the correct date she took her oath but apparently another certificate, as explained by the IO, was created for the first ceremony that she missed (well, which she never received the letter for!). They must have this first certificate in her file since she was never given it.
Her current certificate has the correct date she took her oath but apparently another certificate, as explained by the IO, was created for the first ceremony that she missed (well, which she never received the letter for!). They must have this first certificate in her file since she was never given it.
phillydude411
Registered Users (C)
Does she already have a US passport, if not apply for that asap. That way if they take the certificate for some reason or destroy it and promise to send you a new one (with the corrected oath date), your not stuck without citizenship proof.
Certification revocation based on post oath audit that discovered applicant was not eligible for naturalization seems like a far fetched idea in this case.
It's more plausible that there was an error on certificate itself based on what the OP mentioned about applicant missing first oath.
Make a photo copy of the certificate for you records just in case. If she sends it my mail, make sure she sends it registered at the least.
Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
I hope you're right, but it's still better to avoid giving them the opportunity to confiscate the original certificate on that day, even if they plan to issue a corrected certificate. If USCIS is wrong in their reasoning, better to hold on to the certificate and challenge them than to have the certificate taken and be fighting and waiting for months to get it back.
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Triple Citizen
Registered Users (C)
richmondva
Registered Users (C)
Wow! I cannot imagine there to be so much paranoia! Revoke certificate, take lawyer etc! I suppose we are living in a democratic country and she has already been a citizen for few months!
It's probably a small issue which might best be handled by making the visit on the requested date, time and place with her original certificate. If for any genuine reason she cannot make this date, then follow the second option of mailing a copy.
I wonder why everyone looks at such matters with suspicion. After all the certificate is only a document and has intrinsic value as long as it is attached to the appropriate approval behind the scene (USCIS etc). No point in keeping it locked at the safe in the bank if the underlying problem is not addressed or if it was officially revoked (which I very much doubt). Keeping a photocopy at home may not be a bad idea (if any legal matter were to arise by any chance later, a copy should suffice). I would suggest against getting over concerned as long as you feel/know that she has not done anything majorly wrong. Just follow the instructions in the letter.
Of course I am not a lawyer but this is my 2 cents!
It's probably a small issue which might best be handled by making the visit on the requested date, time and place with her original certificate. If for any genuine reason she cannot make this date, then follow the second option of mailing a copy.
I wonder why everyone looks at such matters with suspicion. After all the certificate is only a document and has intrinsic value as long as it is attached to the appropriate approval behind the scene (USCIS etc). No point in keeping it locked at the safe in the bank if the underlying problem is not addressed or if it was officially revoked (which I very much doubt). Keeping a photocopy at home may not be a bad idea (if any legal matter were to arise by any chance later, a copy should suffice). I would suggest against getting over concerned as long as you feel/know that she has not done anything majorly wrong. Just follow the instructions in the letter.
Of course I am not a lawyer but this is my 2 cents!
Because USCIS is widely known for making people's lives miserable not because US law says so but because uninformed USCIS officer thought the law said so.
spiderman03
Registered Users (C)
My suggestion: Make a color copy for yourself and take the original with you on the appointment date. There is no point in hiding from USCIS. If they are legally allowed to revoke your citizenship for any valid reason, they will do it anyway, with or without your appearance once the appointment date is gone. It is foolish to hide from a government agency. Based on what you wrote, it is most likely that they want to rectify any confusion in the papaerwork. If you mail instead of appearing in person as many are suggesting, it will only heighten the anxiety in you and you will also loose the oppurtunity to get a clear answer from them person-person. You mail it and you don't hear form them for several months and you will be in a limbo regarding the validity of the certificate you are holding, not to mention the end result if you apply for a US passport based on that certificate. Just go and clear the issue right away.
Even if the law is on your side, it takes lot of money and time (USCIS is known for taking forever to do anything) to sort things out if they do something incorrectly, so why chance it?
newapplicant
Registered Users (C)
Just wanted to bring out the following, since some serious words are tossed here like 'revoking' a naturalization certificate.(especailly when it was not obtained by --fraudulently,with material concealment and so on,as the OP seems to have none of these..as per OP postings so far there are none)
Let us see to the extent the provisions exist really what really happens in which scenarios.
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1)8 C.F.R. PART 342—ADMINISTRATIVE CANCELLATION OF CERTIFICATES, DOCUMENTS, OR RECORDS
Title 8 - Aliens and Nationality .
§ 342.1 Notice.
If it shall appear to a district director that a person has illegally or fraudulently obtained or caused to be created a certificate, document, or record described in section 342 of the Act, a notice shall be served upon the person of intention to cancel the certificate, document, or record. The notice shall contain allegations of the reasons for the proposed action and shall advise the person that he may submit, within 60 days of service of the notice, an answer in writing under oath or affirmation showing cause why the certificate, document, or record should not be canceled, that he may appear in person before a naturalization examiner in support of, or in lieu of his written answer, and that he may have present at that time, without expense to the Government, an attorney or representative qualified under part 292 of this chapter. In such proceedings the person shall be known as the respondent.
<<<Note above that notice shall contain allegations.>>>>.
And
2)Section 340 INA Revocation of Naturalization [8 USC 1451] .
(b) Notice to party - The party to whom was granted the naturalization alleged to have been illegally procured or procured by concealment of a material fact or by willful misrepresentation shall, in any such proceedings under subsection (a) of this section, have sixty days' personal notice, unless waived by such party, in which to make answers to the petition of the United States; and if such naturalized person be absent from the United States or from the judicial district in which such person last had his residence, such notice shall be given either by personal service upon him or by publication in the manner provided for the service of summons by publication or upon absentees by the laws of the States or the place where such suit is brought.
<<<INA mentions same thing above>>>.
AND.
3)(a) Concealment of material evidence; refusal to testify - It shall be the duty of the United States attorneys for the respective districts, upon affidavit showing good cause therefor, to institute proceedings in any district court of the United States in the judicial district in which the naturalized citizen may reside at the time of bringing suit, for the purpose of revoking and setting aside the 'order' admitting such person to citizenship and canceling the certificate of naturalization on the ground that such order and certificate of naturalization were illegally procured or were procured by concealment of a material fact or by willful misrepresentation, and such revocation and setting aside of the order admitting such person to citizenship and such canceling of certificate of naturalization shall be effective as of the original date of the order and certificate, respectively
..........so on
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So is there any slightest indication of the above in the letter?seems to me none(as per OPs postings).
If any one knows there are any other law clauses that can 'simply; can cancel the naturalization,please post.
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Note: I am not a lawyer and I am just a lay man without any legal knowledge.!
Read the above STRICTLY at your own risk.
Let us see to the extent the provisions exist really what really happens in which scenarios.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1)8 C.F.R. PART 342—ADMINISTRATIVE CANCELLATION OF CERTIFICATES, DOCUMENTS, OR RECORDS
Title 8 - Aliens and Nationality .
§ 342.1 Notice.
If it shall appear to a district director that a person has illegally or fraudulently obtained or caused to be created a certificate, document, or record described in section 342 of the Act, a notice shall be served upon the person of intention to cancel the certificate, document, or record. The notice shall contain allegations of the reasons for the proposed action and shall advise the person that he may submit, within 60 days of service of the notice, an answer in writing under oath or affirmation showing cause why the certificate, document, or record should not be canceled, that he may appear in person before a naturalization examiner in support of, or in lieu of his written answer, and that he may have present at that time, without expense to the Government, an attorney or representative qualified under part 292 of this chapter. In such proceedings the person shall be known as the respondent.
<<<Note above that notice shall contain allegations.>>>>.
And
2)Section 340 INA Revocation of Naturalization [8 USC 1451] .
(b) Notice to party - The party to whom was granted the naturalization alleged to have been illegally procured or procured by concealment of a material fact or by willful misrepresentation shall, in any such proceedings under subsection (a) of this section, have sixty days' personal notice, unless waived by such party, in which to make answers to the petition of the United States; and if such naturalized person be absent from the United States or from the judicial district in which such person last had his residence, such notice shall be given either by personal service upon him or by publication in the manner provided for the service of summons by publication or upon absentees by the laws of the States or the place where such suit is brought.
<<<INA mentions same thing above>>>.
AND.
3)(a) Concealment of material evidence; refusal to testify - It shall be the duty of the United States attorneys for the respective districts, upon affidavit showing good cause therefor, to institute proceedings in any district court of the United States in the judicial district in which the naturalized citizen may reside at the time of bringing suit, for the purpose of revoking and setting aside the 'order' admitting such person to citizenship and canceling the certificate of naturalization on the ground that such order and certificate of naturalization were illegally procured or were procured by concealment of a material fact or by willful misrepresentation, and such revocation and setting aside of the order admitting such person to citizenship and such canceling of certificate of naturalization shall be effective as of the original date of the order and certificate, respectively
..........so on
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So is there any slightest indication of the above in the letter?seems to me none(as per OPs postings).
If any one knows there are any other law clauses that can 'simply; can cancel the naturalization,please post.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: I am not a lawyer and I am just a lay man without any legal knowledge.!
Read the above STRICTLY at your own risk.
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First of all, USCIS would not trick US citizens to show up for an unexplained reason and then revoke their certificates. Before Gorbach vs. Reno, the INS could indeed revoke the citizenship through administrative procedures but even then they would first send a notice of intent to revoke naturalisation with an explanation why they are considering this action.
My understanding is that even if they wanted to revoke the certificate itself, they would still need to explain their intent in the letter. However, it does not make much sense because certificate without a corresponding USCIS record in database is of little importance. So they could just cancel the certificate "electronically". I would suggest to apply for an expedited passport and passport card, and then send the copy of the certificate in the mail. The bottom line is that a US citizen should not fear the USCIS because they have no jurisdiction what-so-ever over the US citizens.
My understanding is that even if they wanted to revoke the certificate itself, they would still need to explain their intent in the letter. However, it does not make much sense because certificate without a corresponding USCIS record in database is of little importance. So they could just cancel the certificate "electronically". I would suggest to apply for an expedited passport and passport card, and then send the copy of the certificate in the mail. The bottom line is that a US citizen should not fear the USCIS because they have no jurisdiction what-so-ever over the US citizens.