India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)

[qwert97]

oci

I am convinced that the government will not open it prior to January 7th. I think they are in the position to open the OCI registration now, but since they they dont have any other news to declare on Pravasi diwas they will declare this on January 7th. So we need to sit tight for another 2 months.

For all the families who have not made the application my only advise is to make the application only when the government grants the OCI to at least one Indian which may be in 2007

 

[PIO1]

Oci

They have been declaring "dual citizenship" at pravesi diwas for about 3 years. If they do it again without it being in place, it will be a sad joke for those who have been attending for these years.

The irony is that on 9 January 1915, the day that is marked by Pravesi Diwas, Mahatma Gandhi returned to India after his success in claiming full rights as an equal British Subject. 91 years later, we are unable to do the same as Indians.

 

[Hotdiggety]

They have been declaring "dual citizenship" at pravesi diwas for about 3 years. If they do it again without it being in place, it will be a sad joke for those who have been attending for these years.

The irony is that on 9 January 1915, the day that is marked by Pravesi Diwas, Mahatma Gandhi returned to India after his success in claiming full rights as an equal British Subject. 91 years later, we are unable to do the same as Indians.

Even more ironically, some of us still do have full and equal rights as British Subjects. Clearly, we need a M. K. Gandhi, version 2.0, to launch a satyagraha on our behalf with the Indian government. Perhaps a little civil disobedience or another salt march....?

 

[hipka]

Overseas citizenship, or often misrepresented as dual citizenship, is being handled by Indian govt. (politicians and bureaucrats) for the PIO's (former Indian citizens). PERM for labor certification has been implemented by the US Govt. for foreigners. There is no comparision between these two situations. You apply for a US citizenship as an alien, USCIS treats you differently, but the moment you apply for US pssport, your interaction with the State Dept. is qualitative different. I can bet as a US citizen, you will not be subject to years wait for a service. In fact, after becoming a US citizen, even USCIS also deals with you differently and communicate with phone and emails too!

Hello, hold on there. Indian dual citizenship is also meant for foreigners of indian origin. Why exactly should USCIS treat you differently because you are an alien?? Don't alien's pay taxes?? Don't they deserve courteous treatment. We are not talking about some asylees or refugees here we are talking about skilled professionals.Comparing the immigration systems of both countries -- i.e. India and US, I feel they are pretty much the same, both throughly incompetent and useless. However OIC is a major change to existing laws and I am perpared to give the Indian govt. as much time as they need without balming them. PERM however demonstrates the utter incompetence of US, when it comes to reforming a system.

 

[hipka]

I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the issue.But consider these facts:the law permitting dual citizenship was cleared (parliament president approval etc) in December 2003.Today is the 18th of August 2005...there is still not one person approved for dual citizenship.And it's not like the time is spent is improving or refining the legislation.Except for the list of countries and the application procedure (supposedly),everything is exactly the same as it was 2 years ago.
The US government may have taken 5 years for PERM, but they did not make statements saying that they will implement it soon.Here everyone, from the PM to the bureaucracy is making statements that they will implement it soon.In fact there was a press release from the government itself saying that they will implement it around the 15th of August.Also the whole whitewash with the ordinance (and the abuse of power that the government showed while promulgating the ordinance) is also an issue in focus.
Dual citizenship in it's current form is not at all a complicated issue.It is something like a green card minus the residency requirements.And if you go through the legislation it is pretty comprehensive on what is conferred and what is denied.
The whole purpose of dual citizenship is to attract business and investment.What smart businessman would put his time effort and money into a country where the wheels of bureaucracy turn so slowly ?
In my opinion, the whole reason for this delay is because the government does not consider this an important issue or an issue that can get them political mileage.If they were sincere, 15th August would have seen the implementation of the dual citizenship scheme.
So any criticism of the Indian governement is justified.It is the59th year of independence and we have a President that uses powerpoint in his speeches and yet we have politicans struggling with political realities more than national realities.Be it dual citizenship or anything else the government just moves too slowly for it to do any work of value.

This is the way democracies work, you have to build a consensus and it takes time to get implemented. Your other choice is dictatorship or communism, take it from me you won't like either one. Considering the resources available to USCIS and the fact that it took them 5 yrs to implement a simple procedure like PERM (there was no change of law here), I should say that the indian govt. is moving at lightning speed on OIC!

 

[PIO1]

The salt march ...

I thought we had democratic consensus when parliament passed the legislation in 2003? That should have been the end of it. Delaying the will of the people is not democracy.

I'm not from the US and don't know what PERM is. I applied for the OCI 12 months back - and besides the receipt I got on that day, I don't have a single bit of official information to confirm that my application is OK, is being processed, will be issued or anything. The latest is that it is yet to be implemented. I think as far as bureaucratic bungles go, this has got to be on the shortlist of the world's worst.

If the Govt of India decided that it is more important for them to spend their resources elsewhere, I would be the first to say please put my application on hold for another 10 years.

But are they putting these funds/time in proving the lot for the rural and poverty stricken masses? I don't think so.

A good way to facilitate rural infrastructure development is to encourage the Diaspora to invest. This has been proven to have worked in China. OCI will have a material effect - and that is why I (for one) think it is important for India.

Ask anyone, NRI, PIOs, and locals, who have tried to do something useful in India - what their biggest hurdle was, they will list the bureaucracy and corruption. My guess is even the PM is helpless in front of them. These bureaucrats can help the most by getting out of the way. Implement the legislation, it doesn't take 3 years. You have the visa stickers already, just process the applications like a PIO and stick the visa on the passports - simple - I'll show you how!!! (If you think it is more complex than this, it isn't - just look at the current sticking point on CG of Wellington's web page - problems with tamper-proof OCI certificates)

Hotdiggety asks for a satyagraha, a salt march. Lets reclaim India from these bureaucrats starting with this OCI!

 

[hipka]

I thought we had democratic consensus when parliament passed the legislation in 2003? That should have been the end of it. Delaying the will of the people is not democracy.

Several issues need to be worked out after a law is passed. Sometimes the govt. has to issue a clarification and many times a law is rendered useless when it is implemented due to social conditions. One example is the banning of gambling slot machines in the US(1920's), was such a big flop that the govt. quickly changed its mind.

I'm not from the US and don't know what PERM is. I applied for the OCI 12 months back - and besides the receipt I got on that day, I don't have a single bit of official information to confirm that my application is OK, is being processed, will be issued or anything. The latest is that it is yet to be implemented. I think as far as bureaucratic bungles go, this has got to be on the shortlist of the world's worst.

Just to make a comparision, a US greencard takes approx. 3 years to process and the greencard process has been in place for several decades now. Many people wait for 6-7 yrs for the greencard but I haven't heard anyone say that US bureaucracy is one of the worst in world! I think its the attitude of indians, they are ready to accept substandard service in foreign countries but when it comes to India they want instant results!

If the Govt of India decided that it is more important for them to spend their resources elsewhere, I would be the first to say please put my application on hold for another 10 years.

But are they putting these funds/time in proving the lot for the rural and poverty stricken masses? I don't think so.

A good way to facilitate rural infrastructure development is to encourage the Diaspora to invest. This has been proven to have worked in China. OCI will have a material effect - and that is why I (for one) think it is important for India.

Ask anyone, NRI, PIOs, and locals, who have tried to do something useful in India - what their biggest hurdle was, they will list the bureaucracy and corruption. My guess is even the PM is helpless in front of them. These bureaucrats can help the most by getting out of the way. Implement the legislation, it doesn't take 3 years. You have the visa stickers already, just process the applications like a PIO and stick the visa on the passports - simple - I'll show you how!!! (If you think it is more complex than this, it isn't - just look at the current sticking point on CG of Wellington's web page - problems with tamper-proof OCI certificates)

Hotdiggety asks for a satyagraha, a salt march. Lets reclaim India from these bureaucrats starting with this OCI!

Good point. Never make an investment for emotional reasons.OCI is a big step as consulates all over the world need to be ready for it.

 

[sg_orl]

OCI is a scam!

I am watching this discussion with some interest. OCI is a bureaucrat's bungled version of so called "dual citizenship." Interestingly, it's neither dual nor citizenship. Why does any kind of citizenship requires its citizens to get a visa? Why couldn't India's geneous bureaucrats issue an "Overseas Indian Passport" to travel to India?

Don't hold your breath until you actually see someone getting this OCI to even consider apply for this OCI scheme or scam.

 

[basis]

If US is incompetent then so be it. But in the UK they issue Workpermit / Resident Visa (HSMP) in four weeks for a person yet to land in the UK if all the test (most of them are pretty objective) are cleared. Even the Green Card equivalent i.e. ILR is issued on the same day if one goes for the option of application in person. And the Naturalisation application is cleared within weeks in some cases within 3-5 working days. Again in both the cases there are well defined criterion and conditions. If the case is not complicated then end to end process is completed within no time. Why cant the same be true for India ? If an application for citizenship to getting a passport can be completed within three-five weeks in the UK why does one have to wait for three-five weeks to just get a PIO card ??? And no one has forced the govt to declare dates that they can't maintain. It is the ministrys, consulates and beauracrats who are issuing one after the other different dates. They can take all their time to complete their work and then come out and declare the dates for the scheme to start. It is utterly foolish and unprofessional to declare dates, take forms, take money from people and then keep postponing the dates.

I am prepared to give as many days as the govt needs to make the scheme working (personally don't believe it should take more than couple of months to arrange everything as nothing great is really being offerred. It is just life time PIO). But what hurts is the display of utter chaos, lack of co-ordination between differnt ministry's, departments, consulates.

 

[qwert97]

Oci

When the OCI had opened in November, I had applied for the OCI. At the time of making the application I was promised that the time frame for getting the OCI certificate was 90 days.

In any other country of the world if there is a delay in processing the application they would:
1. Notify you that there is a delay
2. Give a date when the processing is expected to be completed.
3. Give you an option i.e. if you want you can withdraw the application and be subject to full refund.
4. Not change the rules and conditions for processing the application.
5. would not classify a 11 month delay in processing the applications as a 'temporory delay'.

In our case:
1. No notification, no refund, no expected date
2. Change the terms andd conditions for processing the application.
3. If you call embassy nobody is ready to make any commitment; cannot speak to the ambassador/ Consulate general (since he is not avialable to general public), no emails are answered, no reason for delay given, false dates issued in press.


In other democracies the politicians, Bureaucrats and the embassy staff are answerable to the public. Something needs to change if India is going to lead the world in the 21st century.

 

[akkcausa]

Re: 529

OCI is a big step as consulates all over the world need to be ready for it.

As others in this forum have pointed out, OCI has been diluted into nothing more than a visa. What big step are we talking about here for the past 3 years?

The OCI was approved 3 years ago in 2002 by Parliament and signed by President of India. It was suspended only so that the new government could get more credit for 'expanding' it. There was no reason why the applications from the original 16 countries could not be processed in this time. Even the so-called application simplfication is a sham. The application has the same set of questions and not enough space to write anything. The only difference is that in place of one form for each applicant, there is one for a family. I cannot believe that this took a whole year.

If you look back at the past year, different ministers and bureaucrats have given absolutely false or incorrect information every few weeks (starting August 15/September/October 15th/November 14th). Now just to make it a big point in the upcoming PBD, it appears they have held up everything. If the government is not ready, they should at least stop making false statements.

Consider this - over 2000 applicants have paid over $500,000 and no one knows what is going on for over an year. Who else except the Indian government and bureacracy can do this? There may be long waiting times in other countries (US for GC, citizenship) but we do not get new tales every week and nowhere does one pay money and not even get the real status.

If the HCI in London had no idea about OCI even after the 'announcement' of November 14th (this is even on the PBD website), this shows how efficient the process is.

 

[Hotdiggety]

The lack of a tamper-proof visa certificate, is the most ridiculous excuse I've ever heard of. The existing visas are already on tamper-proof, certificate type paper, which is stuck on your passport. The details on it are custom-printed on what seems to be a dot-matrix printer. All they had to do was change the visa type to "U", and the validity to "unlimited". That would have been it. Alternatively, they could simply have altered the PIO booklet slightly.

They're not doing this for the same reason that the USCIS didn't implement PERM for so long. They don't WANT to. They don't want too many foreigners coming in too quickly, and neither does the Indian bureaucracy.

 

[PIO1]

I too was told 3 months in December. And then it was put on hold so it could be "simplified". I think we were lied to. How can simplification result in things taking longer? They should have told us that they had some administrative problems or something.

Because this OCI is so watered down, all they really had to do is prop up the PIO. Extend the validity, remove restrictions etc. At least with the PIO you get something that looks like a passport!

I think the whole thing was a promise too difficult to implement (because it would have required a change to the constitution to do it correctly) and they have spent 3 years trying to save face with various lame excuses.

All I am saying is that they should have, and should from now, just come forward and tell us the truth, what is the harm there?

 

[PIO1]

The lack of a tamper-proof visa certificate, is the most ridiculous excuse I've ever heard of. The existing visas are already on tamper-proof, certificate type paper, which is stuck on your passport. The details on it are custom-printed on what seems to be a dot-matrix printer. All they had to do was change the visa type to "U", and the validity to "unlimited". That would have been it. Alternatively, they could simply have altered the PIO booklet slightly.

Exactly - in my country the Indian Consulate don't even use a printer, they write on the visa by hand, complete with the signature green pen!

 

[boggavarapu]

Oic

Like many of you, I feel quite disappointed with the delays and uncertainities with this scheme. Having already paid $275X4 - I don't have the slightest hope they would do any refund in my case although we already have PIO Cards.

Soon after November 14, 05, I spoke with an official at Indian Consulate in the USA. He has confirmed that they have now written to India seeking permission to clear the OIC applications that were submitted to them last year in the first place. Simultaneousl, they also sought clarification from the Indian Govt. whether a refund is due to the PIO Card holders who already applied!!

I am not holding my breath on the refund at all. I remember when the PIO Card was first introduced few years ago, the fee initially was set at $1000 and then it was reduced to $365 or so. But people who already paid $1000 at that time never got any refund. It is a similar scenario.

I lost all my confidence in Indian Govt. I also feel that our people who attend PBD should boycott attending the meetings hereafter to demonstrate the disappointment.

 

[fitness99]

This is bad! It appears we cannot take any officials for their word anymore! Based on all that has been going on, this appears to be a money making scheme compared to the PIO card.

 

[bubbette]

Has anyone tried asking Indian Ministers why they are being such incompetents?

Of course, the Minister for NRIs, Tytler, is trying to evade indictment for mass murder...

The Indian news coverage on this issue has been even more abysmal than usual. Rah-rah hype, the usual complete ignorance of the issues, absence of news, and failure to report the realities or ask the tough questions reflecting good homework.

Recently I saw an article about Israelis applying for OINC. So perhaps the procedure has been started there? Or is it just the money collection?

 

[PIO1]

Israel was one of the new countries added to the list - so what we did 12 months ago they did now - all hype no plan.

This would be quite funny if it wasn't sad. look at this:

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/nov/21nri.htm

Oscar Fernandes vows increased outreach to NRIs

Newly-appointed Overseas Indian Affairs Minister Oscar Fernandes Monday said an increased outreach to Non Resident Indians would be one of the key priorities in his new portfolio.
"I think we can provide them with more facilities, create more opportunities for them to set up industry back home and declare some more free economic zones in consultation with other departments and ministries," he told reporters after taking charge. He also pledged to eliminate bottlenecks to dual-citizenship efforts for NRIs across the world.

"We will try to remove the bottlenecks. But it depends upon how other countries respond to the Indian moves," the Minister remarked. Fernandes said his ministry would also explore areas that require support of the country's former citizens who have built their lives abroad.

Pllllllease! How on earth are the US, the UK or the other countries stopping the OCI? Does he have any clue? Great we have a new minister, but please give us someone who thinks before talking - we are not fools! And why does the media still call it dual-citizenship? Someone should correct them and tell them it is just a new visa class.

 

[qwert97]

Oci

In my opinion we should all get together and do something about it. Since more or less everyone share the same opinion lets use this power to try and turn the wheels of indian bureaucracy. As a first step in this direction I have sent an email to the PMO's office and have written to the editor of Hindustan times. Apparently the opinion was publised in Surfers corner of Hindustan times. The email address of the editor is sshekhar@hindustantimes.com. The email address of the secretary of Minister of Overseas citizenship is secretary@moia.nic.in (Krishna Kumar). The email address of JOint Secretary( Diaspora Services Division) is jsnri@mea.gov.in. Here is the email that I got in response:

>Dear Mr Kumar
>
>Thanks for writing to HindustanTimes.com. We are happy to inform you that
>your opinion has been published in the Surfers' Corner of
>HindustanTimes.com. Do let us know your opinion.
>
>We hope you would continue contributing your valuable thoughts to us.
>
>With warm regards
>Vijay Kumar Soni

I do not expect a reply from PMO's office. Perhaps we can write to the Consulate General, Overases Minister etc.

 

[fitness99]

Israel was one of the new countries added to the list - so what we did 12 months ago they did now - all hype no plan.

This would be quite funny if it wasn't sad. look at this:



Pllllllease! How on earth are the US, the UK or the other countries stopping the OCI? Does he have any clue? Great we have a new minister, but please give us someone who thinks before talking - we are not fools! And why does the media still call it dual-citizenship? Someone should correct them and tell them it is just a new visa class.

I agree ! If it is not Dual Citizenship, why would other countries care?