India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)

[PIO1]

While it is agreed that the terms like "dual citizenship", "overseas citizens of India" etc are misnomers, let us be not as hostile or confrontational with GoI and the embassy staff. We have to really thank GoI for extending these benefits to NRIs and PIO non-Indian citizens. Only thing is we need to express out reservations about the terminology being used and some people may be misled into thinking that this is the real thing. But let us not loose sight of the fact that this is really something they are doing it as a favor to us and most of us, the non-Indian citizens, dont have rights to confront GoI.

a) Lets not be hostile - agreed, this is why we want to provide constructive feedback BEFORE the GoI commits a mistake. What is wrong in telling the govt to be honest? Creating a second class citizenship may be unconstitutional. Calling this dual citizenship is wrong.
b) The reason we have no rights, is because our franchise was taken away from us by through no fault of our own - simply by our acceptance of foreign citizenship.
c) The diaspora will have a great say in developing India. We can't do anything effective if we are silent servants to bureacracy - we need to push for change, and this step is just about getting us in the door.

 

[PIO1]

PIO1, I'm with you on a court case. Something needs to be done about this.

Also thanks for the letter you posted, I will amend it and post it also to some people I know in GOI.

Thanks for your support!

I have contact with a solicitor in India, and I have asked him for advice.

I am also thinking of putting that open letter as a sponsored search in Google.

I like you and others here have written to papers re the issue, and might try and write a lighter article, to see if it gets published.

We have sat passively by and waited for things to change. They are not changing. Government inaction, corruption and inefficiency has led to a nation with great potential lagging behind even China in becoming a successful and prosperous country.

GoI needs to know that we are not the rural masses that can be easily persuaded - we will hold you to your word.

 

[Hotdiggety]

I have contact with a solicitor in India, and I have asked him for advice.

Do be sure to ask him his interpretation of Articles 9 and 11 of the Constitution, which deal with citizenship issues.

I think most of us have been like sheep till now, always accepting the government's interpretation of those clauses, and never questioning whether this dual citizenship prohibition was ever real. I think it's time someone did that.

 

[mangal969]

This is all pathetic mismanagement.The Embassy in Wellington is accepting forms.No other embassy in the world may be doing this (Discrimination ??).THe MHA established procedure allows for the embassy official to issue an OCI and then send for post verification.A Home ministry official says that all forms will be processed in New Delhi.There is an OCI registration certificate, a smart card and now an 'information booklet'.
In a nutshell the government of india cannot be trusted to anything right.It is a sad testament indeed.

 

[mangal969]

Do be sure to ask him his interpretation of Articles 9 and 11 of the Constitution, which deal with citizenship issues.

I think most of us have been like sheep till now, always accepting the government's interpretation of those clauses, and never questioning whether this dual citizenship prohibition was ever real. I think it's time someone did that.

I would be very careful while pursuing the legal route.Remember,dual citizenship is not a 'right' granted to us.It is a privilige or a special concession.Just because there is a provision in the constitution that may allow for dual citizenship,doesnt mean that the government is obliged to grant it.

I would rather consult the solicitor on forcing the government to implement the laws it has passed and start the registration of OCI's and issue of U visas as soon as possible.

 

[mangal969]

My letter to editor-Indian express

Sir,
I was in a sense distressed to read the article wherein it was stated that the PM will dole out OIC registrations at PBD 2006.The necessary laws were approved in August of this year and the fact that they are holding back just for some political brownie points is distressing.
What is more distressing is the lack of information and co-ordination between the various government departments,specifically the PMO,the MHA and the MOIA.Each come out with their own statements which seems different from the other.OIC registration was to begin on Nov 14th.But except for the Indian embassy in wellington,no embassy is accepting OIC applications.In your article the Home official mentions that applications will be processed in New Delhi.The legally approved procedure allows for granting of OIC by the embassy official subject to post verification.There is talk of registration certificates,smart cards and now passport type booklets.
Makes you wonder if anyone really knows what is actually happening.
Perhaps the worst anomaly is in the nomenclature.Overseas Indian Citizenship is not the same as Dual Citizenship.It is more like a resident visa.But the government chooses to liberally use the term 'dual citizenship'which can be misleading.
In the end the whole OIC episode has been a fiasco which has left the government, and even me at some levels,red faced and embarrased.I appeal to the PM to please get the act together and immediately implement the scheme in an orderly fashion.

 

[Hotdiggety]

I would be very careful while pursuing the legal route.Remember,dual citizenship is not a 'right' granted to us.It is a privilige or a special concession.Just because there is a provision in the constitution that may allow for dual citizenship,doesnt mean that the government is obliged to grant it.

I would rather consult the solicitor on forcing the government to implement the laws it has passed and start the registration of OCI's and issue of U visas as soon as possible.

I'd be happy enough to get a U visa myself, but I have to disagree with you about citizenship. That is a fundamental right, that should be beyond the scope of the government-of-the-day to grant or take away based on political considerations. It should not be a favor that is bestowed based on the way politicians feel you will behave or vote. It is in fact one of the factors which is basic to the existence of a democratic country.

That's why I think we have to get beyond the attitude of kissing up to Indian politicians, hoping they will grant us more favors. We either have the right of citizenship, or we don't. Either way, let's find out directly from the only institution in India which is qualified to say so - the Supreme Court.

 

[mangal969]

I'd be happy enough to get a U visa myself, but I have to disagree with you about citizenship. That is a fundamental right, that should be beyond the scope of the government-of-the-day to grant or take away based on political considerations. It should not be a favor that is bestowed based on the way politicians feel you will behave or vote. It is in fact one of the factors which is basic to the existence of a democratic country.

That's why I think we have to get beyond the attitude of kissing up to Indian politicians, hoping they will grant us more favors. We either have the right of citizenship, or we don't. Either way, let's find out directly from the only institution in India which is qualified to say so - the Supreme Court.

Read article 11 of the constitution-It is parliament (read government) that has the power to modify the rules regarding citizenship.
About citizenship being a fundamental right, i would disagree with you.We have adopted citizenship of a 'foreign state' and under the rules in force (Article 9 of the constitution) we have willingly given up our right to indian citizenship.
Right now its pretty clear-once you are the citizen of a foreign state you have forfeited all your rights to indian citizenship.It will take an act of parliament to allow dual citizenship.Going to the supreme court right now is moot.

 

[Hotdiggety]

Read article 11 of the constitution-It is parliament (read government) that has the power to modify the rules regarding citizenship.
About citizenship being a fundamental right, i would disagree with you.We have adopted citizenship of a 'foreign state' and under the rules in force (Article 9 of the constitution) we have willingly given up our right to indian citizenship.
Right now its pretty clear-once you are the citizen of a foreign state you have forfeited all your rights to indian citizenship.It will take an act of parliament to allow dual citizenship.Going to the supreme court right now is moot.

From the discussions here, I'm getting the impression that somewhere along the line, Parliament may already have passed a law allowing dual citizenship, as part of this whole sorry U visa fiasco. I don't know for sure if they have. I also don't know if it would fall under the rules envisaged in Article 11.

However, what if there is a law permitting dual citizenship already on the books, and the government is simply not interpreting it as having overridden Article 9? Then a Supreme Court case would force them to give us normal citizenship rights.

They could, of course, change the law, but what are the chances they would do that? That would amount to openly admitting that they don't want to give us real dual citizenship, rather than using the constitution as an excuse, as they're doing now.

Either way, only an Indian lawyer can tell us whether this is even a possibility.

 

[PIO1]

Read article 11 of the constitution-It is parliament (read government) that has the power to modify the rules regarding citizenship.

I asked about this - and my friend is not an expert in consititutional law, but says legislative practice is that once the constitution has established a principle, it can not be contradicted by legislation. The interpretation of article 11 is that laws may be passed so long as they do not contradict the broad provisions of the constitution (with amendments).

It is a fuzzy area, but GoI would be probably reluctant to venture into this unchartered area.

However two points did come up (1) what if your aquisition of foreign citizenship was involuntary (e.g. by descent) - you could still be a dual citizen technically as per constitution - though current practice is to revoke citizenship. (2) As citizenship has a specific meaning in the Constitution, and the use of Overseas Citizenship of India and Dual Citizenship, may very well be unconstitutional.

Anyway will continue with enquiries....

 

[schandrag]

The real problem is that to grant true dual citizenship the constitution will have to be AMMENDED. For that you need a 2/3 majority in the lower house of parliament(lok Sabha) and if I am not mistaken approval of 2/3 of state legislatures. No party has had a 2/3 majority in parliament for a while and is unlikely to happen in the near future.
Until that happens sops like OIC are the only option. it can be done by a simple majority in the house,creating a ammendment to the ctiizenship act which does not contravene the constitution.
(Yes India does have a citizenship act. unitl recently anyone born in India would automatically be a citizen, but due to increasing illegal immigration now both parents would have to be resident legally in the country for the child to qualify for citizenship.)


Diclaimer. I am not in the legal profession. This is just my amateur understanding of contitutional matters which are qutie complex.

 

[mangal969]

However two points did come up (1) what if your aquisition of foreign citizenship was involuntary (e.g. by descent) - you could still be a dual citizen technically as per constitution - though current practice is to revoke citizenship. (2) As citizenship has a specific meaning in the Constitution, and the use of Overseas Citizenship of India and Dual Citizenship, may very well be unconstitutional.

Anyway will continue with enquiries....

There is a provision for Indian citizenship by descent:
(i) A person born outside India on or after 26th January 1950 but before 10th December 1992 is a citizen of India by descent, if his father was a citizen of India by birth at the time of his birth. In case the father was a citizen of India by descent only, that person shall not be a citizen of India, unless his birth is registered at an Indian Consulate within one year from the date of birth or with the permission of the Central Government, after the expiry of the said period.

(ii)A person born outside India on or after 10th December 1992 but before 3rd December, 2004, is considered as a citizen of India if either of his parents was a citizen of India by birth at the time of his birth. In case either of the parents was a citizen of India by descent, that person shall not be a citizen of India, unless his birth is registered at an Indian Consulate within one year from the date of birth or with the permission of the Central Government, after the expiry of the said period.

(iii)A person born outside India on or after 3rd Decmber, 2004 shall not be a citizen of India, unless the parents declare that the minor does not hold passport of another country and his birth is registered at an Indian consulate within one year of the date of birth or with the permission of the Central Government, after the expiry of the said period.

How can you "technically" be a dual citizen ? The constitution is very clear in section 9 that once you adopt citizenship of a foreign state you have no rights to citizenship of India.
At this stage dual citizenship is unconstitutional.I guess that is why the term "Overseas citizenship of India" has been coined.The constitution has no mention of this term nor does it prohibit use of the term.In none of the legal texts will you find this mentioned as dual citizenship.In all the laws rules etc it has been phrased as the independent term "Overseas citizenship of India".

 

[boggavarapu]

Oci

I know that the richest man in Europe - Mr. Lakshmi Mittal is based in the UK. He will be attending PBD 2006.

It might be worthwhile to send him a letter and request him to express the feelings of PIOs to the PM personally! He may be willing to help.


Contact details:

Lakshmi Mittal
Summer Palace
The Bishops Avenue
Hampstead Garden Suburb London
N2 OAB Great Britain

 

[mangal969]

From the discussions here, I'm getting the impression that somewhere along the line, Parliament may already have passed a law allowing dual citizenship, as part of this whole sorry U visa fiasco. I don't know for sure if they have. I also don't know if it would fall under the rules envisaged in Article 11.

However, what if there is a law permitting dual citizenship already on the books, and the government is simply not interpreting it as having overridden Article 9? Then a Supreme Court case would force them to give us normal citizenship rights.

They could, of course, change the law, but what are the chances they would do that? That would amount to openly admitting that they don't want to give us real dual citizenship, rather than using the constitution as an excuse, as they're doing now.

Either way, only an Indian lawyer can tell us whether this is even a possibility.

Even if there was an amendment permitting dual citizenship in what was passed earlier in 2003, that part of the law (citizenship act) has been repealed in favour of the current rules.Unfortunately we cannot make an argument for laws that stand repealed.The law as it stands today does not allow for dual citizenship and unfortunately thats how it is.

Plus i do not think that there can be any approved law that is in direct conflict with the constitution.If nowhere else such a law would not be approved by the President.And if by some stroke such a law were to exist the supreme court would undoubtedly strike it down because of it's conflict with the constitution.

 

[mangal969]

The real problem is that to grant true dual citizenship the constitution will have to be AMMENDED. For that you need a 2/3 majority in the lower house of parliament(lok Sabha) and if I am not mistaken approval of 2/3 of state legislatures. No party has had a 2/3 majority in parliament for a while and is unlikely to happen in the near future.
Until that happens sops like OIC are the only option. it can be done by a simple majority in the house,creating a ammendment to the ctiizenship act which does not contravene the constitution.
(Yes India does have a citizenship act. unitl recently anyone born in India would automatically be a citizen, but due to increasing illegal immigration now both parents would have to be resident legally in the country for the child to qualify for citizenship.)


Diclaimer. I am not in the legal profession. This is just my amateur understanding of contitutional matters which are qutie complex.

I agree that amending the constitution would be an extremely difficult task.But in this case not entirely impossible.The BJP when it was in power had started the whole dual citizenship thing.There is no real opposition as such to dual citizenship from the current situation.I guess it's just a question for gaining political will and the desire to do something.....

 

[mangal969]

I know that the richest man in Europe - Mr. Lakshmi Mittal is based in the UK. He will be attending PBD 2006.

It might be worthwhile to send him a letter and request him to express the feelings of PIOs to the PM personally! He may be willing to help.


Contact details:

Lakshmi Mittal
Summer Palace
The Bishops Avenue
Hampstead Garden Suburb London
N2 OAB Great Britain

I dont think it will be of any use because Mr Mittal will probably be the first OCI recipient
Anyways Mr Mittal if at all will meet the PM during the PBD.Probably the process will have started by then and our requests to him would probably fall on deaf ears.Besides if i was Mr Mittal and I had half an hour with the PM i would be discussing steel concessions rather than diaspora issues

 

[PIO1]

How can you "technically" be a dual citizen ? The constitution is very clear in section 9 that once you adopt citizenship of a foreign state you have no rights to citizenship of India.
At this stage dual citizenship is unconstitutional.I guess that is why the term "Overseas citizenship of India" has been coined.The constitution has no mention of this term nor does it prohibit use of the term.In none of the legal texts will you find this mentioned as dual citizenship.In all the laws rules etc it has been phrased as the independent term "Overseas citizenship of India".

Ahhhh! The constitution says in article 9:

Persons voluntarily acquiring citizenship of a foreign State not to be citizens.— No person shall be a citizen of India by virtue of article 5, or be deemed to be a citizen of India by virtue of article 6 or article 8, if he has voluntarily acquired the citizenship of any foreign State.

Read the word voluntarily. What if it was not voluntary - for e.g. you acquired foreign citizenship by birth or descent (e.g. your mother was a foreigner? And you did not go through a naturalisation.)

Current practice is to revoke Indian Citizenship, but this practice may be unconstitutional.

Also if an act of parliament contradicts the constitution, then that act is unconstitutional - this applies to the citizenship act of 1955 even taking into account article 11 - such is my advice.

PS Anyway - this is really a minor potential loophole that won't help many here - and was not really the main point. In practice - agreed - there is no Dual Citizenship, yet GoI continues to say that with OCI there is.

 

[mangal969]

I agree with PIO1 we are getting sidetracked from the main issue.True Indian dual citizenship does not exist and is unlikely to exist in the near future.

The GoI is using the term Dual Citizenship outside of the legal framework.In no clause of the amended citizenship act nor in any of the explanations attached to the same is the term 'dual citizenship' or 'dual nationality' used.What the government is doing is just misleading people into a false sense of security.I would advise all people to fully understand what they are going for when they apply for OCI.It is by all reasonalbe means best described as a permanent resident visa or an Indian green card rather than a dual citizenship.

 

[mangal969]

Just a point - If you obtained foreign citizenship "involuntarily" and your parents didnt register you at the Indian consulate within a year of your birth (or by Dec 10th 1992)you are ineligible for Indian citizenship by descent.This has been covered in the Citizenship act.

 

[mangal969]

From the MOIA website-Just to make you feel good about OIC again

One of the significant tasks that we have completed since Pravasi Bharatiya Divas in Mumbai in January 2005 is the legislative backup for the expanded and decentralised scheme for Overseas Citizenship of India (OCI). Parliament recently approved the Bill to replace the Ordinance to amend the Citizenship Act, 1955 to allow the facility of OCI to any country that allows dual citizenship in some form. Procedurally, powers are being delegated to the Indian Missions/Posts to decide grant of OCI in cases where there are no adverse records. Our Ministry is setting up a computerized facility where the OCI Registration Card and the Visa sticker that will go on to the passports of overseas Indians would be security printed and couriered back. We are working towards a roll out in October. The Missions/Posts have been permitted to hire local staff to cope with the additional work, particularly in the initial months. The details would go up on the website of the Ministry of Home Affairs shortly.

The amount of un coordination between the MHA, the MOIA and the PMO can best be described as "This happens only in India....."