Mine is a remanded case with PD 7/2001. In March 2005, it was converted back to RIR. But so far, no progress on it. Online case status still shows "PROCESS". I think this is just a way for BEC to miss the Sept 2007 deadline without processing all the cases. Whoever does not convert will remain in the bec queue for a long, long time!
Non RIR Discussion Only !
- Thread starter vpb
- Start date
How long does it take for the conversion itself? I also know that many cases in my company are being converted but few succeeded. Most are still pending to be converted.
My PD is Oct. 2001. So I can only convert if they publish the new guidelines tomorrow. I still wish to convert. Non-RIR just seems to be a black hole. Very few people got out of it.
My PD is Oct. 2001. So I can only convert if they publish the new guidelines tomorrow. I still wish to convert. Non-RIR just seems to be a black hole. Very few people got out of it.
jay1971 said:
so_depressed,so_depressed said:
I dont know what your idea of RIR is. But as far as i know you have to go thru this crap no matter what. You will have to post ads/ interview/report. Now why would you do that ?. So that you are one step ahead. You will not wait for BEC to send you the recruitment instructions and get thru that step. So when BEC gets to your application they just have to go thru the report and adjudicate the case.
But then if you have to follow the current RIR procedures it will be six months before you can submit anyways. So what is the point in converting ?. The rules are not clear as to how many ADs need to be posted , where will they be posted etc. Those rules have not been provided yet. Unless they clear all these questions it does not make sense for me atleast. Just my opinion.
From federal register
You can also access the below information by clicking on
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20061800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/E6-16543.htm
********************************************************
SUMMARY: This Notice provides information regarding Foreign Labor
Certification: Reduction-in-Recruitment (RIR) Conversion; Extension of
the RIR Eligibility Date, and Amendments to General Administration
Letter No. 2-02. It is directed to the Office of Foreign Labor
Certification (OFLC) National Processing Center Directors, OFLC-Backlog
Elimination Center Directors, and State Workforce Agency Directors
(Prevailing Wage). The purpose of this Notice is to extend the
eligibility date the Department of Labor (Department) uses for
determining whether RIR re-application requests are timely.
SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:
I. References
20 CFR 656.21 (2001); 69 FR 43716 (July 21, 2004); 66 FR 40584
(Aug. 3. 2001); General Administration Letter (GAL) No. 07-97; GAL No.
2-02 Attachment B; and Training and Employment Notice (TEN) No. 12-05.
II. Background
Under regulations governing the Permanent Labor Certification
Program in effect prior to March 28, 2005, the Department processed
most employer applications for permanent certification under a
``Traditional Recruitment'' (TR) standard. Under this process,
employers seeking to test their local labor markets for available,
qualified United States workers were supervised in their recruitment
activities.
The TR process often took extensive time to complete and
contributed to the growing number of backlog cases. Therefore, the
Department began to encourage employers to utilize the streamlined
``Reduction-in-Recruitment'' (RIR) process. On August 3, 2001, the
Department published a final rule at 66 FR 40584 establishing a process
for converting TR labor certification applications into RIR
applications for the permanent employment of aliens in the United
States. This regulation amended 20 CFR 656.21(i)(6) and included a
provision allowing employers to convert TR cases they filed on or
before August 3, 2001, to RIR applications, at their option.
The Department has found the RIR application processing time takes
significantly less time than the TR application processing time. The TR
processing time delays the filing process for employers because they
may be required to wait for up to nine months or longer to receive a
resolution (denial or certification) of their case. Accordingly, the
Department has encouraged employers to use the RIR process to expedite
the labor certification filing process. Such conversions allow an
employer to complete its recruitment prior to filing a permanent labor
certification application, thus shortening the time potentially
required to reach a determination in any given case.
The Department initiated the RIR process via non-regulatory
guidance in General Administration Letter (GAL) 1-97. Subsequent to the
publication of the final RIR conversion rule in 2001, the Department
issued additional, updated guidance to advise on and encourage use of
the process through GAL No. 2-02, which originally expired on November
30, 2004. Later, the Department extended the expiration date for GAL
No. 2-02 through December 31, 2006 in TEN No. 12-05. Neither of these
later guidance documents extended the original August 3, 2001, deadline
for conversion to RIR procedures in the final rule.
On July 21, 2004, the Department published an Interim Final Rule at
69 FR 43716 (effective August 20, 2004) granting the Employment and
Training Administration's (ETA) Division of Foreign Labor Certification
(now the Office of Foreign Labor Certification) the discretion to
transfer permanent labor certification applications pending in state
workforce agencies and ETA regional offices to centralized Backlog
Elimination Centers (BECs) for processing. ETA opened the BECs in
October 2004. The Department's goal is to have all backlogged permanent
labor certification applications eliminated by September 30, 2007.
In December 2004, the Department amended 20 CFR part 656 again
through 69 FR 77386 (Dec. 27, 2004). This regulatory amendment had the
affect of removing the RIR conversion date in the current Code of
Federal Regulations, but did not affect the processing of cases filed
prior to March 28, 2005. For those purposes, the previous regulation
remains in effect.
III. Policy Guidance
To further assist its backlog elimination goal, the Department has
determined the RIR conversion date at section 656.21(i)(6) of the
previous regulation should be extended. Given the extensive backlog of
older cases, which remains even with the implementation of a
streamlined labor certification process, the Department has determined
that it would be contrary to the public interest to delay
implementation of this change and to withhold this benefit from
applications filed under the regulation in effect prior to March 28,
2005.
By announcement of this Notice in the Federal Register, the
Department is allowing employers that filed their applications before
the removal of 20 CFR 656.21(i)(6) to process their applications under
the RIR process with the exception of those cases that are already
being processed under 20 CFR 656.21(f)(1) of the basic labor
certification process. As a result, GAL No. 2-02 will remain in effect
for RIR conversion purposes for applications filed on or before March
27, 2005. Further, the Department will process RIR conversions using
the same process it currently uses in the backlog centers.
IV. Action Required
Effective on October 6, 2006, Backlog Elimination Center Directors
are required to:
A. Provide this guidance to appropriate staff.
B. Apply these procedures for handling employer requests to convert
TR applications received by state workforce agencies on or before March
27, 2005, to RIR applications unless the exception described in
paragraph 4(C) below applies.
C. Exception: These procedures do not apply to any traditional
recruitment cases that are already being processed under 20 CFR
656.21(f)(1) of the basic labor certification process and which
recruitment (i.e. a job order) has been initiated by the BEC.
V. Inquiries
Inquiries related to the implementation of this guidance should be
directed to the appropriate Backlog Elimination Center in Philadelphia
at (484) 270-1500 or Dallas at (214) 237-9111.
***************************************************
You can also access the below information by clicking on
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20061800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/E6-16543.htm
********************************************************
SUMMARY: This Notice provides information regarding Foreign Labor
Certification: Reduction-in-Recruitment (RIR) Conversion; Extension of
the RIR Eligibility Date, and Amendments to General Administration
Letter No. 2-02. It is directed to the Office of Foreign Labor
Certification (OFLC) National Processing Center Directors, OFLC-Backlog
Elimination Center Directors, and State Workforce Agency Directors
(Prevailing Wage). The purpose of this Notice is to extend the
eligibility date the Department of Labor (Department) uses for
determining whether RIR re-application requests are timely.
SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:
I. References
20 CFR 656.21 (2001); 69 FR 43716 (July 21, 2004); 66 FR 40584
(Aug. 3. 2001); General Administration Letter (GAL) No. 07-97; GAL No.
2-02 Attachment B; and Training and Employment Notice (TEN) No. 12-05.
II. Background
Under regulations governing the Permanent Labor Certification
Program in effect prior to March 28, 2005, the Department processed
most employer applications for permanent certification under a
``Traditional Recruitment'' (TR) standard. Under this process,
employers seeking to test their local labor markets for available,
qualified United States workers were supervised in their recruitment
activities.
The TR process often took extensive time to complete and
contributed to the growing number of backlog cases. Therefore, the
Department began to encourage employers to utilize the streamlined
``Reduction-in-Recruitment'' (RIR) process. On August 3, 2001, the
Department published a final rule at 66 FR 40584 establishing a process
for converting TR labor certification applications into RIR
applications for the permanent employment of aliens in the United
States. This regulation amended 20 CFR 656.21(i)(6) and included a
provision allowing employers to convert TR cases they filed on or
before August 3, 2001, to RIR applications, at their option.
The Department has found the RIR application processing time takes
significantly less time than the TR application processing time. The TR
processing time delays the filing process for employers because they
may be required to wait for up to nine months or longer to receive a
resolution (denial or certification) of their case. Accordingly, the
Department has encouraged employers to use the RIR process to expedite
the labor certification filing process. Such conversions allow an
employer to complete its recruitment prior to filing a permanent labor
certification application, thus shortening the time potentially
required to reach a determination in any given case.
The Department initiated the RIR process via non-regulatory
guidance in General Administration Letter (GAL) 1-97. Subsequent to the
publication of the final RIR conversion rule in 2001, the Department
issued additional, updated guidance to advise on and encourage use of
the process through GAL No. 2-02, which originally expired on November
30, 2004. Later, the Department extended the expiration date for GAL
No. 2-02 through December 31, 2006 in TEN No. 12-05. Neither of these
later guidance documents extended the original August 3, 2001, deadline
for conversion to RIR procedures in the final rule.
On July 21, 2004, the Department published an Interim Final Rule at
69 FR 43716 (effective August 20, 2004) granting the Employment and
Training Administration's (ETA) Division of Foreign Labor Certification
(now the Office of Foreign Labor Certification) the discretion to
transfer permanent labor certification applications pending in state
workforce agencies and ETA regional offices to centralized Backlog
Elimination Centers (BECs) for processing. ETA opened the BECs in
October 2004. The Department's goal is to have all backlogged permanent
labor certification applications eliminated by September 30, 2007.
In December 2004, the Department amended 20 CFR part 656 again
through 69 FR 77386 (Dec. 27, 2004). This regulatory amendment had the
affect of removing the RIR conversion date in the current Code of
Federal Regulations, but did not affect the processing of cases filed
prior to March 28, 2005. For those purposes, the previous regulation
remains in effect.
III. Policy Guidance
To further assist its backlog elimination goal, the Department has
determined the RIR conversion date at section 656.21(i)(6) of the
previous regulation should be extended. Given the extensive backlog of
older cases, which remains even with the implementation of a
streamlined labor certification process, the Department has determined
that it would be contrary to the public interest to delay
implementation of this change and to withhold this benefit from
applications filed under the regulation in effect prior to March 28,
2005.
By announcement of this Notice in the Federal Register, the
Department is allowing employers that filed their applications before
the removal of 20 CFR 656.21(i)(6) to process their applications under
the RIR process with the exception of those cases that are already
being processed under 20 CFR 656.21(f)(1) of the basic labor
certification process. As a result, GAL No. 2-02 will remain in effect
for RIR conversion purposes for applications filed on or before March
27, 2005. Further, the Department will process RIR conversions using
the same process it currently uses in the backlog centers.
IV. Action Required
Effective on October 6, 2006, Backlog Elimination Center Directors
are required to:
A. Provide this guidance to appropriate staff.
B. Apply these procedures for handling employer requests to convert
TR applications received by state workforce agencies on or before March
27, 2005, to RIR applications unless the exception described in
paragraph 4(C) below applies.
C. Exception: These procedures do not apply to any traditional
recruitment cases that are already being processed under 20 CFR
656.21(f)(1) of the basic labor certification process and which
recruitment (i.e. a job order) has been initiated by the BEC.
V. Inquiries
Inquiries related to the implementation of this guidance should be
directed to the appropriate Backlog Elimination Center in Philadelphia
at (484) 270-1500 or Dallas at (214) 237-9111.
***************************************************
epidural,
For RIR i beleive you can use the ADs that you are doing for other jobs for similar positions in your company as a proof. Also supervised recruitment is different from the company placing ADs on thier own. If there is an option it is better to go by RIR conversion than going by supervised recruitment.
For RIR i beleive you can use the ADs that you are doing for other jobs for similar positions in your company as a proof. Also supervised recruitment is different from the company placing ADs on thier own. If there is an option it is better to go by RIR conversion than going by supervised recruitment.
so_depressed
Registered Users (C)
I agree that you have your point. For your PD it's hard to say which way would be faster.
My opinion is that if BEC sets this new date for conversion, the only reason is to make the whole process faster. It could be nothing else. So it cannot hurt to convert. The worst case would be not much faster, like your case, but still probably faster.
By the way, I do not believe it needs another 6 months to submit conversion of RIR. I know the details not available yet but that does not make any sense for the purpose of speeding up the elimination.
Just my 2 cents.
My opinion is that if BEC sets this new date for conversion, the only reason is to make the whole process faster. It could be nothing else. So it cannot hurt to convert. The worst case would be not much faster, like your case, but still probably faster.
By the way, I do not believe it needs another 6 months to submit conversion of RIR. I know the details not available yet but that does not make any sense for the purpose of speeding up the elimination.
Just my 2 cents.
epidural said:
Lawyers !*@
I just sent the link to our lawyers and I get a response saying ...it doesn;t change anything and it some kind of technical extension and that I have read the whole thing wrong....
I dont know how these guys get to be lawyers and are able to get by with so little understanding of the law and dare I say written english....
just pissed me off
I just sent the link to our lawyers and I get a response saying ...it doesn;t change anything and it some kind of technical extension and that I have read the whole thing wrong....
I dont know how these guys get to be lawyers and are able to get by with so little understanding of the law and dare I say written english....
just pissed me off
so_depressed
Registered Users (C)
Could you have any more details for those conversions but still pending? None of them got certified after conversion?
bpc2001 said:
jack_b_uta
Registered Users (C)
Lawyers
I asked my lawyer about the is and his reply was "If we convert to RIR we wont be able to retain the priority date". Is this true or bull
JACK
I asked my lawyer about the is and his reply was "If we convert to RIR we wont be able to retain the priority date". Is this true or bull
JACK
fastergcwanted
Registered Users (C)
I started this poll regarding the new RIR Conversion regulation. Please post your experience so we can see the overall trend:
http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?t=227508
http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?t=227508
so_depressed said:
None of the 2001 cases that were converted to March 2005 back to RIR have been approved in my company. I know my screen shot taken 1 yr ago used to show as TR. The crap thing is our conversion was done in the SWA but BEC does not appear to have updated in their database. Now all the pending non-RIR cases will get converted to RIR (since BEC appears to do a job a lot more efficient). And we will be stuck in some shit queue again!
bharatpremi
Registered Users (C)
so_depressed said:
From bottom of my heart I wish your wish come true but it is too early to say anything on this. Once lawyers start preaching about the involved process then we will become more clear. I am waiting for Ms Murthy's article on this eagerly.
bharatpremi
Registered Users (C)
jay1971 said:
Or it could be other way around. BEC will tell for example look we had 176000 cases pending (Most of TR and some RIR) on 10/05/06. Now Out of 176000, 100000 have decided to convert to RIR so it would be anew Queue on which technically they will start to work in October/November'2006. Now remaiing 76000 cases they will finish processing by Sept 2007. And "newly" converted RIR will start to wait from November 2006 till the time god knows only.
Let's wait for more input from Rajiv Khanna, Murthy and other lawyers. It is too early to say anything. But with all experiences we have with BECs uptill now this does not seem to be good.. We should carefully take decision.
bharatpremi
Registered Users (C)
epidural said:
Perfect legal analysis on the basis of what information what we have on hand. Let us wait for more information on this damn game.
What I meant is that the conversion request were submitted. But then no response from BEC for a long time. Sure they were not certified. People don't even know whether the conversion itself succeeded or not. Logically it has two phases:
1. convert from TR to RIR
2. RIR waiting to be approved.
I mean even the first step does not happen for them. No one knows how BEC works but it's like that they work on this task for a while, then probably other tasks. There is no consistency. We may see massive approvals tomorrow for these cases, who knows.
1. convert from TR to RIR
2. RIR waiting to be approved.
I mean even the first step does not happen for them. No one knows how BEC works but it's like that they work on this task for a while, then probably other tasks. There is no consistency. We may see massive approvals tomorrow for these cases, who knows.
so_depressed said:
GCkiTalash
Registered Users (C)
TR to RIR Conversion FAQ from DOL
http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/pdf/backlog_faqs_10-06-06.pdf
http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/pdf/backlog_faqs_10-06-06.pdf
GCkiTalash said:
Thanks for posting the FAQ. From here it is clear BEC will send a conversion confirmation mail, but all the pre-Aug 2001 cases did not seem to have received any conversion confirmation mail. What happens to those cases. Just frustrating to get stuck in one queue after another.