so now you want a 60X40 site for your house......why not settle down for a 30X40 and the price will be half???(afterall we are talking about a 3 bedroom house with a garage, right??)........come one dude live in reality.......people with property are the king in bangalore today......and they want their pound of flesh.....guldukan said:
Outlook for FY2007
- Thread starter AGC4ME
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Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
Same thing I was thinking. The predominance of family-based over employment-based immigration never made sense to me and most other developed countries don't do it. And I am even speaking as someone with US citizen family members in the US.techy2468 said:
What is the benefit to the US economy if hundreds of thousands of random people are allowed in because of their family lines, at the expense of others whose skills and labor are highly in demand? Instead of 600,000+ FB and 140,000 EB per year, it should be the other way around.
While "family reunification" sounds like a nice and honorable goal, immigration doesn't do much to help that because each person who immigrates becomes separated from other relatives back home. Let spouses and their children stay together, so married people don't have to split up and children don't have to go without a father or mother ... but beyond that, you're not increasing family unity, you're just exchanging the side of the ocean where more of the disunity exists.
Also, when so many are allowed to immigrate without regard for their skills or lack thereof, it increases the chances that more of them will become a net drain on US society, which in turn fuels anti-immigrant sentiments among Americans.
Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
Sure they will tune me out, but that's not the point. My point was that the brother/sister/cousin/granny/uncle/dog/cat immigration doesn't help family unity... any of those relatives who come here under the guise of family reunification are just breaking up the family where they came from. Moving money from the left hand to the right hand doesn't make you richer.unitednations said:
But I agree with you that family-based immigration gives a nice warm fuzzy feeling to Americans who want to promote "family values", while employment-based immigration has the perception of "taking away American jobs".
Whereas the reality is that the family-based immigrants are also going to take jobs and those jobs will be taken without regard for the supply or demand for American workers to fill those jobs. Or some come here and *don't* take jobs, and become a drain on society.
You may think I am biased in favor of employment-based immigration because I happen to be in that process. But no, as I said before, I have family in the US and have the option to pursue a green card via family if I want.
I don't think the FB quotas should be reduced (and cause more retrogression and stress) ... I think all categories of FB immigration should be *eliminated* except spouse and non-adult children. Then they can ensure the core family is processed quickly, as well as allowing faster EB immigration, without having to increase the overall immigration numbers or budget.
I also don't think the current EB system does a good job of attracting or allowing in the workers most needed by the economy. It needs an overhaul, not just a simple expansion of the quota. It's those who are the most persistent and patient, or the most willing to resort to trickery (e.g. labor substitution) who get in, not those most wanted by the economy.
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Valid Points
These are all valid points being made. However there is noone on the hill that wants to address them.
The problem with family reunification is that like the number infinity , if there is no resistance/delay or quota to people coming here, then everyone in the world could come here.As it stands 800K a year is not a small number. If I file to bring my brother here then his wife's side of the family (who I the original petitioner might not care too much about but she would) would then be eligible, there is no end to this chain reaction.
In that way there will never be an end to it. In that regard the immigration restrictionists do have a valid point in what mandates the unification if so desired to always be one way. Fact is, immigration by definition tends to always be toward "better places" to live, and the US happens to be pretty close to the top of that heap.
In regards to EB immigration, most observers agree that 140K is woefully small for a country of this size, however policy makers feel that more family based will be on their way anyway so lets keep it as low as possible. In addition the arrival of illegals and the reluctance of this country to deal with them lets them keep it low. Furthermore the criteria are set forth once again based on a quota system that encourages diversity at the expense of all other criteria.
There are amongst those EB applicants on this forum those that are genuinely scarce and for whose jobs there are genuinely no takers. One such example of that is the Dep't of Health and Human Services designated Health professional shortage areas, deep rural and inner city areas where there are no physicians to take care of the people. IF the Gov't feels convinced on this basis to grant NIW in exchange for 5 yrs of service there, then what's the problem after that? As a moral argument, here thousands of their citizens derive a benefit out of that. With family reunification a few individuals get the benefit along with everyone else getting a warm fuzzy feeling.
The current system is clearly in need of overhaul, most people can see the injustices but everyone feels paralysed to act, for fear of what the next action will bring.
These are all valid points being made. However there is noone on the hill that wants to address them.
The problem with family reunification is that like the number infinity , if there is no resistance/delay or quota to people coming here, then everyone in the world could come here.As it stands 800K a year is not a small number. If I file to bring my brother here then his wife's side of the family (who I the original petitioner might not care too much about but she would) would then be eligible, there is no end to this chain reaction.
In that way there will never be an end to it. In that regard the immigration restrictionists do have a valid point in what mandates the unification if so desired to always be one way. Fact is, immigration by definition tends to always be toward "better places" to live, and the US happens to be pretty close to the top of that heap.
In regards to EB immigration, most observers agree that 140K is woefully small for a country of this size, however policy makers feel that more family based will be on their way anyway so lets keep it as low as possible. In addition the arrival of illegals and the reluctance of this country to deal with them lets them keep it low. Furthermore the criteria are set forth once again based on a quota system that encourages diversity at the expense of all other criteria.
There are amongst those EB applicants on this forum those that are genuinely scarce and for whose jobs there are genuinely no takers. One such example of that is the Dep't of Health and Human Services designated Health professional shortage areas, deep rural and inner city areas where there are no physicians to take care of the people. IF the Gov't feels convinced on this basis to grant NIW in exchange for 5 yrs of service there, then what's the problem after that? As a moral argument, here thousands of their citizens derive a benefit out of that. With family reunification a few individuals get the benefit along with everyone else getting a warm fuzzy feeling.
The current system is clearly in need of overhaul, most people can see the injustices but everyone feels paralysed to act, for fear of what the next action will bring.
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Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
Bottom line: Family immigration outside of spouses and minor children doesn't help family unity, and the employment-based immigration as currently implemented doesn't do much help for the economy.
Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
No family immigration beyond spouses and minor children, and no EB immigration under the current system (i.e. use a different EB system instead, points based or something, and make the process less dependent on specific employers).unitednations said:
What good does an NIW filed in EB2 India do? Why designate areas as HPSA and approve those for NIW then throw them with the rest of the crowd?
UN, whats the answer to this pointed question?
The system is broken. You can defend it, but the only reason it goes on is this country is big and powerful enough that inefficiencies here and there are inconsequential. Lets face it these things take time to sort out and right now the appetite for change is not there. That change is needed most people including americans agree, perhaps not you.
Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
Most other developed countries only allow spouse and child immigration, and as long as people can bring their spouse and children they don't seem to be overly distressed about not bringing their brother and his dog.unitednations said:
It probably won't happen in the US because it's so hard to change decades-old law, and people's misperceptions about immigration's effect on family unity and EB immigrants "taking American jobs". But that doesn't mean I won't voice my opinion against it or that nearly everybody in the US agrees with keeping it that way. Many American's aren't very happy about "chain migration", and the only way to stop chain migration is to limit family-based to spouse and minor children. The difficulty of change doesn't mean it's impossible or that I should be complacent about it. Bigger changes have occurred in US history.
It's here for a small percentage of EB immigrants; everybody else is still based on who is best at the waiting game or jumping the line, while causing great economic inefficiencies due to the barriers to changing jobs or getting promoted. Still rubbish. They should and can rank EVERYBODY, and then quickly approve the highest point-getters up until the quota is filled, and reject the rest just as fast so they can move on with their lives and possibly pursue immigration elsewhere.
If there are X number of green cards per year and 10X are applying, accept the top 10% and reject the rest right away. Harvard receives about 10 times as many applications as they have spaces; if their method of accepting students was based on who was waiting the longest, their student population would be of a much lower quality.
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getting brother and sisters does not promote any family unit is agreed; but parents need to be allowed.
chain immigration has to stop and so there would need to be limits of some sort.
the fact that people from under-subscribed countries are getting their GCs in 6-8 months and others from (IN, CHI) are being asked to wait for years because of retro does mean that the latter are de facto being rejected and the CIS is telling them to feel free to move on.
Waiting game also happens in canada. From what I have read, people land there and then take up some survival jobs and wait until getting citizenships and some just get frustrated and head back home.
chain immigration has to stop and so there would need to be limits of some sort.
the fact that people from under-subscribed countries are getting their GCs in 6-8 months and others from (IN, CHI) are being asked to wait for years because of retro does mean that the latter are de facto being rejected and the CIS is telling them to feel free to move on.
Waiting game also happens in canada. From what I have read, people land there and then take up some survival jobs and wait until getting citizenships and some just get frustrated and head back home.
Jackolantern said:
mariner555
Registered Users (C)
Jackolantern,
> aren't very happy about "chain migration", and the only way > to stop chain migration is to limit family-based to spouse and > minor children.
I wonder how you would have felt if you had a US brother and he had applied for you.
most people who oppose immigration dont understand that immigration helps USA too ..you would not have had a housing boom and a dot com boom if US policy had restricted immigration.
look at Japan ...one of the reasons Japan will slide down over the years is because their population is aging rapidly
> aren't very happy about "chain migration", and the only way > to stop chain migration is to limit family-based to spouse and > minor children.
I wonder how you would have felt if you had a US brother and he had applied for you.
most people who oppose immigration dont understand that immigration helps USA too ..you would not have had a housing boom and a dot com boom if US policy had restricted immigration.
look at Japan ...one of the reasons Japan will slide down over the years is because their population is aging rapidly
i agree with you.....by retrogressing india/china EB2/EB3 they are writing the indirect message on the wall.....that they dont care and we are free to move..........but we want a direct message or maybe we still have some hope......or the fact is that this temporary life over here feels much better than having to make a move and create another life......tusharvk said:
Jackolantern
Registered Users (C)
I do, but he didn't apply and I didn't ask him to. Half of my extended family is already in the US with green cards or citizenship. Just because I can and may take advantage of chain migration myself doesn't mean it makes any sense to me.mariner555 said:
Suppose my bank just decided to start giving out $10,000 each to a randomly selected 20% of their customers. If they offered me the money, of course I'd take it. But I'd still think it was dumb and would wonder how long before they go out of business.
Remember, I am not saying to decrease the overall immigration numbers. I am saying to tilt the balance to make it more employment-based, with a ranking system that scoops off the top X% to fill the quota and approve/reject everybody quickly, so most people can earn their spot rather than have it based on nepotism, and so that the overall quality of the applicant pool is increased and people don't waste years waiting and waiting in uncertainty. Let it be 80/20 for EB/FB instead of the other way around.
That's what every organization with far more applicants than positions does, whether it is a job, a sports team, or a school. They choose the best to fill the spots and send away the rest. They don't make most of their choices based on who is related to who (although some amount of nepotism does exist everywhere) or who was waiting the longest; they select those who are expected to contribute the most to their organization.
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mariner555
Registered Users (C)
quick correction,
here the bank is not just giving money but taking money too ..immigrants who are yound do help the economy. people who get gc when they are in 60's normally decline the gc .ofcourse there are some exceptions. my feeling is in most cases immigration helps US...
also in the end ..law has been passed which helps brothers/sisters ..we may not like it but we have to accept it.
here the bank is not just giving money but taking money too ..immigrants who are yound do help the economy. people who get gc when they are in 60's normally decline the gc .ofcourse there are some exceptions. my feeling is in most cases immigration helps US...
also in the end ..law has been passed which helps brothers/sisters ..we may not like it but we have to accept it.
mariner555
Registered Users (C)
UN,unitednations said:
They got the solution to do it in India. They are very happy with the quality and don't have to deal with the issues with Americans (sick time, have to leave early for kids soccer game, etc). The number one thing they were happy with was that the person who would be doing the particular job would have a bachelors degree with one year of experience.
I guess you do agree that they got good quality in India. so it is not just cost but quality and youth too. I dont know if you are in s.ware ..but in software you need people with higher IQ (than people who work in grocery stores ..), preferably people who know science / commerce and maths, have to be younger when they get in s.ware etc ..also because of outsourcing I dont think younger americans are keen to get in to s.ware ..in the end I am happy that some people will go back to India because they get sick of this GC game ..this will help India in some small way !!
GCLOVER007
Registered Users (C)
Happy
Seems like every body (including Indians) is happy in sending Indians back to India. Not sure what would they get if all Indians go back?
Are we talking about any one other than India asking or suggesting to go back to their own country? Why always we are in trouble and get critized?
-GCLover007
Seems like every body (including Indians) is happy in sending Indians back to India. Not sure what would they get if all Indians go back?
Are we talking about any one other than India asking or suggesting to go back to their own country? Why always we are in trouble and get critized?
-GCLover007
Don't take that personally. Like it or not, we need to get someone to blame. (I bet, it happens in your daily life too).GCLOVER007 said:
Just like Chinese, we made most of the merchandise in the world and blamed to providing cheap labor and costing jobs loss in US.
I can't imagine if we pulled out all Chinese Made merchandise, then you will not celebrate any of your holidays..
Take it easy, my friend!
indian_gc_ocean
Registered Users (C)
In some of my recent posting may be I would have implied that. But this is my point once more, this country is not for anyone who are willing to do average jobs for the sake of greencard and passtime(actually waste number of career years). It is a well known fact that majority of IT H1s get to do average jobs because we cannot afford the risk trying for a growth oriented job. Even if somehow one manages to hang on and get the greencard, life will be miserable after that after wasting so many years in a non-growth oriented jobs.GCLOVER007 said:
Companies have learnt to get such average IT work from outsourcing at the same cost. In a EB immigration we should understand that nothing will move unless employers don't lobby for immigration. Employers are all happy with the kind of work they are getting from India for the money they are paying. Look at the money these big companies are spending on building buildings and setting up other fecilities in India. Wakeup if anyone is in IT with greencard in process, it is time to look back at India as an alternative destination once you have made decent money.
mariner555
Registered Users (C)
it is not a question of I am happy or not. one of my friends (IITian and extremely brilliant) is going back. he is taking the job with him. now if you think logically ..he will be paying taxes to indian govt, uses services in india, train more indians in his job place. (ofcourse this is on a minute scale ..but then this years nobel prize winner started the gramean bank on a small scale)GCLOVER007 said:
ofcourse one of the reason I stated this is ..my GC is going no where ..I am in EB3 ..so I am mentally preparing to go back too and come back after few years.
in the end ..only if lawyers and other businesses lobby, immigration reforms will pass (and there is nothing people like us can do ..)
No doubt ..
UN,
For a while now there has been no doubt that there are a lot of 245is stuck in the BECs. According to this report, they are still stuck. The only thing I am having a hard time understading is the extreme retrogression that began in Oct '05. If a lot of the cases are still stuck in the BEC, then where is the backlog currently? It is a well known fact that the BECs have only recently started approving cases so very few came out last year, also a majority of the 245is are still stuck in the BECs (AILA report). So what exactly affected the dates last year if most of the backlog is still in the BECs? It is also a well known fact that the BECs have no stats on the nationality of the applicants so how can the retro ever be accurate.
All this only lends credibility to my theory that the extreme retro placed in Oct '05 was based in anticipation of all these cases that will now flood the system.
Anyway, I agree that it will get worse before it gets better. Only a change in the law is the solution at this point.
regards,
saras
unitednations said:
UN,
For a while now there has been no doubt that there are a lot of 245is stuck in the BECs. According to this report, they are still stuck. The only thing I am having a hard time understading is the extreme retrogression that began in Oct '05. If a lot of the cases are still stuck in the BEC, then where is the backlog currently? It is a well known fact that the BECs have only recently started approving cases so very few came out last year, also a majority of the 245is are still stuck in the BECs (AILA report). So what exactly affected the dates last year if most of the backlog is still in the BECs? It is also a well known fact that the BECs have no stats on the nationality of the applicants so how can the retro ever be accurate.
All this only lends credibility to my theory that the extreme retro placed in Oct '05 was based in anticipation of all these cases that will now flood the system.
Anyway, I agree that it will get worse before it gets better. Only a change in the law is the solution at this point.
regards,
saras
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UN/other peopleunitednations said:
i dont why then USCIS posted last month that they are approving cases which filed in late 2002 and early 2003
i saw this news in murthy.com, they mentioned that lot of their clients who applied Labors in 2002 and 2003 are getting approvals
so where these 245(i) cases are there if BEC centers approving 2002 and 2003 cases
is something fishy going on ?????
no one really knows about these things even USCIS or DOL or anyone
its all screwed like them
one person i know came to US in 2002 and got 1998 EB3 sub-labor in june 2005 and got GC in 3 months, here how can USCIS approve GC even the person is not when this labor filed in 1998
one person is still waiting for 485 approval , came here to US in 1997, applied EB3 in Dec 2001. very bad to him