India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)

[boggavarapu]

I emailed the embassy to ask for the Reference number/ File number so that I can check the status of my application online. As usual no answer. These guys have no decency to even reply to emails. I tried calling him and his mail box is full. Asked the reception if he can be paged; no such facility exists. So I asked her if I can leave my number and she noted the number. As usual no reply; asked for the consulate general. He is not in; give me a break at 10am he is not in. Are these guys still in India? I am scratching my head and thinking hard what I should do next..any ideas?

Not much more you can do!! I have similar experiences.

I don't think I will ever do any investment in India. Who wants to do that when they behave like this? The only reason I would still like to have OCI is because of the close family ties back home. Also, I may want to purchase a house in India on some day! That is all ! Nothing more - I learnt my lesson

 

[mangal969]

I think we all have learned our lesson about the Indian bureaucracy in all it's glory.We would shake our heads in disbelief when he hear stories of corruption and apathy from our family members back home,most of the time thinking it's just an exaggeration.

I too am very doubtful about putting much money in India (there isnt much to put anyway) like boggavarapu.I too will be taking OCI just for the convinience of visiting family and being able to go in a moments notice in case of a family emergency.Maybe when we have more dynamic politicans and bureaucrats i'll reconsider.

 

[PIO1]

I emailed the embassy to ask for the Reference number/ File number so that I can check the status of my application online. As usual no answer. These guys have no decency to even reply to emails. I tried calling him and his mail box is full. Asked the reception if he can be paged; no such facility exists. So I asked her if I can leave my number and she noted the number. As usual no reply; asked for the consulate general. He is not in; give me a break at 10am he is not in. Are these guys still in India? I am scratching my head and thinking hard what I should do next..any ideas?

Welcome to the world of a grass roots agitator. If you do not get an answer, take it up (cc) with the High Commissioner or Ambassador, and keep escalating. Send a physical letter - that normally does the trick.

 

[PIO1]

I think we all have learned our lesson about the Indian bureaucracy in all it's glory.We would shake our heads in disbelief when he hear stories of corruption and apathy from our family members back home,most of the time thinking it's just an exaggeration.

I too am very doubtful about putting much money in India (there isnt much to put anyway) like boggavarapu.I too will be taking OCI just for the convinience of visiting family and being able to go in a moments notice in case of a family emergency.Maybe when we have more dynamic politicans and bureaucrats i'll reconsider.

All of us, I think have made some impact. Even if someone takes note of 1 of our 100 letters. You will see the Canadian OCI cost come down, I think. The use of the term "Dual Citizenship" has reduced somewhat I think also. But more than this, we have not let them get away from this untouched. I have got replies to some letters, and my consulate was one of the first to get OCI operational perhaps due to some of our letters.

Others will benefit from our work so keep it up, and don't lose hope. Corruption in India continues because out of 1000, not one will speak up. Let's be that one who speaks up - we have nothing to lose!

 

[PIO1]

Finland and South Africa are accepting applications ...

Canadians, just be glad you are not in South Africa!

OCI(PIO Upgrade)

Australia US$297($27)
Canada US$366($35)
Euro US$278(27)
New Zealand US$297($28)
Saudi Arabia US$279($26)
South Africa US$517($46)
UAE US$275($27)
US US$275($25)

 

[qwert97]

Finland and South Africa are accepting applications ...

Canadians, just be glad you are not in South Africa!

OCI(PIO Upgrade)

Australia US$297($27)
Canada US$366($35)
Euro US$278(27)
New Zealand US$297($28)
Saudi Arabia US$279($26)
South Africa US$517($46)
UAE US$275($27)
US US$275($25)

I think South African embassy has broken all records since they are charging just about twice the amount. Is there a word called 'public accountability' in their dictionary?

 

[mangal969]

Do you notice that all the relatively smaller embassies are starting to accept OIC but the bigger ones like US Canada UK which have a huge contingency of staff havent even updated their websites ?

 

[go_cp]

Global Indian
Gets a new place at home

The launching of the Overseas Citizenship scheme has not come a day too soon and would be welcomed by the large Indian diaspora spread across the world. It is only natural that the Indian abroad would want to identify with the country of his origin; and feel that he belongs in a distinctive way. The Overseas Citizenship of India (OCI) scheme would go a long way towards meeting much more than the emotional yearning for greater affinity with the ‘homeland’. The OCI offers tangible privileges and benefits that exceed those under the Persons of Indian Origin (PIO) scheme. The fundamental difference is that the OCI has its basis in the Citizenship Act, which has been specifically amended for this purpose.

The OCI may not get an Indian passport, but the next best thing: a lifetime, multipurpose, multi-entry visa that is incorporated in his foreign passport; and a registration certificate resembling an Indian passport but in a different colour. The OCI can stay in India for any length of time and would not be required to register with the foreigners’ office. All that the OCI would not be entitled to is citizenship rights such as right to vote and seek elected office. This would hardly matter to the enterprising Punjabis, Gujaratis, Keralites and the other communities of the Indian diaspora that have moved to greener pastures and done so well in foreign lands.

Having achieved much, many of them are now looking to do things for and in India. For this they need to be encouraged and that is what the OCI is expected to do. The OCI is superior to the PIO, qualitatively different and with more long-lasting advantages. Therefore, few non-resident Indians are likely to complain about the fee for this scheme being higher than that prescribed for the PIO registration. The OCI strengthens the bond between India and its children abroad.

From http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20051205/edit.htm


The OCI offers tangible privileges and benefits that exceed those under the Persons of Indian Origin (PIO) scheme. The fundamental difference is that the OCI has its basis in the Citizenship Act, which has been specifically amended for this purpose. - Is this why they call at as a dual citizenship because it has its basis in the citizenship act?

 

[PIO1]

The OCI offers tangible privileges and benefits that exceed those under the Persons of Indian Origin (PIO) scheme. The fundamental difference is that the OCI has its basis in the Citizenship Act, which has been specifically amended for this purpose. - Is this why they call at as a dual citizenship because it has its basis in the citizenship act?

Thanks for pointing this out go_cp - worth discussing. Here is my take:

It makes no difference whether they call this OCI or XYZ. It makes no difference whether they put this in the Citizenship Act or in the Sports and Recreation Act.

Why? Because the constitution defines citizenship, and does not create two classes. AND it is very clear. Article 9 revokes all and any citizenship rights for someone who has voluntarily acquired foreign citizenship. Unless you change the constitution, they can dance, have elaborate PBD ceremonies, call this anything, pass ANY legislation in ANY act, release press statements, but the fact is - there is no dual citizenship. End of story. The constitution is king.

Not one supreme court judge would ever consider OCI to be any form of citizenship under the constitution. In fact there is an argument that OCI may in fact be unconstitutional, or at least the use of the terms "dual citizenship" is.

It really can't be any simpler than this. OCI is a nice visa, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[mangal969]

The launching of the Overseas Citizenship scheme has not come a day too soon and would be welcomed by the large Indian diaspora spread across the world

He uses the word "launching"-Does he know something we do not ????

 

[PIO1]

The launching of the Overseas Citizenship scheme has not come a day too soon and would be welcomed by the large Indian diaspora spread across the world

He uses the word "launching"-Does he know something we do not ????

I thought they launch this every week, if you include all the dates we have seen, and how each consulate has its own "launch" and de-launch ...

Anyway what I like about this article is that at least he is not saying it is dual citizenship.

 

[go_cp]

Thanks for pointing this out go_cp - worth discussing. Here is my take:

It makes no difference whether they call this OCI or XYZ. It makes no difference whether they put this in the Citizenship Act or in the Sports and Recreation Act.

Why? Because the constitution defines citizenship, and does not create two classes. AND it is very clear. Article 9 revokes all and any citizenship rights for someone who has voluntarily acquired foreign citizenship. Unless you change the constitution, they can dance, have elaborate PBD ceremonies, call this anything, pass ANY legislation in ANY act, release press statements, but the fact is - there is no dual citizenship. End of story. The constitution is king.
Not one supreme court judge would ever consider OCI to be any form of citizenship under the constitution. In fact there is an argument that OCI may in fact be unconstitutional, or at least the use of the terms "dual citizenship" is.

It really can't be any simpler than this. OCI is a nice visa, nothing more, nothing less.

Article 11 of the constitution gives power to the Parliment to enact laws in the matters of citizenship. The Citizenship Act of 1955 and the amendments to the Citizenship Act, I think, piggybacked on the article 11. Here is the except of article 11:

"11. Parliament to regulate the right of citizenship by law.—Nothing in the foregoing provisions of this Part shall derogate from the power of Parliament to make any provision with respect to the acquisition and termination of citizenship and all other matters relating to citizenship."

 

[PIO1]

Article 11 of the constitution gives power to the Parliment to enact laws in the matters of citizenship. The Citizenship Act of 1955 and the amendments to the Citizenship Act, I think, piggybacked on the article 11. Here is the except of article 11:

"11. Parliament to regulate the right of citizenship by law.—Nothing in the foregoing provisions of this Part shall derogate from the power of Parliament to make any provision with respect to the acquisition and termination of citizenship and all other matters relating to citizenship."

Thanks go_cp - this is the sort of debate we need!

Article 11 is read that laws may be passed regarding the detailed mechanisms of acquistion and termination and other technical matters of citizenship not covered by the Constitution (hence Citizenship Act). Current thinking is that it can not contradict the constitution though. This is confirmed by the introduction from MHA to OCI which confirms the constitution does not allow Dual Citizenship. Overseas Citizenship of India is a separate section and is not Citizenship. The section actually removes some rights of citizenship (vote, public post, ownership, etc).

Article 11 was actually our hope, and was raised by hotdiggety a few times including post #611. However in post #633 I looked into something mangal brought up from wikpedia. In a Judgement from 1962, a Constitution Bench of the Supreme Court of India in the case of Izhar Ahmad Khan Vs. Union of India looked at Articles 9 & 11 http://judis.nic.in/supremecourt/qrydisp.asp?tfnm=3963.

Anyway I am not an expert on constitution or law, but OCI is not framed as citizenship, and it can not create a second class of citizenship without constitutional authority...

 

[PIO1]

[I should say mangal brought up article 11 I think, and many participated ...]

Look, there are lots of question marks around the whole thing that need to be clarified. UK Home Ministry and Netherlands Indian Embassy think OCI is nationality - MHA says it isn't, the PM says it is, the US is not sure, intelligent people and a solicitor I have spoken to says it is not, but the media reports it is sometimes. To top the whole thing off there is the loophole around non-voluntary acquisition - so the thing is really a mess.

So there are two ways out, either the Govt should clear the whole thing up in law, or let's ask the Supreme Court? Anyone up for a trip to New Delhi?

 

[basis]

Count me in .....

 

[PIO1]

Count me in .....

Great ... now I need to wait for my solicitor friend to get back to me... or find another one. If anyone has a good contact, let me know.

So option 1: Lets ask the Govt to fix it up in law. No chance

option 2: Lets pay a top supreme court law firm to provide legal opinion.

option 3: Lets take the case to court.

The Supreme Court, like the US one, and UK equivalent only hears cases if someone is rotting in jail or it is an important political case... otherwise you could be waiting years. Also you need to go to a lower court (which will not tend to go against the govt interpretation) first, and then appeal. The process could take years.

Here are some scenarios that don't involve one of us in jail:

A) As OCIs, we take a case asking for a right of citizenship, such as voting or job or agricultural land, claiming OCI is citizenship, and the revokation of rights is unconstitutional.

B) A Citizen claims that the OCI act is unconstitutional because an OCI has taken a place normally reserved for an NRI or acquired propery.

C) We get Overseas Citizenship, and we put up a civil case for false representation of OCI as dual citizenship.

 

[basis]

As you said we need a legal expert to tell us which is the best chance scenario for us. Basic assumption behind A, B and C is that OCI actually becomes operational.

 

[mangal969]

Options A & B are not feasable because the citizenship act mentions that OCI's do not have rights for voting,agricultural land and government jobs.It also mentions that we do have rights equivalent to an NRI and to acquire property.Trying to fiddle with those ould mess up the whole act as far as OCI's are concerned.
Option C-Well i dont know how far we can go given that the actual act has no mention of the word "Dual citizenship" in letter or spirit.

 

[PIO1]

Options A & B are not feasable because the citizenship act mentions that OCI's do not have rights for voting,agricultural land and government jobs.It also mentions that we do have rights equivalent to an NRI and to acquire property.Trying to fiddle with those ould mess up the whole act as far as OCI's are concerned.
Option C-Well i dont know how far we can go given that the actual act has no mention of the word "Dual citizenship" in letter or spirit.

We are trying to get the courts to decide first whether OCI is citizenship or not. In both cases there are inconsistencies that need to be resolved, and in both cases different parts of OCI may be unconstitutional. Any action could mess up the whole thing, yes, but we would rather have it resolved now, then, say in 10 years when one of us actually makes something out of OCI and gets into trouble from someone else. (For example, a relative complaining about an asset transfer, or a competitor complaining about a rich OCI's ownership of property normally reserved for citizens).

If OCI is a form of citizenship then most of the OCI section is valid, except the bit where a citizen (OCI) is being disenfranchised etc, which is unconstitutional - hence option A.

On the other hand, if OCI is not a form of citizenship, then the granting of certain rights normally reserved for citizens is either illegal or unconstitutional, and section 9.1 below - hence option B, the antithesis of (A)

Option C was really saying that the PM and Govt departmentments can not lie, and the use of the term "Dual Citizenship" (which is documented) by them is negligent, and has caused damage. The central question that will be resolved by this is the true status of OCI. OCI is being associated with citizenship in legislation via three means. First it is a part of the "Citizenship Act". Second the "C" in OCI. Third the section 9.1 of the Act (2003 Amendment) specifically allows continuation of full Indian citizenship.

"Provided further that after the commencement of the Citizenship Amendment) Act, 2003, any citizen of India who voluntarily acquires the citizenship of a specified country shall not cease to be a citizen of India, if within six months thereof he makes an application for registration as an overseas citizen of India under sub-section (1) of section 7A, until such application is disposed of by the Central Government."

This section allows Indian citizenship with voluntary acquisiton of foreign citizenship and is in direct conflict with Article 9 of the constitution albeit for 6 months.

 

[mangal969]

What you are quoting is the 2003 amendment.It doesnt exist in the 2005 amendment as far as i know.