Simply obtaining the OCI will not deprive you of consular protection, but residing in India for 1 yr and applying for indian citizenship will likely lead to loss of consular protection. This is true for many dual citizenships, one country is not interested in its dual citizens when they reside in the country of their second citizenship. By the way, OCI is not a strict nonimmigrant visa, its a means of obtaining dual citizenship, i.e. something like a US greencard.Hotdiggety said:
India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)
- Thread starter columbiaman
- Start date
Your guess is as good as mine! This is a big change to the citizenship law and reverses several decades of jingoistic thinking. Why jingoistic? -- The previous citizenship law assumed that a person could be loyal only to one country, i.e. it expected undivided loyalty from all citizens. It treated indians who left india like foreigners and traitors. This type of thinking is reflected in several indian laws like the flag act. Anything about the govt. is sacred and holy.qwert97 said:And when is that going to start??????
With OCI, this attitude will be challenged big time. So expect a good deal of opposition from various parties, both the pseudopatriotic as well as the really patriotic.
hipka said:
Are you a CBI agent or do actually work in someway for GOI or have someone beloved working for GOI or you take joy in irritating people. Do you honestly think the GOI and machinery has been delivering what they promised and all the people on this board (and millions others who are not part of this board) are talking of a non-issue because they are all ISI / CIA agents ?
There is no Dual Citizenship
I am very happy to be proved wrong, but there is NO Dual Citizenship for Indians. Every person who has done basic research on the new proposals have said the same thing, also in this forum.
Every single media article about OCI I see mentions the words "dual citizenship". I saw one from the UK that said that the new Indian "dual citizenship" will make your UK citizenship revokable. Some people say the US can not offer consular assistance to Indian "Dual Citizens". Others write how wonderful this new "dual citizenship" is... All these articles are incorrect.
I remember 10+ years back that the GOI was claiming dual citizenship. That's when we got the POI.
OCI is a marginally better visa class than PIO, and offers a couple of benefits over and above a foreigner, but is a far cry from citizenship.
I am very happy to be proved wrong, but there is NO Dual Citizenship for Indians. Every person who has done basic research on the new proposals have said the same thing, also in this forum.
Every single media article about OCI I see mentions the words "dual citizenship". I saw one from the UK that said that the new Indian "dual citizenship" will make your UK citizenship revokable. Some people say the US can not offer consular assistance to Indian "Dual Citizens". Others write how wonderful this new "dual citizenship" is... All these articles are incorrect.
I remember 10+ years back that the GOI was claiming dual citizenship. That's when we got the POI.
OCI is a marginally better visa class than PIO, and offers a couple of benefits over and above a foreigner, but is a far cry from citizenship.
What could have been
I agree the law could have been changed - perhaps as you say even without a constitutional amendment. I think Congress and BJP leadership both wanted and supported full dual citizenship, but the dynamics of parliament, with which few of us are familiar, have meant that the necessary amendments have never gone through (the opposition never supports the govt, and minor parties are opposed to their consituents losing rights to outsiders).
But we need to stop the misinformation that there is a dual citizenship, and continue the battle to get the real thing!
Hotdiggety said:
I agree the law could have been changed - perhaps as you say even without a constitutional amendment. I think Congress and BJP leadership both wanted and supported full dual citizenship, but the dynamics of parliament, with which few of us are familiar, have meant that the necessary amendments have never gone through (the opposition never supports the govt, and minor parties are opposed to their consituents losing rights to outsiders).
But we need to stop the misinformation that there is a dual citizenship, and continue the battle to get the real thing!
You are wrong, OCI does provide a path to dual citizenship. check out the following links -- (http://mha.nic.in/oci-faq.pdf), states that you can become a regular indian citizen after 5 yrs of OCI. If you are a US citizen check -- http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html -- tells that you will not necessarily lose US citizenship if you apply for Indian Citizenship(this is still being worked out). I don't know why people in this forum are comparing OCI rights & privileges with regular indian citizen privileges, because no sensible govt. in the world will grant regular citizenship to foreigners without first giving a probationary period. Clearly the rights during this probationary period cannot be the same as a regular citizen (ex. US greencard holders do not have the same rights as citizens). What you need to compare are the rights of citizens in India (by birth) and rights of dual citizens after they converted to full indian citizenship.PIO1 said:
It may be possible to get the real thing depending on how the other country regards this. Check my previous posts, even if you take an oath under the indian constitution, some countries do not recognize this( this issue is still disputed ). So better wait till OCI gets implemented before you continue your senseless battle!PIO1 said:
Hipka, Others say you are nuts, but I don't think so. I say again there is no dual citizenship. The laws have not been modified to allow it. The provision for naturalisation has been there since 1955 and this will not change (though the period of residency may be reduced slightly).
If you apply for Indian citizenship, they will confiscate your passport. You may still be entitled to US citizenship, but once you action that entitlement (for example by naturalisation, or applying for a replacement passport), your Indian citizenship is revoked. This is the problem everyone has been talking about!!!!
I had an Indian passport soon after I was born, and was also a citizen of a foreign country by birthright. It was only when I applied for a foreign passport that my Indian citizenship was revoked. Even if my passport is confiscated by GOI through Indian naturalisation, I can still apply for a replacement to my foreign passport - but when I do, I must renounce my Indian citizenship again.
I say this from experience, after discussing this in detail with the consulate. If you have a US passport, and continue to use your Indian passport, you are committing an offence, your citizenship will be revoked and you could face jail. So please do not do this, as I continue to appreciate your contribution to this forum, and last I checked, they don't have broadband in Indian prisons
If you apply for Indian citizenship, they will confiscate your passport. You may still be entitled to US citizenship, but once you action that entitlement (for example by naturalisation, or applying for a replacement passport), your Indian citizenship is revoked. This is the problem everyone has been talking about!!!!
I had an Indian passport soon after I was born, and was also a citizen of a foreign country by birthright. It was only when I applied for a foreign passport that my Indian citizenship was revoked. Even if my passport is confiscated by GOI through Indian naturalisation, I can still apply for a replacement to my foreign passport - but when I do, I must renounce my Indian citizenship again.
I say this from experience, after discussing this in detail with the consulate. If you have a US passport, and continue to use your Indian passport, you are committing an offence, your citizenship will be revoked and you could face jail. So please do not do this, as I continue to appreciate your contribution to this forum, and last I checked, they don't have broadband in Indian prisons
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Hotdiggety
Registered Users (C)
It should be clear to everyone here that the Indian government is not interested in giving you dual citizenship. They are being very half-hearted even about this U visa they've come up with, and seem to be trying very hard to make it look like they're doing something, when they've done nothing at all.
The Indian government will not go through the process of changing the consitutution to accommodate us. This is something they clearly do not want to do, for whatever reason. Article 9 of the constitution is the crux of the problem. They are interpreting it as an absolute restriction. I believe that the restriction is not absolute, and that Article 11 overrides it.
So the only possible way out of this mess is to go to the Supreme Court, and make the argument that Article 11 overrides Article 9. If they agree, then the whole problem is solved at one stroke. The Supreme Court is the only institution that the government MUST listen to. That's who should be approached to get a constitutional interpretation. I'm amazed that no one has done this yet. The people who should be doing something about this, appear to be doing nothing more than showing up for awards and speeches on Pravasi Bharati Divas.
The Supreme Court in India seems to have taken on some quasi-executive powers, and appears to be doing things which a democratically elected government in India is too politically afraid to do. Just based on their activism, I would say there is a good chance that an argument on our behalf would succeed.
Whatever happens, I know two things that will never work. They are a) begging the Indian government to be nice to us, or b) complaining on an internet message board.
The Indian government will not go through the process of changing the consitutution to accommodate us. This is something they clearly do not want to do, for whatever reason. Article 9 of the constitution is the crux of the problem. They are interpreting it as an absolute restriction. I believe that the restriction is not absolute, and that Article 11 overrides it.
So the only possible way out of this mess is to go to the Supreme Court, and make the argument that Article 11 overrides Article 9. If they agree, then the whole problem is solved at one stroke. The Supreme Court is the only institution that the government MUST listen to. That's who should be approached to get a constitutional interpretation. I'm amazed that no one has done this yet. The people who should be doing something about this, appear to be doing nothing more than showing up for awards and speeches on Pravasi Bharati Divas.
The Supreme Court in India seems to have taken on some quasi-executive powers, and appears to be doing things which a democratically elected government in India is too politically afraid to do. Just based on their activism, I would say there is a good chance that an argument on our behalf would succeed.
Whatever happens, I know two things that will never work. They are a) begging the Indian government to be nice to us, or b) complaining on an internet message board.
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gaurav2005
Registered Users (C)
I agree with PIO1 and others on this issue. There is no such thing as a Dual citizenship. As far as the Indian citizenship is concerned, they are unambiguous in that you just cannot have any other citizenship in addition to Indian. US rules are little lenient but even they do say that they dont encourage or allow dual citizenships as a policy but they ask to check the local laws of the other country with respect to dual citizenship. Indian laws are very clear about this. If you are a British or some other european country, then you may get by with dual citizenship but if you are an Indian by origin, looks like we need to forget about anything "dual" for our life time.
I have no doubts in my mind about "OIC" but it is a misnomer and it makes a convincing case to sue GoI for misleading people. There is nothing like "citizenship" so why do they use words like Overseas Indian citizen or Dual citizen ?
All I want is to get this "U" visa so that we dont need to report to police station if we stay longer than 6 months. The last thing I want for my family is to visit an Indian police station.
I have no doubts in my mind about "OIC" but it is a misnomer and it makes a convincing case to sue GoI for misleading people. There is nothing like "citizenship" so why do they use words like Overseas Indian citizen or Dual citizen ?
All I want is to get this "U" visa so that we dont need to report to police station if we stay longer than 6 months. The last thing I want for my family is to visit an Indian police station.
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Agree with Gaurav and Hotdiggety. Who wants to go to court?
People ask why we take up foreign citizenship if we still want to remain Indians.
I took up foreign citizenship, ironically, when I wanted to migrate back to India. Green cards are only valid if you are resident in the US - you need to keep visiting. (It didn't work out, so I returned. Might try again in a few years).
I read in Australia (like US) you can get expelled if you do not have citizenship, if you are charged with a crime.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17358509-421,00.html
For many of us we are not proud to lose our Indian citizenship. Some in Fiji for example were taken away from their families at the age of 15 to work as indentured labourers. Now they are not allowed to own farming property in Fiji, they are second class citizens there, and India too has forsaken them.
I still remain passionate about dual citizenship. So forgive me if I keep up the fight.
People ask why we take up foreign citizenship if we still want to remain Indians.
I took up foreign citizenship, ironically, when I wanted to migrate back to India. Green cards are only valid if you are resident in the US - you need to keep visiting. (It didn't work out, so I returned. Might try again in a few years).
I read in Australia (like US) you can get expelled if you do not have citizenship, if you are charged with a crime.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17358509-421,00.html
For many of us we are not proud to lose our Indian citizenship. Some in Fiji for example were taken away from their families at the age of 15 to work as indentured labourers. Now they are not allowed to own farming property in Fiji, they are second class citizens there, and India too has forsaken them.
I still remain passionate about dual citizenship. So forgive me if I keep up the fight.
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Guys,relax.
True Dual Citizenship is not nor has it ever been on offer.Overseas Indian Citizenship is the only thing on offer.And that too it is a very "iffy" situation.
I guess we can just wait and watch.We can vent our frustrations through writing to e-mails but somehow i dont think anyone will listen.Lawsuits will just provide an excuse to delay everything furthur.We just have to wait and see what happens.True dual citizenship may be a bit in the future,but it is not in 2006.
One step at a time .......
True Dual Citizenship is not nor has it ever been on offer.Overseas Indian Citizenship is the only thing on offer.And that too it is a very "iffy" situation.
I guess we can just wait and watch.We can vent our frustrations through writing to e-mails but somehow i dont think anyone will listen.Lawsuits will just provide an excuse to delay everything furthur.We just have to wait and see what happens.True dual citizenship may be a bit in the future,but it is not in 2006.
One step at a time .......
mangal969 said:
If true Dual Citizenship has not been on offer, then what is all this:
"On the occasion of first Pravasi Bhartiya Diwas on 9th January 2003, Hon'ble Prime Minister Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee had made an announcement for grant of dual citizenship to PIOs."
http://www.indiaday.org/government_policy/dual_citizenship.asp
"The Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh today announced that the
Government has decided to extend the facility of dual citizenship to all
overseas Indians who migrated from India after 26th January 1950"
(Official press release 7 Jan 05)
http://www.ficci.com/ficci/media-room/speeches-presentations/2005/jan/pbd/pbd-Inaugural-2005.pdf
"Our Government has also decided to give substance to a longstanding demand of overseas Indians, namely, the granting of dual citizenship" Dr M Singh, PM, http://www.indianembassy.org/Speeches/2.htm
Hotdiggety
Registered Users (C)
PIO1 said:
What are these? These are all the reasons I haven't lived there for 32 years, and all related to how the government operates. In a nation of otherwise smart people, India has a government which is incompetent, corrupt, disconnected from real-life issues, prone to saying things which have no basis in reality, and very slow to eliminate all the stupid laws they have on their books. For all their much-touted economic reforms, that country isn't going to really progress without some serious attitude changes on the part of the government.
Oci
It is very easy to criticise the government but are you going to do something so that you can get your voice heard? Are you going to share your concerns with your local embassy, I guess not! Like others on the forum I am very passionate at the possibility of getting OCI/U visa whatever and I will continue my fight till I get it.
Hotdiggety said:
What are these? These are all the reasons I haven't lived there for 32 years, and all related to how the government operates. In a nation of otherwise smart people, India has a government which is incompetent, corrupt, disconnected from real-life issues, prone to saying things which have no basis in reality, and very slow to eliminate all the stupid laws they have on their books. For all their much-touted economic reforms, that country isn't going to really progress without some serious attitude changes on the part of the government.
It is very easy to criticise the government but are you going to do something so that you can get your voice heard? Are you going to share your concerns with your local embassy, I guess not! Like others on the forum I am very passionate at the possibility of getting OCI/U visa whatever and I will continue my fight till I get it.
Hotdiggety
Registered Users (C)
qwert97 said:
I truly and sincerely wish you luck. However, I made a decision a long time ago that I wouldn't waste my life by continually banging my head against a brick wall.
gaurav2005
Registered Users (C)
PIO1
PMs and the GoI have been using this word "dual citizenship" liberally without knowing its true meaning. GoI made it very clear from the beginning what is being offered and what is not. I guess they were using this word for appeasing the NRIs. There is nothing like true or false dual citizenship. If you call dual citizenship, it means all the rights of a citizen for both the countries. Either they offer that or else they should immediately stop using this word. I would be happy if they just call this a PIO and merge the benefits of both.
In fact I called the embassy of India to express my thoughts on this, there was a voice mail and left my message. I suggest all of you to do that. If no one answers, just fill up their mail boxes about what you think about this subject. First we have to put pressure to get this "U" visa thing going.
PMs and the GoI have been using this word "dual citizenship" liberally without knowing its true meaning. GoI made it very clear from the beginning what is being offered and what is not. I guess they were using this word for appeasing the NRIs. There is nothing like true or false dual citizenship. If you call dual citizenship, it means all the rights of a citizen for both the countries. Either they offer that or else they should immediately stop using this word. I would be happy if they just call this a PIO and merge the benefits of both.
In fact I called the embassy of India to express my thoughts on this, there was a voice mail and left my message. I suggest all of you to do that. If no one answers, just fill up their mail boxes about what you think about this subject. First we have to put pressure to get this "U" visa thing going.
First someone should call the bluff of the MOIA secretary on the delay of the whole process due to creation of "tamper proof forms".The forms have been up on the MHA site since early September .Nothing has been changed.So what exactly is he talking about ? The government should be made to realise that the PIO community isnt as gullible as the general popoulation of India so as to believe anything they have to say.
I would suggest instead of wasting time leaving your opinion with the embassies,e-mail "en masse" the President,PM and Chief Justice of India.I have e-mailed the MOIA secretary several times but have never received a response.Maybe the new MOIA minister will have an e-mail address up so it would be worth e-mailing him.
I would suggest instead of wasting time leaving your opinion with the embassies,e-mail "en masse" the President,PM and Chief Justice of India.I have e-mailed the MOIA secretary several times but have never received a response.Maybe the new MOIA minister will have an e-mail address up so it would be worth e-mailing him.
PIO1 said:
I would agree in 2003 what the erstwhile BJP government had offered was dual citizenship but that was to be on a case by case basis .However once the current laws were passed it was always about the 'U' Visa and the TITLE of Overseas citizen of India.Dual citizenship was off the table.
The current use of "dual citizenship" in the current context is nothing more than a misnomer.What we are being offered is a visa and that is about it.
An open letter to the Government of India concerning Dual Citizenship,
Every diligent (and sensible) person who has studied the new measures contained in the yet-to-be-implemented Overseas Citizenship of India initiative (OCI) agrees that there is no Dual Citizenship. There can be no doubt. OCI is a new visa class that is marginally better to, but in essence not much different from the existing PIO card. In fact some refer to the new measures as the "U Visa class" - because it is really little more than a visa.
Ministers, government officials, the media, even the PM - in their speeches and the highest official papers, continue to refer to OCI as Dual Citizenship.
Dual citizenship has a very specific and unambiguous meaning.
This is directly contradicted in this statement from the Ministry of Home Affairs:
This confusion has meant that many of the 4,000 people who have already applied for the OCI, and the many that will do so once it becomes operational, think they are getting Dual Citizenship.
However the OCI offers no rights or privileges of citizenship. We are being openly misled by bureaucrats, ministers, and the media (reporting on official statements). Surely this is not right.
Even when we do get this much delayed and watered-down "U visa class", the next small step in the right direction, we continue to ask for our original simple request. Dual Citizenship.
GoI, if you are serious about development in India, and the role of Diaspora, please do not continue this half-truth, and implement a full Dual Citizenship of India.
I await your response.
Yours sincerely,
A concerned overseas Indian
Every diligent (and sensible) person who has studied the new measures contained in the yet-to-be-implemented Overseas Citizenship of India initiative (OCI) agrees that there is no Dual Citizenship. There can be no doubt. OCI is a new visa class that is marginally better to, but in essence not much different from the existing PIO card. In fact some refer to the new measures as the "U Visa class" - because it is really little more than a visa.
Ministers, government officials, the media, even the PM - in their speeches and the highest official papers, continue to refer to OCI as Dual Citizenship.
Dual citizenship has a very specific and unambiguous meaning.
This is directly contradicted in this statement from the Ministry of Home Affairs:
This confusion has meant that many of the 4,000 people who have already applied for the OCI, and the many that will do so once it becomes operational, think they are getting Dual Citizenship.
However the OCI offers no rights or privileges of citizenship. We are being openly misled by bureaucrats, ministers, and the media (reporting on official statements). Surely this is not right.
Even when we do get this much delayed and watered-down "U visa class", the next small step in the right direction, we continue to ask for our original simple request. Dual Citizenship.
GoI, if you are serious about development in India, and the role of Diaspora, please do not continue this half-truth, and implement a full Dual Citizenship of India.
I await your response.
Yours sincerely,
A concerned overseas Indian