India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)

[boggavarapu]

Overseas Indian Citizenship

I am guessing it could be on the occasion of DIWALI !

 

[enjoylife]

Hello everyone,
This is the first time I am posting on this thread. I have a question for people subscribing to this thread. There is a lot of info on this thread and after having read each post I guess its a situation of information overload now for me.

I became a US citizen yesterday. There is a flat that was bought in India. It was purchased in my father's name but I sent all the money from here. He had bought the flat for me. Since I am no longer an Indian citizen what is the implication now. Can I now own the flat in my name? If so is there any tax and/or penalty implication? Will it help if I apply for the PIO card so that I can get the flat transfered in my name and own it legally in my name. Going by what others have posted a lot of fellow Indians didn't feel PIO card is of much use to them and so why pay the money to apply for it. Any opinions/guidance/advice will be highly appreciated.
Thanks.

 

[mangal969]

Hello everyone,
This is the first time I am posting on this thread. I have a question for people subscribing to this thread. There is a lot of info on this thread and after having read each post I guess its a situation of information overload now for me.

I became a US citizen yesterday. There is a flat that was bought in India. It was purchased in my father's name but I sent all the money from here. He had bought the flat for me. Since I am no longer an Indian citizen what is the implication now. Can I now own the flat in my name? If so is there any tax and/or penalty implication? Will it help if I apply for the PIO card so that I can get the flat transfered in my name and own it legally in my name. Going by what others have posted a lot of fellow Indians didn't feel PIO card is of much use to them and so why pay the money to apply for it. Any opinions/guidance/advice will be highly appreciated.
Thanks.

You need to be a bit more specific in your question
If your father is alive he could have transferred it to your name day before yesterday.As far as i know, as of today he can't.
If your father is no more and has willed you the flat you can keep it in your name for 6 months,sell it and bring the money here
If your father is no more and has not willed it to you you have to go through the courts and then go for the 6 month period.

There are no tax implications or penalties that i know of for taking the flat in your name.Only thing is as a US citizen now you cant just hold property in India.

If your father is alive wait for the OIC and then have it transferred in your own name.
PIO is just spending a lot of money for fewer benefits (which you may have just read).If you have no choice(the flat has to be transferred today) you can go ahead for the PIO and then convert it to an OIC after 10 years or so .

 

[enjoylife]

Thanks a lot for your reply Mangal969. I really appreciate it. To clarify my father is alive. I am not in a rush to get it transferred in my name. Since it was originally planned to be for me and I paid for it, I just want to make sure it gets transferred to my name. It could not be transferred to my name before I became a citizen bec it is still not complete and the possession has not been given to us. It is expected to be handed over to us next month. I do not want to bring the money here. The flat will remain in my name there. Since I am in no rush to transfer it in my name I dont see any benefit in taking the PIO card and pay so much money.

Couple of questions now for you. Can an OIC hold a flat in their name or only agricultural land? If so will I have to pay any tax or penalty? Also if a parent wills a flat to his son (the son is a US citizen) do I have to pay any tax or penalty? I wonder why you say convert the PIO to OIC after 10 years?Can the PIO convert to OIC without any fees in 10 yrs ? Thank you so much.

 

[mangal969]

Thanks a lot for your reply Mangal969. I really appreciate it. To clarify my father is alive. I am not in a rush to get it transferred in my name. Since it was originally planned to be for me and I paid for it, I just want to make sure it gets transferred to my name. It could not be transferred to my name before I became a citizen bec it is still not complete and the possession has not been given to us. It is expected to be handed over to us next month. I do not want to bring the money here. The flat will remain in my name there. Since I am in no rush to transfer it in my name I dont see any benefit in taking the PIO card and pay so much money.

Couple of questions now for you. Can an OIC hold a flat in their name or only agricultural land? If so will I have to pay any tax or penalty? Also if a parent wills a flat to his son (the son is a US citizen) do I have to pay any tax or penalty? I wonder why you say convert the PIO to OIC after 10 years?Can the PIO convert to OIC without any fees in 10 yrs ? Thank you so much.

For all your above questions there are no penalties.Tax angle is better discussed with your CA in India.But i dont think it will come to much if handled properly.

OIC can hold flat,office and land other than agricultural land (unless you inherit it).If your parent wills it to you and you dont have an OIC/PIO it will be transferred to your name only for the purpose of sale for 6 months or sf course here also your CA can advise you better.

Currently the OIC to PIO conversion is going to cost $25,irrespective of the no of years you are going to have it.A PIO card however costs $300 +.A direct OIC costs 275 and a PIO to OIC costs around 350.So there's no point going for a PIO if you're not going to use it.Hence i said 10 years (A PIO card is valid for 15 years only).It wasn't meant to be a concrete figure.

Basically I think you ought to wait for an OIC and then apply for transfer of your flat.As a precaution your father can make you a nominee of the flat or will it to you.If the situation is stable don't rush it.

 

[Magician]

Thanks for the clarifications.
Indian citizen living & working abroad has no right to get the interest rate available to DOMESTIC accounts. No distinction between NRI and NR- non-Indian citizen.

After getting US citizenship if person resides in india with OIC for long time (say over 5 years), can he invest in domestic accounts? If so what are tax implications as compared to local indian citizens?

If anyone knows & forward a web link for these kind of queries it would be helpful.

Thanks

 

[HKSARdweller]

Has anyone thought about this: if OIC is dressed up as only a life-long visa (i.e. permanent residence) and not citizenship, why the big fuss about accommodating citizens only of those countries which allow dual citizenship? Why should say Malaysia or Singapore have something against it if one of their citizens gets long term residence somewhere else while retaining their citizenship? Now I read Indian government are discussing dual citizenship pact with the Philippines. What's the point?

Second question - this one's about PIO card. I know it allows you to visit India with few restrictions. But does it allow you to work in India? Can employers in India hire a foreign citizen who has a PIO card, without having to apply for work visa?

Thanks, anyone who knows.

 

[mallusan]

Has anyone thought about this: if OIC is dressed up as only a life-long visa (i.e. permanent residence) and not citizenship, why the big fuss about accommodating citizens only of those countries which allow dual citizenship?

Goes back to exactly what I said before. What Parliament passed is Dual Citizenship. MEA or MHA is futzing around with it and distorting the law.

 

[Hotdiggety]

Has anyone thought about this: if OIC is dressed up as only a life-long visa (i.e. permanent residence) and not citizenship, why the big fuss about accommodating citizens only of those countries which allow dual citizenship? Why should say Malaysia or Singapore have something against it if one of their citizens gets long term residence somewhere else while retaining their citizenship? Now I read Indian government are discussing dual citizenship pact with the Philippines. What's the point?

Oh, absolutely. In fact, I posted the same thing myself a while ago. If there is no real dual citizenship, then a dual citizenship pact is pointless. They are doing this either to confuse us into believing we're getting the real thing, or they're very confused about the concept themselves. Possibly both. Bear in mind that this is a country renowned for the stupidity of its laws.

Second question - this one's about PIO card. I know it allows you to visit India with few restrictions. But does it allow you to work in India? Can employers in India hire a foreign citizen who has a PIO card, without having to apply for work visa?

Thanks, anyone who knows.

I believe it does. The only substantive difference is that with a PIO card, you need to register with the police after 6 months. With the OIC visa, you do not. Another illogical difference. Why should anyone legally admitted to that country have to register at all, anywhere or at anytime?

 

[Hotdiggety]

Goes back to exactly what I said before. What Parliament passed is Dual Citizenship. MEA or MHA is futzing around with it and distorting the law.

Here is the part of the Indian Constitution that pertains to citizenship:

http://www.constitution.org/cons/india/p02.html

If you see Article 9, it quite clearly prohibits dual citizenship.

Now here's the source of the confusion. If you see Articles 10 and 11, they seem to indicate that regardless of whatever the preceding articles may state, Parliament still has the right to pass any law relating to citizenship, and such law may even override the Articles in that Part.

So if I'm reading this correctly, the constitutional prohibition on dual citizenship is a very weak one, and the government of the day can override it at will. If that is the case, then this government could easily grant us all real dual citizenship if it wants to. The constitutional prohibition is just an excuse not to do so.

To continue further along that line of thought, look at this description of the OIC program from the MHA's web-site (caution - pdf document):

http://mha.nic.in/oci-intro.pdf

It starts of by saying that the Constitution does not allow dual citizenship. Maybe someone should show them articles 10 and 11.

I'm convinced that they aren't granting us real dual citizenship because they don't really want us there. Our ideas about individual liberty, freedom from corruption and excessive red tape, are quite contrary to the entrenched interests of the bureacracy. They are going to keep delaying even the OIC program as long as they can.

 

[sg_orl]

Indian bureaucrats are famous for incremental behavior and measured change, if any. Remember they came up with a PIO card concept and made money, and gave very little. Now OIC is again the same way, make money and hand out a little bit more. Don't be surprised if we go thru' the same thing and they revise the OIC to an enhanced OIC with another name in a few years. And you guessed it, they will give out a little more and again make more money.

This is such a short term thinking. They just want to stay busy with the nitty-gritty details, and keep themselves happy with the power. They need to open up the tourist visa regime drastically not just for the PIO/NRI, but also for citizens of the wealthier countries. So many eastern European and asian countries welcome the tourists from the wealthier countries with no visas needed for 30 to 90 days. That kind of movement brings money into the economy, but sorry that does NOT help our bureaucrats in their quest for making money and exerting power. Their pride also gets hurt that they won't get the reciprocal offer from the wealthier nations for visa free travel.

Same thing with the real dual citizenship. There is no real legal issue with granting it. Most people would bring more money into the country, help the economy, but the bureacrats will loose out. Forget about the dual citizenship, India does not even allow the Indian citizen's living abroad to vote in the Indian elections.

So my advise is take a look at what actually comes out of this drawn out process of OIC, and then make up you mind if it's worth it.

 

[mangal969]

After getting US citizenship if person resides in india with OIC for long time (say over 5 years), can he invest in domestic accounts? If so what are tax implications as compared to local indian citizens?

If anyone knows & forward a web link for these kind of queries it would be helpful.

Thanks

No he cannot invest in domestic accounts as far as i know (unless you convert to full Indian citizenship).
About the tax it's pretty complicated you get some "RNOR" status for a couple of years (which is as good as NRI status) and then Ordinary Resident status.I'm sure there will be exact clarifications on this soon.

 

[mangal969]

The thing to be understood is this:OIC is just to attract PIO wealth.It has nothing substantiative as far as rights go.It's just a medium for PIO's to invest in India and hold on to their ancestral properties (the sale of which could create a forex outflow) which the government sees as a win-win situation.
OIC by no stretch of the imagination is a dual citizenship.It can be considered as a more liberal form of permanent residenceship.
I guess we should take it one step at a time.We'd have to first accept what is given (Hope the registration starts soon) and then push for more rights.
OIC is just a misnomer.

 

[mangal969]

Anyone notice that even though the MHA has put up everything re:OIC on their website,NONE of the embassy websites have this updated information ? Goes to show that OIC isn't going to start anytime soon.
Another shining example of Indian Babudom at work.Goes to show that even the government cannot be trusted on their word (If you remember the government had announced "around 15th August 2005").
Who would really want to invest anything in a country that has such an "amazing" reaction time ?

 

[mallusan]

Here is the part of the Indian Constitution that pertains to citizenship:

http://www.constitution.org/cons/india/p02.html

If you see Article 9, it quite clearly prohibits dual citizenship.

No person shall be a citizen of India by virtue of article 5, or be deemed to be a citizen of India by virtue of article 6 or article 8, if he has voluntarily acquired the citizenship of any foreign State.

Article 5, 6 and 8 do not really apply to someone born in India after 1950 (the majority of Indian citizens). So, one can at the most say that the constitution does not allow for dual citizenship under certain conditions. And as you say, art. 11 does trump the above, so if parliament allows it, then dual citizenship is allowed.

I say parliament has indeed allowed it, and this can be proved in a court of law.

 

[qwert97]

Dual

I am convinced that the government has no plans to implement it soon. I am wondering what new announcements they are going to make on January 9th 2006(Pravasi diwas). To save their face they will would want to implement it before that date.

Perhaps they will announce when the overseas citizenship will become applicable

 

[UncleH1]

Hi ,
My kid is due next year early.Currently i am in the US but i am planning to permanently move to india after some time.So can you please let me know

1) What sort of Indian Visa is needed for the kid to stay in india with us?
2) If the kid wants to become a indian citizen what is needed to be done ?Can a indian passport be issued over here itself.
3) If the kid is on a indian visa will he have any problem to go to school in india.

SO CAN YOU PLEASE GUIDE ME IN THE BEST POSSIBLE WAY.

 

[Hotdiggety]

Hi ,
My kid is due next year early.Currently i am in the US but i am planning to permanently move to india after some time.So can you please let me know

1) What sort of Indian Visa is needed for the kid to stay in india with us?
2) If the kid wants to become a indian citizen what is needed to be done ?Can a indian passport be issued over here itself.
3) If the kid is on a indian visa will he have any problem to go to school in india.

SO CAN YOU PLEASE GUIDE ME IN THE BEST POSSIBLE WAY.

These are questions you'd be better off posing to an Indian consular officer. Call or e-mail the mission nearest you. They'll tell you.

 

[mangal969]

I am convinced that the government has no plans to implement it soon. I am wondering what new announcements they are going to make on January 9th 2006(Pravasi diwas). To save their face they will would want to implement it before that date.

Perhaps they will announce when the overseas citizenship will become applicable

What really bugs me is that they are absolutely ready even today as far as legislation and rules and everything else is concerned.I'm sure informing embassies all over the world would take not more than a day and printing and sending the stickers and papers worldwide would take not more than a week.
But they have crossed all that.The only thing that is lacking is someone to have the will to actually get up from their comfortable seats and WORK !

If they do delay it a lot it will be a wrong signal to investors all over the world as well as the NRI/PIO community.Nobody likes remaining a stranger in their own home for too long.

 

[lcauser]

The reason for the delay could be that Indian authorities in Delhi have to send the application back to the respective consulate/process or make a decision on these applications.