India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)

[Hotdiggety]

Kindly refer to your e-mail dated 16th December regarding the OCI fee as it is shown on the website of HCI, Ottawa. The unduly confrontationist tone of the e-mail has not only surprised us but it also based on false presumptions. This is to inform you that the exchange rate for the fees to be charged for the OCI scheme, which is the same as is being currently used by our consular missions for other consular services, and that these rates are specified by the Government of India from time to time and conveyed to the respective missions abroad. Thus any notion you might have that there is any arbitrariness on the part of our Missions in Canada in this regard is unwarranted. Of course, if the Government of India revises the exchange rate in the future, we will at once incorporate these changes in the fee we will be charging for the OCI scheme and will notify it on our website. R.R.P.N. Sahi Minister

What he's saying is that not only are they going to discriminate against Canadian citizens on the OCI fee, they're already discriminating against us on all other consular fees, which those ridiculous exchange-rates are also being applied to. Otherwise, he's just passing the buck. He figures he's not the thief, and we should take it up with the other thieves, who're sitting in India.

 

[mangal969]

Maybe you should check the other service rates vis a vis say the rates a US embassy charges for the same service and then present it to Mr R.R.P.N Sahi and then ask for an explanation

 

[PIO1]

Maybe you should check the other service rates vis a vis say the rates a US embassy charges for the same service and then present it to Mr R.R.P.N Sahi and then ask for an explanation

You know, I do feel sorry for the consulates. I got a nice reply from mine, and I got the feeling that they are trying their best, but perhaps the whole OCI thing is way over their heads. Consulate people are small players and have little influence, if they complain, they probably fear they may lose their post.

Dual Citizenship has been too difficult to implement from a legislative point of view (it requires a constitutional amendment) as well as a central govt and consulate process point of view. Well done hornplease for getting the issue across, but lets focus our attention on the Ministers and PM for not providing the support to implement a efficient and fair system, and for not allowing full dual citizenship.

 

[basis]

High commission in London is simply the best. They have just put a link to MHA website. If you ask them anything they tell we don't know anything about it - haven't seen, haven't heard and wouldn't talk of any such thing as OCI. Great .....Gandhi's three monkeys.

None of those guys (like most of us) seem to believe that anything has changed. hcilondon.net

We need to put pressure during the PBD - I may be in Hyderabad during that time and see whether I can attend and if yes can we grab attention of the PM and the 'crats on these. Mittals and other elite NRIs / PIOs will not bother much about the OCI and the issues surrounding it. They will get it delivered to them by the PM. It is the ordinary NRIs / PIOs like us who will be treated like dirt by the machinery nedd to take up this very strongly.

If anyone on the forum is going to attend then let's unite and think how best we can get attention from media, machinery and ministry.

 

[mangal969]

IS there any member here from the embassies that are accepting OIC applications ? How is the process going ?

 

[basis]

Beware following may make you laugh or cry loudly

Beware following may make you laugh or cry loudly or nothing may happen at all (source http://www.indemb.no/IndianEmbassy/IEpiocard.html)

PM announces dual citizenship for overseas Indians on January 07, 2004, Mumbai
While addressing the gathering of the Indian Diaspora on the first day of the third Pravasi Bhartiya Divas, at Mumbai on January 07, 2005, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh announced that Non-Resident Indians (NRIs) will now get dual citizenship. But the citizenship will be conditional to their home countries allowing it under their law.

''I am happy to announce that we are extending dual citizenship to all overseas Indians who migrated after January 26, 1950, if the home country allows it,'' said Singh in his inaugural address.

The decision to give NRIs dual citizenship means that they will have most rights that resident Indians enjoy, but not the right to vote. Till now, dual citizenship is only extended to those settled in 16 countries-Australia, Canada, Finland, France, Greece, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Netherlands, New Zealand, Portugal, Republic of Cyprus, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom and United States of America.

Norwegian law on Dual Nationality

According to Norwegian law, the Norwegian nationality is lost automatically if a person acquires the nationality of another state upon application or by express consent. Therefore, if a Norwegian national of Indian origin applies for overseas citizenship of India, such application would result in automatic loss of his Norwegian citizenship. Accordingly it does not seem that Norway can be included in the list of countries for dual citizenship in the Fourth Schedule of the citizenship Act of India.

 

[basis]

Although Overseas Citizenship of India is not a full citizenship of India, it is a form of Indian nationality. Article 4 of the Hague Convention on Certain Questions relating to the Conflict of Nationality Laws, 1930 provides that "a State may not afford diplomatic protection to one of its nationals against a state whose nationality such person also possesses". Therefore, international law limits the ability of a country to provide consular protection to its citizens or nationals in their country of second nationality. A person registered as an Overseas citizen of India, who is also a citizen of another country will therefore lose their right to consular protection of their home country when in India.

Many persons of Indian origin eligible to apply for Overseas citizenship of India are considering whether they prefer to obtain Overseas citizenship of India, or a Person of Indian Origin card (PIO card - see below) which offers virtually identical benefits while preserving their right to consular protection in India.

Citizenship clarifications issued by the Authorities


British House of Lords Written Answer on matters related to Overseas Citizenship of India

House of Lords StatementHouse of Lords, 6 July 2005, Column WA 90


Lord Avebury asked Her Majesty's Government:


Whether (a) a British subject under the British Nationality Act 1981, other than by connection to the Republic of Ireland, or (b) a British protected person, who acquires by registration Overseas Citizenship of India would automatically lose the status as a British subject or British protected person as a consequence; and [HL729]

Whether an otherwise stateless British overseas citizen, British subject (under the British Nationality Act 1981) or British protected person who acquires overseas citizenship of India would automatically cease to have an entitlement to register as a British citizen under Section 4B of the British Nationality Act 1981. [HL730]

Baroness Scotland of Asthal (Minister of State, Home Office):


If a British subject under the British Nationality Act 1981, other than by connection to the Republic of Ireland, or a British protected person, acquired Indian Overseas citizenship they would automatically lose their status as a British subject or British protected person.
Any British national holding Indian Overseas citizenship would be ineligible for registration as a British citizen {added to clarify} under Section 4B since they could not meet the requirements of Section 4B(2)(b) of the British Nationality Act 1981 to hold no other citizenship or nationality.
http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/NOTE VERBALE.pdf
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds05/text/51019w02.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_nationality_law

 

[PIO1]

The Truth

Baroness Scotland of Asthal (Minister of State, Home Office):
... Any British national holding Indian Overseas citizenship would be ineligible for registration as a British citizen ...

So a British Baroness and Minister thinks an OCI holder is a national of India. I can go one better. I can name a Prime Minister who says OCI is dual citizenship ... and I will give you 3 guesses who it is

She is quoting from the same directorate that gave us the "annex-h" you posted previously so I am not surprised - she's just reading from a prepared script from her department bureaucrats.

The British are confusing OCI with British Overseas Citizenship, similar name but completely different concepts. A British Overseas Citizen gets a passport etc, and is technically a class of citizen of Britain. When the home office did their assessment in 2003 there was talk in India about OCI passports. They were wrong then, they are wrong now.

Collins English Dictionary 1979
Nationality=1.the state or fact of being a citizen of a particular nation.

Even in common language "Nationality" is one and the same thing as "Citizenship", and am happy to sit with the Baroness to argue, quoting treaties, definitions and common sense - somehow I think she would rather listen to her own fools in the home office. All I can say is that the Brits have got this plain wrong ... but who am I? A nobody (and proud!)

Unfortunately if a Govt Department, Minister or PM says "the sky is green", good luck trying to get your point across. George Bush and Tony Blair said Iraq had WMDs. What happened to those who said it wasn't true or "Prove it"? This is information control in the 21st century. To quote Gandhi again, "Even if you are a minority of one, the Truth is the Truth."

If OCI is nationality and PIO is not, show where in the Constitution of India is this distinction drawn? Nowhere - because it has not yet been amended.

Anyway, I have written to the British home office to have this clarified, but beyond this, there is not much I can do. Some rich PIO might want to take it to court, but who could be bothered?

 

[PIO1]

IS there any member here from the embassies that are accepting OIC applications ? How is the process going ?

Haven't gone recently. I put my application in 2004. They accepted it and the payment very nicely (We were taken in to the office, rather than through the counter). The File they put the application in looked remarkably like shredder though

 

[qwert97]

Haven't gone recently. I put my application in 2004. They accepted it and the payment very nicely (We were taken in to the office, rather than through the counter). The File they put the application in looked remarkably like shredder though

You have a great sense of humour

 

[PIO1]

You have a great sense of humour

Thanks - after going through this OCI/dual citizenship fiasco, you have to laugh or cry. Either way it is just one big joke!

 

[qwert97]

Thanks - after going through this OCI/dual citizenship fiasco, you have to laugh or cry. Either way it is just one big joke!

PIO,don't forget that I am in the same boat as you..i.e. application submitted in December 2004 and no information.

I think it is about time that you should change your user name from PIO to OCI so that at least in theory you are an OCI(possibly OCI v2 or OCI2!). I doubt you will become an OCI otherwise...

 

[mangal969]

You know, I do feel sorry for the consulates. I got a nice reply from mine, and I got the feeling that they are trying their best, but perhaps the whole OCI thing is way over their heads. Consulate people are small players and have little influence, if they complain, they probably fear they may lose their post.

Dual Citizenship has been too difficult to implement from a legislative point of view (it requires a constitutional amendment) as well as a central govt and consulate process point of view. Well done hornplease for getting the issue across, but lets focus our attention on the Ministers and PM for not providing the support to implement a efficient and fair system, and for not allowing full dual citizenship.

I dont feel sorry for the consulates or their officials.It's part of their job.They havent been sent from India on a paid vacation.Our true source of information has been the MHA website.If they take the trouble of reading the same information which you and I read, they would have a much easier time implementing OCI.I wont even venture into communication between the MHA and the embassies.

They are as much responsible for OCI being a fiasco as the ministers and especially the PM who looks lost floating from one idea to the next.I'm sure lots of people like you and me have contacted the embassies re:OCI and they could have requested the MHA for instructions or just seen them on the MHA website!But they choose to remain dumb on the issue.

Basis,your article on the PM announcing "Dual Citizenship" is from PBD 2005.That is the seed speech for what is now OCI.You should probably tell the PM that he gave the speech a year ago and today you still have the application form in your hand.

 

[mangal969]

PIO,don't forget that I am in the same boat as you..i.e. application submitted in December 2004 and no information.

I think it is about time that you should change your user name from PIO to OCI so that at least in theory you are an OCI(possibly OCI v2 or OCI2!). I doubt you will become an OCI otherwise...

Actually he's kept his nick as PIO1 just to say that " I have PIO version 1!!!!"
As soon as he gets his OCI, his nick willl change to "PIO2" or "OCI1"

 

[mangal969]

Our own bureaucrats havent understood OIC completely,In fact our own PM doesnt know what OCI is to be calling "dual Citizenshp",then how can you expect anyone else in the world (like the Wikipedia researchers,British,Norwegians and Americans) to understand what OCI actually means ?

 

[mangal969]

Haven't gone recently. I put my application in 2004. They accepted it and the payment very nicely (We were taken in to the office, rather than through the counter). The File they put the application in looked remarkably like shredder though

Nice........
But i wanted to know if anyone has applied in 2005 and their experiences ??

 

[rajudm]

wait for the Pravasi Divas

It looks like bureacrats and our PM are waiting for pravasi divas, Jan 7, 2006. ON that day PM will hand over the first OCI certificate. Until that happens everyone has to wait. Or who knows until when...is it Jan first week of 2007?

Something should happen by that date.....!!!

 

[PIO1]

Actually he's kept his nick as PIO1 just to say that " I have PIO version 1!!!!"
As soon as he gets his OCI, his nick willl change to "PIO2" or "OCI1"

Hahaha thanks mangal/qwert, but we have all been variously a CoI,NRI, Foreigner, LTV Holder, PIO, DCI (according to the PM) and OCI. Throughout this I for one have been the same person! If I change my name everytime the Govt comes up with a new TLA not only would the participants be confused, but I might start to wonder about my own identity

 

[PIO1]

It looks like bureacrats and our PM are waiting for pravasi divas, Jan 7, 2006. ON that day PM will hand over the first OCI certificate. Until that happens everyone has to wait. Or who knows until when...is it Jan first week of 2007?

Question: At PBD will the PM also be sticking the U-Visa on the lucky person's passport? If not then I am afraid the OCI is not valid. And as the recipient has OCI his tourist visa/PIO would be void. Therefore, someone from CBI should arrest the recipient and deport him ASAP for not possessing a valid visa. If not the PM should be charged as an accessory after the fact.

 

[qwert97]

I emailed the embassy to ask for the Reference number/ File number so that I can check the status of my application online. As usual no answer. These guys have no decency to even reply to emails. I tried calling him and his mail box is full. Asked the reception if he can be paged; no such facility exists. So I asked her if I can leave my number and she noted the number. As usual no reply; asked for the consulate general. He is not in; give me a break at 10am he is not in. Are these guys still in India? I am scratching my head and thinking hard what I should do next..any ideas?