India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)

[Hotdiggety]

The Government of India is currently in the process of preparing a scheme to register 'Overseas Indian Citizens' (OCI) and to provide them with a special life long visa. The Citizenship Act (1955) was recently amended by the Parliament in this regard and assent of the President is awaited.

Somebody explain to me why, to establish a category of lifelong visa (i.e. the new U visa), parliament needs to amend the Citizenship Act.

They shouldn't have to. What they've come up with is a permanent resident visa, not citizenship. They're either trying to make it look like they're offering us dual citizenship when they aren't, or they themselves are very confused about what citizenship really means. It's scary either way.

 

[havefun]

Despite posting the information on Ministry of Home Affairs Web site, the earliest I think that this life long visa will start on next PBD which will be around Jan 10th of 2006 or so. I am guessing so because there is no other major dates coming between now and next PBD. If it starts earlier then it is good for just-aquired US Citizens.

 

[mangal969]

I doubt they would hold on for that long.The government is currently receiving a lot of flak for delaying so long and 3 months more would be suicidal.Some "local"political crisis notwithstanding i would expect it to come soon.PM Singh is coming here on Sept 11th.Maybe before that

 

[mangal969]

The Government of India is currently in the process of preparing a scheme to register 'Overseas Indian Citizens' (OCI) and to provide them with a special life long visa. The Citizenship Act (1955) was recently amended by the Parliament in this regard and assent of the President is awaited.

Somebody explain to me why, to establish a category of lifelong visa (i.e. the new U visa), parliament needs to amend the Citizenship Act.

Doesnt make any sense to me either, but i guess it's best left to the powers that be.....
Sounding optimistic maybe they will confer more rights in the future

And from wherever you got the quote,,the information is incorrect.Presidential assent was given sometime at the end of August

 

[mangal969]

The US department of state as a policy discourages (but does not prohibit)Dual Citizenship of any kind.Since this is just a "citizenship" in name but in terms of rights and priviliges is like a permanent residence.What would be the state departments stand on Overseas Citizenship of India ?

 

[fitness99]

Some information from the U.S Department of State on OIC

SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES: In 2003, India passed a bill that allows persons of Indian origin in sixteen countries (subsequently extended to almost all countries), including the United States, to apply for a form of dual citizenship known as “Overseas Citizens of India” (OCI). The government recently announced that the process for a person to become an OCI will be launched on August 15, 2005 or shortly thereafter. However, many specific details regarding what rights and obligations apply to a person who applies for OCI status have yet to be clarified. Presently, the Government of India offers a special visa for “Persons of Indian Origin” (PIO). It is contemplated that OCI status will be similar to PIO status. At present, the PIO card allows a person to enter and exit the country without a visa for almost any purpose for any period of time, without the requirement of registering with immigration authorities. However, PIOs cannot vote in Indian elections, and are also subject to other restrictions, such as the ability to own certain types of real property in India. The Embassy understands that similar restrictions may apply to OCIs. The Indian government has indicated that a person who applies for OCI status will not be required to take an oath of allegiance to India. Accordingly, at this time, it is not clear whether an OCI would legally be considered a “national” of India. Information on how to apply for PIO or OCI status can be found on the Indian Embassy’s website at http://www.indianembassy.org/consular/index.htm.

Any person who is considered to have dual nationality as a citizen of both India and the U.S is subject to all Indian laws. Moreover, a dual national also may be subject to other laws and regulations that impose special obligations on Indian citizens, such as taxation. In some instances such as arrest, dual nationality may hamper U.S. Government efforts to provide assistance abroad. Additional general information about dual nationality is available at http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html.

 

[Hotdiggety]

Accordingly, at this time, it is not clear whether an OCI would legally be considered a “national” of India.

The Indian government has confused not only us, but other governments as well. This 'U' visa plan is clearly not citizenship. Therefore I can't see any reason why any government anywhere in the world would object to it.

In fact, if a different visa category was all that they wanted to create, they could have done this years ago, without any legal changes being necessary. They seem to have gone to great lengths to delay giving us the freedom to enter and leave India as we please.

 

[mangal969]

I guess if the US depratment of state goes through the newly posted rules (specially the U visa), they will realise that OIC's are not Indian Nationals.
I guess this is one more aspect i would want cleared before i go in for an OIC.If i were in some trouble, I would rather not have the State Dept squabbling over the fact that i am an OIC while the Indian Govt saying that since I am a US citizen (primarily) they would not be able to help me out.
But the text seems to show they're not bothered much about the PIO ,so my guess is they wont bother much about this.
Maybe we should gift the babu's in Delhi a dictionary and theasaurus so that next time they atleast can check up the words they use

 

[mallusan]

It goes back to what I said earlier in the thread. What Parliament passed is dual citizenship, but the government has distorted it into this permanent visa thing.

Eventually court action will be needed to clarify this. The constitution of India does not allow for different degrees of citizenship.

 

[Hotdiggety]

It goes back to what I said earlier in the thread. What Parliament passed is dual citizenship, but the government has distorted it into this permanent visa thing.

Eventually court action will be needed to clarify this. The constitution of India does not allow for different degrees of citizenship.

If real dual citizenship is unconstitutional in India, then it doesn't matter what Parliament did or did not pass. It becomes irrelevant. Suing the government could not reverse the unconstitutionality of their legislation, if they have indeed passed such a law.

That said, it's not that hard to change the Indian constitution. It has already been changed close to 100 times, often for very trivial reasons. If the government was serious about giving us dual citizenship, then they would change the constitution to accommodate us. They clearly are not willing to do this. From that, I can only infer that they really aren't serious about this whole issue at all.

 

[fitness99]

If real dual citizenship is unconstitutional in India, then it doesn't matter what Parliament did or did not pass. It becomes irrelevant. Suing the government could not reverse the unconstitutionality of their legislation, if they have indeed passed such a law.

That said, it's not that hard to change the Indian constitution. It has already been changed close to 100 times, often for very trivial reasons. If the government was serious about giving us dual citizenship, then they would change the constitution to accommodate us. They clearly are not willing to do this. From that, I can only infer that they really aren't serious about this whole issue at all.

Hotdiggety - I tend to agree with you. If they want to amend the constitution, they could have done it a while back. As long as the NRIs are flowing foreign exchange into India (via various investments), the Indian government does not see a reason to pass anything. The only reason (I think), they are even entertaining the idea of OIC, is to give the NRI's the impression that they are doing their best! I am sure they want to boast about their accomplishments in getting OIC implemented at the PBD coming up in January.

P.S: I do think they simplified the application form

 

[mangal969]

I went through the MHA website and yes the application form is much much easier .In fact it's fairly straightforward.
Only one thing stymed me:In case you are claiming OIC as a child of an Indian citizen,they want proof of the relationship between the applicant and the citizen.
Does anyone have documented proof that their parents/grandparents are really theirs??
I just hope this doesn't lead to some crazy stipulation wherein our indian citizen relatives would have to rush to get a notarized affidavit ! !

 

[mangal969]

I think it's just a case that they are not yet "ready" to accept NRI/PIO's into the "mainstream" just yet.Come ,invest and go is there message at this time.
I guess if you stop viewing it as a dual citizenship and view it for what it is-a lifelong hassle free entry visa with no restrictions/conditions- it will be better.
Maybe in the future they will dissolve these diffferences (2020 or so).
Till then i guess be happy with what we get.

 

[mallusan]

If real dual citizenship is unconstitutional in India, then it doesn't matter what Parliament did or did not pass. It becomes irrelevant. Suing the government could not reverse the unconstitutionality of their legislation, if they have indeed passed such a law.

You miss my point. Dual citizenship is not unconstitutional. What is unconstitutional is arbitrary limits on some citizens (i.e. not allowed to vote etc...).

What appears to me is that Parliament provided for citizenship to certain persons, but then MEA decided to take away some of their rights. Definitely an actonable situation.

 

[Hotdiggety]

You miss my point. Dual citizenship is not unconstitutional. What is unconstitutional is arbitrary limits on some citizens (i.e. not allowed to vote etc...).

What appears to me is that Parliament provided for citizenship to certain persons, but then MEA decided to take away some of their rights. Definitely an actonable situation.

No, my understanding is that dual citizenship IS unconstitutional. That's what this whole rigamarole has been about - the government trying to get around the constitution without actually changing it. If dual citizenship had not been unconstitutional, all of us would be carrying two passports right now, and this would never have been an issue at all.

The constitution is the primary source of all law. Parliament cannot pass laws that contravene it. Even if they did, they would be struck down, unless the constitution itself is changed.

 

[mahabharatiya]

Against dual citizenship

I am sure most of you here may be the citizens of US or thinking on becoming one.
If you are an asylee who claimed India is a threat to your life and convinced this to USCIS and made your way for GC and later for a US citizenship, I dont think Indian government should even consider giving you a visa, forget about getting back the citizenship.
I dont understand some people in this forum, who say Indian government is confused about what it is talking about. I saw on one of the links on the first page of this forum, it is very clear from the govt of India, that its constitutiuon do not allow dual citizeship (which I hope never change).

The bill on Overseas citizens of India (OCI) has been made smartly, It clearly shows the intentions of the govt. of India....NO DUAL CITIZENSHIP, may be they might someday allow you to carry the passport with the same provisions as follows:

Persons registered as OCI have not been given any voting rights, election to LokSabha/Rajya Sabha/Legislative Assembly/Council, holding Constitutional posts such as President, Vice President, Judge of Supreme Court/High Court etc. Registered OCIs shall
be entitled to following benefits:
(i) Multiple entry, multi-purpose life long visa to visit India;
(ii) Exemption from reporting to Police authorities for any length of stay in India;
and
(iii) Parity with NRIs in financial, economic and educational fields except in the
acquisition of agricultural or plantation properties.

I LOVE INDIA,
BHARAT MATA KI JAI

 

[bubbette]

Is the actual text of what Parliament passed (this time) available? I have the text of what was passed in 2003.

The diagnosis that Parliament passed dual citizenship, is accurate. In 2003, the text clearly specified that those who acquired citizenship of one of the 16 nations, AFTER the date of passage of the bill (President signed it in Dec. 2003), would NOT by doing so lose Indian citizenship. However, as long as they hold another citizenship, they would not be able to vote, hold national office or get a security clearance.

I thought the present govt. would simply extend that to all nations that would allow it (except Pakistan which is really not a nation anyway..) and put in a waiver to the stipulation about holding high office, for descendants / relatives of the Nehru family.

What exactly did they pass? Clearly, the Ministry of External Affairs (Foreigners' Division) and the various Embassies/ Consulates and other Babucracies are NOT going to tell us what the Parliament passed.

Nor are the uber-Patriots who don't read what their elected representatives voted into law.

If someone finds a url to the actual law passed recently, please post it here. Thanks.

 

[Hotdiggety]

Is the actual text of what Parliament passed (this time) available? I have the text of what was passed in 2003.

The diagnosis that Parliament passed dual citizenship, is accurate. In 2003, the text clearly specified that those who acquired citizenship of one of the 16 nations, AFTER the date of passage of the bill (President signed it in Dec. 2003), would NOT by doing so lose Indian citizenship. However, as long as they hold another citizenship, they would not be able to vote, hold national office or get a security clearance.

Are you *sure* that's what the 2003 bill says? It seems to me these folks are very confused about just what characteristics define a "citizen". I've always believed that in a democracy, the right to vote and to hold political office, is a fundamental defining feature of citizenship. So is the right to not have your citizenship stripped away at the whim of any government, and to carry an Indian passport. If they're still saying that people can retain citizenship but not have the right to vote etc, that's just double-talk of the worst kind.

So don't read the bill literally. See what the effect of it is. What does it really mean if you are the kind of "citizen" they say you can remain? What are the things you can or cannot do? Do you really think you are a citizen of India under those terms, or are they just using the word loosely, without giving you any of the rights that normally come with it?

I still maintain that as long as the Indian constitution continues to outlaw dual citizenship, they will never truly make us dual citizens. The constitution can and should be changed. I'm very surprised that more Indians living abroad haven't raised that issue in so many words.

 

[mangal969]

The MHA website "dual citizenship" section has the full text
mha.nic.in
The "foreigners division" has the information on the Citizenship Act.

 

[mangal969]

Mahabharatiya-I dont think dual citizenship is for those who have gained citizenship as an asylee.If you look at the form on the MHA website,they specifically do ask if you have taken political asylum.
Bubette,Hotdigetty-If you take focus away from the title and concentrate on the specifics, you will see that the government of india has not granted dual citizenship per se.They have modified only the citizenship act to create this new entity.OCI's do not have any of the rights and priviliges of full citizens,but neither do they have the duties.OCI in it's current form cannot be even considered as a secondary or lower-rung citizenship.Fact is OCI exists only as an investment/development incentive.And if you probably look at it in that sense,some of this confusion will be lifted.