India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)
- Thread starter columbiaman
- Start date
My letter e-mailed to the MOIA secretary:
Sir,
Referring you to your statement posted on the MOIA website where you have mentioned a possible roll out of the OIC scheme by October.Is the Government of India and your ministry in such a state of disarray that you cannot implement one simple scheme ? If the information I have is correct, the scheme will now roll out in January 2006 and if news interviews are to be heard,it would seem that no ministry has any definite idea on what is to be done !
Also i would like to bring to your notice the discrepancies in the OIC scheme.1-2 embassies in the world are accepting forms while some embassies have absolutely no clue on what to do !What is going on ?
And finally I would like you to please clarify that OIC is NOT the same as dual citizenship.The fact that there is no oath of alligeance and a visa is required prove that OIC is not a form of dual nationality.It is more like an Indian green card.The constant reference of the OIC scheme as dual citizenship is very misleading.
Thank you
Update:The e-mail bounced ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Sir,
Referring you to your statement posted on the MOIA website where you have mentioned a possible roll out of the OIC scheme by October.Is the Government of India and your ministry in such a state of disarray that you cannot implement one simple scheme ? If the information I have is correct, the scheme will now roll out in January 2006 and if news interviews are to be heard,it would seem that no ministry has any definite idea on what is to be done !
Also i would like to bring to your notice the discrepancies in the OIC scheme.1-2 embassies in the world are accepting forms while some embassies have absolutely no clue on what to do !What is going on ?
And finally I would like you to please clarify that OIC is NOT the same as dual citizenship.The fact that there is no oath of alligeance and a visa is required prove that OIC is not a form of dual nationality.It is more like an Indian green card.The constant reference of the OIC scheme as dual citizenship is very misleading.
Thank you
Update:The e-mail bounced ! ! ! ! ! ! !
mangal969 said:
Excuse my sidetrack:
Potential loopholes that are currently not recognised:
Case (1) You were born on 1/1/2000 in country XYZ. Your father, an NRI registers you as a citizen of India, you receive your Indian passport. Country XYZ says that if your father is a Perm Resident, and you were born in XYZ you are a citizen by birth, as of 1/1/2000. Country XYZ does not care about your other citizenship. You are allowed at any time to apply for a passport for XYZ without being naturalised. I.e. you never aquired citizenship voluntarily.
Case (2) - as above you were born in India, your father is Indian, but your mother is from country XYZ. Country XYZ grants dual citizenship by descent. You can apply for a passport to XYZ at any time without being naturalised. You never aquire citizenship voluntarily.
Case (3) - (courtesy Hipka) you are Indian, born in India, you get US green card, move to US. X years later, you get US Citizenship. You get Indian PIO. You move to India for x years. You get naturalised and "renounce" US citizenship. Your US Passport is confiscated. You go to U.S. Embasy, they do not recognise your renunciation - you are still a citizen. You can apply for a US passport. Even though you surrendered US Citizenship voluntarily, it was involuntarily thrust back upon you.
PLEASE NOTE none of these are acceptable for GoI, and may contravene the citizenship act 1955, and you could find yourself in jail if you have two passports. All I am saying is that the constitution may have allowed these methods of involuntary aquisition of citizenship, and there may be a constitutional case.
This is a sidetrack from our central message which is officially there has not been and is not proposed to be any official Dual Citizenship.
Hotdiggety
Registered Users (C)
schandrag said:
Amending the Indian constitution isn't as big a deal as it seems. When most people generally agree with something, it seems to get done fairly easily. It has already been amended 92 times, often for what look like quite trivial, technical reasons. Here's a complete list:
http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/coifiles/amendment.htm
If the government truly wanted to amend the constitution to include dual citizenship, I'm pretty sure they could do it. There couldn't be very many people in India who would object to this. They seem to have actually put in more work into not giving us U visas, than they would have to just amend the constitution and be done with it.
PIO1,
I am sure there must be many situations where a person can end up having an Indian and a foreign passport.In most cases the foreign country does not care that you have an Indian passport as well.But unfortunately the government of india,in it's interpretation of the constitution does not allow you to hold an indian passport along with another.So finally you're better off having one passport.Allows for less hassle and less visa related complications.
Superho,there is nothing that is close to dual citizenship available for PIO's right now.OIC is as good as a green card (a very liberal version of it) and that is just about it(when the scheme begins).The PIO card just allows for short term visa free travel.If you are considering your options I suggest you wait.The 'facilities' offered by PIO and OIC are pretty much the same ,but OIC is valid for life and is cheaper than a PIO card.
I am sure there must be many situations where a person can end up having an Indian and a foreign passport.In most cases the foreign country does not care that you have an Indian passport as well.But unfortunately the government of india,in it's interpretation of the constitution does not allow you to hold an indian passport along with another.So finally you're better off having one passport.Allows for less hassle and less visa related complications.
Superho,there is nothing that is close to dual citizenship available for PIO's right now.OIC is as good as a green card (a very liberal version of it) and that is just about it(when the scheme begins).The PIO card just allows for short term visa free travel.If you are considering your options I suggest you wait.The 'facilities' offered by PIO and OIC are pretty much the same ,but OIC is valid for life and is cheaper than a PIO card.
A question for hipka-How can the US embassy not recognise your renounciation of US citizenship ?
The only situation where that can happen is if you havent renounced it in front of a US embassy official.
And wouldnt this situation create a problem for you if you ever wanted to visit the US ?
The only situation where that can happen is if you havent renounced it in front of a US embassy official.
And wouldnt this situation create a problem for you if you ever wanted to visit the US ?
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=119657242
This is real rubbish now.......the embassy in the west indies is going to start accepting OCI applications ! ! ! What is the Manmohan Singh government up to ?
Would i really want to invest in a country that behaves like this ?????
This is real rubbish now.......the embassy in the west indies is going to start accepting OCI applications ! ! ! What is the Manmohan Singh government up to ?
Would i really want to invest in a country that behaves like this ?????
mangal969 said:
Sorry - my point was not to suggest that anyone do this - in fact I said you should not do this because it is definately considered illegal and could lead to prison. I was simply pointing out that the Constitution may allow it in some cases (where aquisition was not voluntary) based on advice I had -and there could be a challenge if someone was willing to file a case.
Letter to editor Indian express:
Sir,
Through your esteemed newspaper I wish to demand an explanation from the hon'ble prime minister and the government of India what are they exactly up to.
As you are probably aware the OIC scheme is a burning issue with the PIO community.They have patiently waited for 3 years while the government hashed and re-hashed the scheme to it's current shape and form.The final shape was approved in August 2005 and the government seemed to be waiting for an oppurtune moment to use OIC as a means to collect political brownie points.Finally it was announced by the MOIA secretary that the scheme will be launched on November 14th.Somehow this news failed to reach around the world.The registration was started only in a handful of places like Wellington and Bahrain.In countries like the US there was no news.
On November 28/29th your newspaper published an article penned by Sudhi Ranjan Sen where it was stated that dual citizenship registration would be started in January (most probably at the PBD).On November 30th the Indian High commisioner to Trinidad and Tobago announced that his embassy will now accept applications for OIC ! What sort of nonsense is this ? Can the government of india not get such a simple act together? This is worse than the case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing !!!Does the government consider OIC and the PIO community to be a joke ?
This entire OIC episode has exposed the sheer level of incompetence that exists within the government of india.It seems a miracle that the country is still running and progressing inspite of such gross incompetence.One can only sit and wonder about India's position in the world had we had a more competent and efficient set of politicians and bureaucrats.
I hope the PM reads this,takes this as a wake up call and do something about it.I also hope he starts OIC registrations without any furthur delays.
Thank you for your time and i hope you pursue this matter and give it full justice.
Sir,
Through your esteemed newspaper I wish to demand an explanation from the hon'ble prime minister and the government of India what are they exactly up to.
As you are probably aware the OIC scheme is a burning issue with the PIO community.They have patiently waited for 3 years while the government hashed and re-hashed the scheme to it's current shape and form.The final shape was approved in August 2005 and the government seemed to be waiting for an oppurtune moment to use OIC as a means to collect political brownie points.Finally it was announced by the MOIA secretary that the scheme will be launched on November 14th.Somehow this news failed to reach around the world.The registration was started only in a handful of places like Wellington and Bahrain.In countries like the US there was no news.
On November 28/29th your newspaper published an article penned by Sudhi Ranjan Sen where it was stated that dual citizenship registration would be started in January (most probably at the PBD).On November 30th the Indian High commisioner to Trinidad and Tobago announced that his embassy will now accept applications for OIC ! What sort of nonsense is this ? Can the government of india not get such a simple act together? This is worse than the case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing !!!Does the government consider OIC and the PIO community to be a joke ?
This entire OIC episode has exposed the sheer level of incompetence that exists within the government of india.It seems a miracle that the country is still running and progressing inspite of such gross incompetence.One can only sit and wonder about India's position in the world had we had a more competent and efficient set of politicians and bureaucrats.
I hope the PM reads this,takes this as a wake up call and do something about it.I also hope he starts OIC registrations without any furthur delays.
Thank you for your time and i hope you pursue this matter and give it full justice.
This should settle the dual citizenship question once and for all (for now atleast) :
Automatic Termination of Indian citizenship
Termination is covered in Section 9 of the Citizenship Act, 1955. The provisions for termination are separate and distinct from the provisions for making a declaration of renunciation.
Section 9(1) of the act provides that any citizen of India who by naturalisation, or registration acquires the citizenship of another country shall cease to be a citizen of India. It also provides that any citizen of India who acquires the citizenship of another country shall cease to be a citizen of India. Notably, the termination provision differs from the renunciation provision because it applies to “any citizen of India” and is not restricted to adults. Indian children therefore also automatically lose their claim to Indian citizenship if at any time after birth they acquire a citizenship of another country by, for example, naturalisation or registration.
The acquisition of another country's passport is also deemed under the Citizenship Rules, 1956 to be voluntary acquisition of another country’s nationality. Rule 3 of Schedule III of the Citizenship Rules, 1956 states that "the fact that a citizen of India has obtained on any date a passport from the Government of any other country shall be conclusive proof of his having voluntarily acquired the citizenship of that country before that date". It does not matter that a person continues to hold an Indian passport. Persons who acquire another citizenship lose Indian citizenship with from the date on which they acquire that citizenship or another country's passport.
Special rules exist for Indian citizens with a connection to Goa, Daman and Diu. Rule 3A of Schedule III of the Citizenship Rules, 1956 states that "Where a person, who has become an Indian Citizen by virtue of the Goa, Daman and Diu (Citizenship) Order, 1962, or the Dadra and Nagar Haveli (Citizenship) Order 1962, issued under section 7 of the Citizenship Act, 1955 (57 of 1955) holds a passport issued by the Government of any other country, the fact that he has not surrendered the said passport on or before the 19th January, 1963 shall be conclusive proof of his having voluntarily acquired the citizenship of that country before that date.
On 16 February 1962, a Constitution Bench of the Supreme Court of India held in the case of Izhar Ahmad Khan Vs. Union of India that “If it is shown that the person has acquired foreign citizenship either by naturalisation or registration, there can be no doubt that he ceases to be a citizen of India in consequence of such naturalisation or registration."
Automatic Termination of Indian citizenship
Termination is covered in Section 9 of the Citizenship Act, 1955. The provisions for termination are separate and distinct from the provisions for making a declaration of renunciation.
Section 9(1) of the act provides that any citizen of India who by naturalisation, or registration acquires the citizenship of another country shall cease to be a citizen of India. It also provides that any citizen of India who acquires the citizenship of another country shall cease to be a citizen of India. Notably, the termination provision differs from the renunciation provision because it applies to “any citizen of India” and is not restricted to adults. Indian children therefore also automatically lose their claim to Indian citizenship if at any time after birth they acquire a citizenship of another country by, for example, naturalisation or registration.
The acquisition of another country's passport is also deemed under the Citizenship Rules, 1956 to be voluntary acquisition of another country’s nationality. Rule 3 of Schedule III of the Citizenship Rules, 1956 states that "the fact that a citizen of India has obtained on any date a passport from the Government of any other country shall be conclusive proof of his having voluntarily acquired the citizenship of that country before that date". It does not matter that a person continues to hold an Indian passport. Persons who acquire another citizenship lose Indian citizenship with from the date on which they acquire that citizenship or another country's passport.
Special rules exist for Indian citizens with a connection to Goa, Daman and Diu. Rule 3A of Schedule III of the Citizenship Rules, 1956 states that "Where a person, who has become an Indian Citizen by virtue of the Goa, Daman and Diu (Citizenship) Order, 1962, or the Dadra and Nagar Haveli (Citizenship) Order 1962, issued under section 7 of the Citizenship Act, 1955 (57 of 1955) holds a passport issued by the Government of any other country, the fact that he has not surrendered the said passport on or before the 19th January, 1963 shall be conclusive proof of his having voluntarily acquired the citizenship of that country before that date.
On 16 February 1962, a Constitution Bench of the Supreme Court of India held in the case of Izhar Ahmad Khan Vs. Union of India that “If it is shown that the person has acquired foreign citizenship either by naturalisation or registration, there can be no doubt that he ceases to be a citizen of India in consequence of such naturalisation or registration."
Last edited by a moderator:
mangal969 said:
Thanks mangal969 for this. Sorry to bore other participants with details ...
I read the case judgment - it is huge! We can get it for free here: http://judis.nic.in/supremecourt/qrydisp.asp?tfnm=3963
It was a close division of the supreme court 3-2 .
I think the central question they were essentially trying to resolve was that if the "passport test" used by GoI was evidence of voluntary acquisition of foreign citizenship. I am summarising 50+ detailed and very thoughtful pages ... The majority of the judges said that based on the nature of the application form for a Pakistani passport particularly, you had to effectively register as a citizen, i.e. voluntarily acquire citizenship.
They did not however deal with the case where someone simply gets a passport without registration or naturalisation. In fact 2 supreme court judges (minority) in this case said that GoI had to prove that someone had voluntarily acquired citizenship and the passport test by itself meant nothing i.e. they rejected the "passport test" (Schedule III, rule 3)!
I am not a lawyer, so please forgive me if I got it wrong.
(sounds like a sad story of people who got "locked out" of India and lost their citizenship) But on the basis of this please don't think there is any Dual Citizenship - these guys got locked in jail while their cases were getting heard - and they lost.
The other thing that was clearly resolved was the question of Article 11 possibly allowing Dual Citizenship. Citizenship legislation can not override the constitution they said. Dual Citizenship was not "favoured" by the constitution the Judges said. Note the use of the word "favoured" as opposed to "permitted".
Last edited by a moderator:
boggavarapu
Registered Users (C)
Oci
I feel the same way!! Lost all my confidence and feel totally betrayed!
mangal969 said:
I feel the same way!! Lost all my confidence and feel totally betrayed!
Oci
My letter to the editor of Indian Express:
Through your esteemed newspaper I wish to draw the attention of the Government to the issue regarding Overseas Indian Citizenship. I had applied for the Dual Citizenship in December 2004. The OCI scheme was put on hold from January 25th 2005 for the purposes of simplification of forms etc. After that date we have been promised many times that the scheme will be operational shortly. But nothing has been done in this regard. On one hand we have the embassies in NZ, Bahrain, and Trinidad processing the applications and on the other hand all the embassies in North America are waiting for instructions from Ministry of Home affairs. I am little intrigued by the lack of coordination between various embassies, MHA and Ministry of external affairs
Apparently the GOI had received 4000 applications when the scheme was opened in December 2004. Nobody knows the status of those applications. It seems to me that the government has done nothing more than making the announcements on each of the Prawasi Diwas. None of my emails, voice messages are answered by the local embassy. Can the PM’s office or someone in MHA/MEA give the utmost attention to this issue and let us know when we NRI’s will expect a result out of this scheme.
My letter to the editor of Indian Express:
Through your esteemed newspaper I wish to draw the attention of the Government to the issue regarding Overseas Indian Citizenship. I had applied for the Dual Citizenship in December 2004. The OCI scheme was put on hold from January 25th 2005 for the purposes of simplification of forms etc. After that date we have been promised many times that the scheme will be operational shortly. But nothing has been done in this regard. On one hand we have the embassies in NZ, Bahrain, and Trinidad processing the applications and on the other hand all the embassies in North America are waiting for instructions from Ministry of Home affairs. I am little intrigued by the lack of coordination between various embassies, MHA and Ministry of external affairs
Apparently the GOI had received 4000 applications when the scheme was opened in December 2004. Nobody knows the status of those applications. It seems to me that the government has done nothing more than making the announcements on each of the Prawasi Diwas. None of my emails, voice messages are answered by the local embassy. Can the PM’s office or someone in MHA/MEA give the utmost attention to this issue and let us know when we NRI’s will expect a result out of this scheme.
mangal969 said:
Well done to all those who have written so far, and yes, lets all continue!!!
I have sent my open letter to GoI to Indian Express, the Hindu and the Times of India. I have replies from the Ambassador and Consulate General (nice replies, basically they are doing the best they can etc etc - they don't yet know when, how etc. please understand etc.)
A few points others may want to add:
- LONG delay in getting OCI operational
- Some embasies have started, others are yet to start
- Some applied and paid 1 year ago with no reply - not one OCI has been issued.
- Govt including PM calls this Dual Citizenship - but it is not - some experts (on this forum ) say this is technically a visa - a revamped PIO.
I think the point about Full Dual Citizenship is important. If all we get is a visa, the next government may come along and in a populist move directed towards the lower classes, and away from "rich NRIs" they may cancel it. OCI is flimsy - its rights and flexibility can be cutailed at any time because it is not guarnteed by the constitution like citizenship is. There is a remote chance that OCI will be operational in month - then what? I say we should continue the fight.
To ammend (sic) my previous post. This ( article 9 ) is not an issue that pertains to distribution of powers betwenthe federal and state gots. therefore 50% of the state legislatures need not ratify it.
I found this on wilkipedia
An amendment to the Constitution is taken very seriously, and needs at least two-thirds of the Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha to pass it. The Constitution of India is one of the most frequently amended constitutions in the world. The first amendment came only a year after the adoption of the Constitution and instituted numerous minor changes. Many more amendments followed, at a rate of almost two amendments per year since 1950. Many matters that would be dealt with by ordinary statutes in most democracies must be dealt with by constitutional amendment in India due to the document's extrordinary detail. Most of the Constitution can be amended after a quorum of more than half of the members of each house in Parliament passes an amendment with a two-thirds majority vote. Articles pertaining to the distribution of legislative authority between Union and State governments must also be approved by 50 percent of State legislatures
I found this on wilkipedia
An amendment to the Constitution is taken very seriously, and needs at least two-thirds of the Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha to pass it. The Constitution of India is one of the most frequently amended constitutions in the world. The first amendment came only a year after the adoption of the Constitution and instituted numerous minor changes. Many more amendments followed, at a rate of almost two amendments per year since 1950. Many matters that would be dealt with by ordinary statutes in most democracies must be dealt with by constitutional amendment in India due to the document's extrordinary detail. Most of the Constitution can be amended after a quorum of more than half of the members of each house in Parliament passes an amendment with a two-thirds majority vote. Articles pertaining to the distribution of legislative authority between Union and State governments must also be approved by 50 percent of State legislatures
My solicitor friend now thinks I'm mad. He probably can't work out why I want what 1,000,000,000 already have, and are trying to lose. Anyway - he's not replying my emails - he did mention that I could file a memorandum - not sure what that means. But I will ask about Freedom Of Information.mangal969 said:
The Citizenship (amendment) bill, 2005
http://rajyasabha.nic.in/bills-ls-rs/main_bill_rs.htm
http://rajyasabha.nic.in/bills-ls-rs/2005/LXXV_2005.pdf
According to the Rajya Sabah website, this Bill has not been introduced to the Rajya Sabah (Upper House). Apparently the 2003 bill never got passed.
Official Status: "TO BE INTRODUCED IN THE RAJYA SABHA"
http://rajyasabha.nic.in/bills-ls-rs/main_bill_rs.htm
http://rajyasabha.nic.in/bills-ls-rs/2005/LXXV_2005.pdf
According to the Rajya Sabah website, this Bill has not been introduced to the Rajya Sabah (Upper House). Apparently the 2003 bill never got passed.
Official Status: "TO BE INTRODUCED IN THE RAJYA SABHA"
Hotdiggety
Registered Users (C)
Very strange. The left hand clearly does not know what the right hand is doing. Even for the Indian government, this is reaching new lows in incompetence.
Reading that bill, I still don't understand why they're so hung-up on other countries "that allow dual citizenship". First of all, this isn't dual citizenship, and would never be unless the person applies separately for it after the residence requirements are met. They can't assume that every OIC would automatically want to become a full citizen.
Secondly, even if this was real citizenship, what business is it of theirs if other countries allow it or not? That's the lookout of the applicant, not the Indian government. Certainly, the US, Canada, and the UK couldn't care less if one of their new citizens also holds some other nationality, or what that nationality is.
Reading that bill, I still don't understand why they're so hung-up on other countries "that allow dual citizenship". First of all, this isn't dual citizenship, and would never be unless the person applies separately for it after the residence requirements are met. They can't assume that every OIC would automatically want to become a full citizen.
Secondly, even if this was real citizenship, what business is it of theirs if other countries allow it or not? That's the lookout of the applicant, not the Indian government. Certainly, the US, Canada, and the UK couldn't care less if one of their new citizens also holds some other nationality, or what that nationality is.