India Dual Citizenship Mega Thread (Merged)

The India Dual Citizenship will be Operational:

  • In 2003

    Votes: 4 20.0%
  • In 2004

    Votes: 11 55.0%
  • Sometime after 2004

    Votes: 4 20.0%
  • I am skeptical if this will happen

    Votes: 1 5.0%

  • Total voters
    20
  • Poll closed .
akkcausa said:
The Indian Citizenship Act was amended for OCI. It is a different matter that the final OCI is diluted and changed to a glorified U visa -

http://rajyasabha.nic.in/legislative/amendbills/XXXIX_2003.pdf

I read through this bill, trying to understand what the point of this law was, and I can't see any. Again, in their minds they seem to have confused the notion of permanent residence (like a green card) with citizenship. They cannot give us the latter, because of the constitutional prohibition, and they didn't need to pass any law to give us the former. This is a pointless law.

I really can't understand their reluctance to change the constitution over this issue. Goodness knows they've done it often enough for a whole bunch of other stuff. If they were to do that, we wouldn't need any special procedures for people who live outside of India. An Indian citizen could always remain an Indian citizen, have political rights, carry a passport, and never have to worry about having some bureaucrat take away their right to live there. That is not how things are going to work now.

I understand that a lifetime visa may itself be worth having. I know I'd certainly get one. However, there seems to be some real confusion by some posters on this board about what this OIC plan is about. My only purpose in posting here is to help them understand what it is they're getting, and what they are not.
 
Move On.

One thing beats me. Why people of indian origin (mostly recent immigrants) are so eager for dual citizenship?
What are the extra benefits people need more than PIO? Do they know that:
1. Forgo the assistance of US govt. while traveling to other country?
2. Have problems while applying for security clearance in US
3. Can theoretically be drafted into military in India (if it ever happens).

My suggestion is move on. You have made a decision to become the citizen of USA.
Stick to that decision and don't look back. PIO is sufficient for all practical purposes.
You can work, educate your children in India, start a business etc.
 
chanakya101 said:
What are the extra benefits people need more than PIO?

Dude, you will never get it. We are Indians who don't want to to renounce our Indian citizenship. The benefit to us of dual citizenship is that we can acquire citizenship in the country that we live in.
 
chanakya101 said:
One thing beats me. Why people of indian origin (mostly recent immigrants) are so eager for dual citizenship?
What are the extra benefits people need more than PIO? Do they know that:
1. Forgo the assistance of US govt. while traveling to other country?
2. Have problems while applying for security clearance in US
3. Can theoretically be drafted into military in India (if it ever happens).

My suggestion is move on. You have made a decision to become the citizen of USA.
Stick to that decision and don't look back. PIO is sufficient for all practical purposes.
You can work, educate your children in India, start a business etc.

There is a saying..... "You can take Indian out of India but you can not take INDIA out of an Indian" :D

I think one of the major reasons for people taking up US citizenship is to avoid every 6 months mandatory entry in the country to maintain the Green Card.

If GC maintainance rule is changed from 6 months to longer period.... say 5 Years..... I am sure lot of people might not be interested in giving up their
Indian Citizenship.

Just a thought !!!
 
I would like to become USC because as a USC, I won't require visa to around 20 counties or so. That is a big benefit to me. Besides, as a USC you can apply to some federal jobs which I want to do. There are many others. At the same time,I don't want to give up Indian Citizenship because my parents and my siblings are there. I want to have liberty to go back to India (for ever) when I wish to. OIC does not sound bad if Indian government has tough time amending the constitution and giving Dual Citizenship.

You correctly said that you can never take India out of Indians.

Just a thought.
 
Let's turn the question around. What is so evil about dual citzenship, that the Indian government should be SO reluctant to give us the real thing? What do they think we would possibly do, if we had two passports? Or is the bureaucracy there just trying to get back at us, just out of spite, for having dared to escape their control? Why shouldn't people have the choice to do whatever suits them and their circumstances best? They're certainly not hurting anyone else, as far as I can see.

In practice, I don't think we have a choice but to accept what we're given. I don't think it's a question of them having difficulty changing the constitution, though. I doubt that anyone has even tried. Or if they have, I certainly haven't heard about it.
 
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havefun said:
I would like to become USC because as a USC, I won't require visa to around 20 counties or so. That is a big benefit to me. Besides, as a USC you can apply to some federal jobs which I want to do. There are many others. At the same time,I don't want to give up Indian Citizenship because my parents and my siblings are there. I want to have liberty to go back to India (for ever) when I wish to. OIC does not sound bad if Indian government has tough time amending the constitution and giving Dual Citizenship.

You correctly said that you can never take India out of Indians.

Just a thought.

The list of countries you can visit as an USC without a visa...

http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/brochures/brochures_1229.html

I agree that people have their own reasons to apply for an OIC or a dual citizenship if available. I currently hold a PIO and I am happy with it for the time being :D
 
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chanakya101 said:
What are the extra benefits people need more than PIO? Do they know that:
1. Forgo the assistance of US govt. while traveling to other country?
2. Have problems while applying for security clearance in US
3. Can theoretically be drafted into military in India (if it ever happens).

Another person who got caught in by the title ! ! ! !
For points one and two which you have raised,if you read the "special cases" page on the US Dept of State website (or even in one of the previous posts of this thread),the DoS does NOT (at this point) consider OIC to be equivalent to "Indian Nationality" because you dont have to take an oath amongst other things.

For point three I guess you would have to consider this-If the US ever calls up a draft,do you think they will ever call up Green Card holders ? I certainly hope not !Same situation for India.If there is a requirement for a military draft,they would first be drafting Indian citizens.

And as to why people are so desperate for it consider this-People who have lived in India develop a certain bond with the country (A concept difficult to explain but easy to understand by experience).Also people who have migrated here have family back in India.For these people an OIC is sort of a reaffirmation of the bond to India as well as to their families.The OIC is just a psychological comfort thing.
 
fitness99 said:
I agree that people have their own reasons to apply for an OIC or a dual citizenship if available. I currently hold a PIO and I am happy with it for the time being :D

In hindsight you did do a very smart thing.In the last couple of years of the validity of your PIO, you could just put in an application for OIC.By that time (hopefully) you will have an exact idea what OIC is about and in just $25 get an OIC !
But only down side is that if you want to visit for more than 6 months you would have to go for registration.And of course the property restrictions.
 
Hotdiggety said:
Let's turn the question around. What is so evil about dual citzenship, that the Indian government should be SO reluctant to give us the real thing? What do they think we would possibly do, if we had two passports? Or is the bureaucracy there just trying to get back at us, just out of spite, for having dared to escape their control? Why shouldn't people have the choice to do whatever suits them and their circumstances best? They're certainly not hurting anyone else, as far as I can see.

In practice, I don't think we have a choice but to accept what we're given. I don't think it's a question of them having difficulty changing the constitution, though. I doubt that anyone has even tried. Or if they have, I certainly haven't heard about it.

Wow, there is some point that has you really riled up ! Or is it just you feel cheated after this long wait ? At some level, i do feel cheated myself.

But think of it this way,the bureaucracy is just testing the waters.They will eventually grant the full spectrum of rights available to natural citizens.They want to do it but in an eventual and controlled fashion so that it does not backfire upon them in the future.

I know this sounds a tad too optimistic....but it can happen

For right now the fact that i can travel in and out of India as i please and absolutely none of my rights as a USC are compromised is satisfying enough.
 
mangal969 said:
In hindsight you did do a very smart thing.In the last couple of years of the validity of your PIO, you could just put in an application for OIC.By that time (hopefully) you will have an exact idea what OIC is about and in just $25 get an OIC !
But only down side is that if you want to visit for more than 6 months you would have to go for registration.And of course the property restrictions.

I thought that the PIO and OIC have the same property restrictions? I recall that initially GOI wanted to give OIC's the right to buy/own agricultural/plantation properties (which made OIC option look more attractive than the PIO), but decided not to do that in the latest explanation of OIC. I think, I am okay that I can inherit agricultural/plantation property as a PIO.
 
Mallusan and Havefun stated the point that brings me here - the situation captured by The Boy Who Stood on The Burning Deck. I am mad as can be about the way the Indian Govt. is treating Indian citizens in this.

Did the 2003 Act promise that Indian citizenship would not be lost? Yes. Read it carefully. I think it is Section 7B-2 or something like that.

Is this significant? Yes, to Indian citizens who value Indian citizenship it is. It is the standard policy of all nations that allow "dual" citizenship that their own citizenship is PRIMARY. Britan for example says, you can go swear all you want in front of a foreign official, it matters nothing as long as you haven't sworn before an Official of Her Majesty. GOI on the other hand seems to be saying that if another country offers you citizenship, we'lll be glad to dump u, thanks very much, since Indian citizenship is second-class. This is what makes me laugh at the lofty sentiment so gloriously declared by "MahaBharatiya". Reality is 180 degrees away from that. Only those who have been faced with the choice, and taken the hassles for decades, will understand. For once, the GOI was telling us that it was OK to accept citizenship in the land where we lived, and it would not make us less Indian.

But the implementation has been utter fraud from my perspective, and I feel completely betrayed.

Now for the "can't vote" aspect. This rankled me quite a bit, but I am pretty-much reconciled to it, since it is NO DIFFERENT from the situation of an INDIAN passport-holder who lives abroad. If you haven't tried to get yourself on the voting list, I guess you won't realize that they took away your right the moment you boarded that plane. From the discussions in Parliament, it is clear that they are NOW THINKING OF allowing Indian citizens who live abroad, to vote in their home constituencies, PROVIDED THEY vote in person. No absentee ballot, no internet-enabled voting.

So what's different about OIC?

Next is "right to work in govt. jobs". This WAS a big consideration, but as u can see above and doing the number-of-years calculation, it is easy to see that this is a non-issue anymore. Public-sector retirement age in India is not that far off.

Security clearance? This is a sensitive issue in my profession, but lack thereof has allowed a freedom all these years that is denied to many of my colleagues, and it is nice to know that there is nothing secret that anyone is going to get out of you because you don't know any. Then again, if they can give a clearance to Sonia Gandhi, they can give it to me too, no problem.

Also, the OIC law is good because they say that if you have been OIC for 5 years, and then you come and settle in India, after just ONE YEAR, you can switch to becoming full resident Indian citizen again. Presumably, you have to renounce other citizenships - but think about that - most nations don't care if you renounce in front of Babus of other nations, so you will continue to be a real dual-citizen at that point.

The State Department "cautions" cited above are non-starters.

1. In the US, the govt does NOT promise to bail you out anyway, from your COUNTRY OF BIRTH. This is REGARDLESS of whether there is dual citizenship etc. I know people in a certain organization that cannot be mentioned, where they were told this in no uncertain terms. I did read that Condoleeza Rice interceded to get the Indian-American boss of that web portal released from jail, but that was more of a gentle request, not a demand - and even that raised quite a stink. In China, that would simply not work - I know of a Chinese-American professor who led a student team to China as part of his US university job. He had written some books not quite laudatory about the regime. Well... they released him some 3 or 4 months later, after a considerable amount of "interrogation" etc. Nothing the GOTUS did was of much help.

2. Dual taxation. Actually, Indian-source income is taxable in the US (US taxes worldwide income), so the "tax break" for NRI income in India exists only if you cheat on your US taxes. If you pay tax in India, then you get a tax credit on that in the US. As long as India also does not plan to tax worldwide income for OICs, this issue is also a non-issue - assuming that your fear of the IRS is greater than your greed. With computerized cooperation between law-enforcement agencies, dodging taxes is Russian Roulette.

3. Loyalty issues in the US. This is again a bogus issue, and those who raise it are essentlally racists. There are thousands, if not millions in the US who are British-Americans and French-Americans and Israeli-Americans who hold security clearance. Remember Jonathan Pollard, the guy who was convicted of selling secrets to Israel from some spy agency? The guy was an Israeli-American, as I understand. Why did he have Top Secret clearance?

Likewise there are thousands of dual citizens in the defence industries.

Why should Indian-Americans (dual citizens) be discriminated against - I mean accept such discrimination? The assumption is that the US is never going to bomb Britian, France or Israel. Until recently that was not a safe thing to say about India, but today the opinion of the GOI is that it IS a safe thing to say. That's why the dual citizenship move gained momentum at all.

Anyway, I gather that no one has seen the exact text of what has been passed.
 
havefun said:
I would like to become USC because as a USC, I won't require visa to around 20 counties or so. That is a big benefit to me. Besides, as a USC you can apply to some federal jobs which I want to do. There are many others. At the same time,I don't want to give up Indian Citizenship because my parents and my siblings are there. I want to have liberty to go back to India (for ever) when I wish to. OIC does not sound bad if Indian government has tough time amending the constitution and giving Dual Citizenship.

You correctly said that you can never take India out of Indians.

Just a thought.

Pl. go back in this thread and read some. Getting the citizenship of any country comes with some responsibilities too :) .
If you are thinking about only rights and conveniences that is fine. Then you can ignore my comments. May be the best thing for such people is to go back to India and ride the boom there

They saying " --- india out---" sounds interesting but is little short on meaning
 
bubbette said:
Did the 2003 Act promise that Indian citizenship would not be lost? Yes. Read it carefully. I think it is Section 7B-2 or something like that.

Acutally no.The point in question is reproduced below:
"Provided further that after the commencement of the Citizenship(Amendment) Act, 2003, any citizen of India who voluntarily acquires the citizenship of a specified country shall not cease to be a citizen of India, if within six months thereof he makes an application for registration as an overseas citizen of India under sub-section (1) of section 7A, until such application is disposed of by the Central Government.";

You CANNOT be a citizen of india and an overseas citizen of India, they are two seperate entities.

And section 7A(1) was:
7A. (1) The Central Government may, subject to such conditions and restrictions including the condition of reciprocity as may be prescribed, on an application made in this behalf, register any person as an overseas citizen of India if—(a) that person is of Indian origin of full age and capacity who is a citizen of a specified country; or (b) that person is of full age and capacity who has obtained the citizenship of a specified country on or after the commencement of the Citizenship(Amendment) Act, 2003 and who was a citizen of India immediately before andsuch commencment; or (c) that person is a minor of a person mentioned in clause (a) or (b) above

So if you were a citizen of india and converted to a (say) US citizenship before the act was passed,then you previously holding that indian citizenship could not be claimed as a reason for OIC (you'd have to apply on the basis of your parents/grandparents being indian)






But the implementation has been utter fraud from my perspective, and I feel completely betrayed.

True the inordinate delays and the confusion created does leave one lost and frustrated.Add to it the totally different form OIC has taken.

Also, the OIC law is good because they say that if you have been OIC for 5 years, and then you come and settle in India, after just ONE YEAR, you can switch to becoming full resident Indian citizen again. Presumably, you have to renounce other citizenships - but think about that - most nations don't care if you renounce in front of Babus of other nations, so you will continue to be a real dual-citizen at that point.
Wouldnt that get you in some sort of trouble ?

Anyway, I gather that no one has seen the exact text of what has been passed.
The OCI page of the MHA website has the extract.
 
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mangal969 said:
Acutally no.The point in question is reproduced below:
"Provided further that after the commencement of the Citizenship(Amendment) Act, 2003, any citizen of India who voluntarily acquires the citizenship of a specified country shall not cease to be a citizen of India, if within six months thereof he makes an application for registration as an overseas citizen of India under sub-section (1) of section 7A, until such application is disposed of by the Central Government."

All they're saying is that someone who becomes a citizen of some other country, can now stay an Indian citizen until, and only until, his OIC application is approved. It's only a temporary respite. He/she can't retain Indian citizenship beyond that point, and would lose it in any case, if no OIC application is submitted within 6 months.

This is the silliest thing, when you think about it. It's like making someone who already has American or Canadian citizenship (I'm Canadian), give up their citizenship and go back to being a permanent resident. It makes no sense at all.
 
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Basically the point i was trying to make was you cannot become a true "dual-citizen".Once you acquire a "foreign" citizenship you either have to convert it into an OCI or lose it altogether.So you are losing your Indian citizenship per se.
Anyways this was the old law.The new one doesnt seem to have this clause because they broadened the time frame of eligibility to when the Constitution came into force.

Also, the OIC law is good because they say that if you have been OIC for 5 years, and then you come and settle in India, after just ONE YEAR, you can switch to becoming full resident Indian citizen again

This is also an incorrect point.If you have been an OIC for 5 years and 1 out of those 5 has been spent in India then you are eligible for full Indian citizenship.

The only points about OCI that worry me are:
1.In your application they are requesting for "proof of relationship" if that is the basis of claiming an OCI.Now this can be subject to various interpretations,from having a signed affidavit to asking presenting the person.Worse,they have not specified what consititutes a proof of relationship.

2.The government has the option of cancelling your OCI at,literally,their whim and fancy.

Now if they only get the process started........
 
Thanks for the clarifications.

Again, in PRACTICE, the OIC is exactly same (or better) in privileges as an NRI as long as u r outside India.

For instance, bank deposit interest. On DOMESTIC (meaning holder is Resident Indian) the interest rate is now substantially higher than on NRE accounts. Thus, Indian citizen living & working abroad has no right to get the interest rate available to DOMESTIC accounts. No distinction between NRI and NR- non-Indian citizen.

No complaints - I have benefited when the NRE rates were higher than the Domestic rates, and they don't charge me Indian taxes on NRE deposits. Just pointing out that Indian citizens are assumed to become foreigners the moment they leave India to live abroad for any significant period. Also, cannot vote, and presumably cannot stand for elected office. Doubtful if they will give Defence security clearance to someone who have lived abroad for many years?

So from these points of view, OCI is no worse in rights than NRI. The option to convert to full Indian citizen after 5 years is decent.

The part about government having the right to take away OCI is somewhat scary. So ur right to travel into India is still subject to political whim. But I know of no desi who has been denied permission to go to India. Even the Khalistanis did not have that problem - they were "wanted" all right.

Remaining problems are psychological.
 
bubbette said:
The part about government having the right to take away OCI is somewhat scary. So ur right to travel into India is still subject to political whim. But I know of no desi who has been denied permission to go to India. Even the Khalistanis did not have that problem - they were "wanted" all right.

Remaining problems are psychological.

I didnt quite get your meaning there.The government can take away your OCI , but cannot deny you your right to travel to India.It will be as much subjected to political whim as it is today.But yaa in a sense you may get a letter from the Governement of India that your OCI is cancelled for some obscure reason and you cant do anything about it.
Like i said i didnt quite understaand what you are trying to convey.

About the other problem well the thing is there are no defined guidlines as to what can constitute a proof of relationshipother than it is to satisfy the examinig officer.Now this can be subject to interpretation (For Ex If you and i were officers I might say Ok if you just show me the passport copy and a letter signed by your parents while you may want nothing less than a notarised affidavit ).So i guess the "standard" will vary from consulate to consulate.

Any news when they are going to start the procedure ?? The PM is in New York right now.Maybe someone should go tell him to immediately issue the necessary instructions.It's high time
 
mangal969 said:
I didnt quite get your meaning there.The government can take away your OCI , but cannot deny you your right to travel to India.It will be as much subjected to political whim as it is today.But yaa in a sense you may get a letter from the Governement of India that your OCI is cancelled for some obscure reason and you cant do anything about it.
Like i said i didnt quite understaand what you are trying to convey.

About the other problem well the thing is there are no defined guidlines as to what can constitute a proof of relationshipother than it is to satisfy the examinig officer.Now this can be subject to interpretation (For Ex If you and i were officers I might say Ok if you just show me the passport copy and a letter signed by your parents while you may want nothing less than a notarised affidavit ).So i guess the "standard" will vary from consulate to consulate.

Any news when they are going to start the procedure ?? The PM is in New York right now.Maybe someone should go tell him to immediately issue the necessary instructions.It's high time

Taking a guess, I would say before end of January 2006 (they may want to do this before the PBD in Jan)
 
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