Having more than one PR?

[kcr]

Gurus

I'm an Australian PR, and how this is going to effect after my I-485 approval? Thanks for your replies.

 

[AmericanWannabe]

You would have to give that up. The US authorities would assume that you have abandoned your residence in the US if you keep the Australian PR. They reasoning is that you can not reside at the same time in two different countries.

What if permanent residency can be interpreted as permanent
part-residency or permanent full-residency?

 

[TheRealCanadian]

What if permanent residency can be interpreted as permanent part-residency or permanent full-residency?

Strictly speaking, what constitutes permanent residency is up to each country to determine. The US only cares that you actually reside in the US and conduct yourself accordingly. That means a residence, typically a job, filing taxes as a resident and physical presence in the US consistent with residency. That may be easy, or it may be difficult to do.

What the Australians consider permanent residency is up to them. That being said, were you to obtain (for example) Canadian permanent residency after your Green Card, USCIS could claim that you had abandoned your Green Card and you would have a hard time arguing otherwise. The Australians may look at things the same way.

 

[Upstate_NY]

In the true definition of the word "Permanent Resident", one can only reside permanently in one country.

However, no country can dictate or meddle in the laws of another. A question may arise if & when US immigration comes to know of an applicant's ties to another country.

My conclusion is not a scary one like "giving it up" but that one can keep it until & unless an issue arises and if an issue arises, deal with it then.

 

[TheRealCanadian]

The issue is that CIS assumes that somebody who has residence somewhere else has abandoned US residence. So, if you want to keep the US GC, you should give up other residences. Plain and simple.

I don't fully agree with this. As far as USCIS is concerned, you need to reside in the United States and conduct yourself accordingly. If other countries still consider you a permanent resident, that's their issue and not USCIS', especially if you are behaving like you reside in the US.

Let's take an example. I decide to secede from the United States, and declare my .75 acres to be the Imperial Grand Potentate of Smokey Hollow. I magnanimously allow visa-free travel between my Potentate and the US, and allow investors to obtain Smokey Hollow permanent residency for the minor sum of $10,000 US (all cash, small, unmarked non-serial bills thank you!). The only requirement for maintaining permanent residency is to come by once a year and have dinner with me.

You do this for a year or two, and then you get your Green Card. You reside in the US, pay taxes in the US and stay here 365 days a year, but maintain your Smokey Hollow permanent residency by coming over once a year and having dinner. In what way has your maintenance of an existing permanent residency caused a problem with USCIS?

It's an extreme example, but my understanding is that so long as your actions match what USCIS expects of a resident, the fact that other countries may consider you a resident is somewhat irrelevant. Now, if you were to get an immigrant visa to another country, that would be a logical indication of intent to not reside in the US, but mere maintenance of another country's residence permit through actions not in conflict with USCIS's requirements is to me a different matter.

That all having been said, at some point one needs to decide if one wants to fish or cut bait, and what country to live in.

 

[AmericanWannabe]

Then how come state governments set a very loose resodency requirements
for its citizens living out of state or even abroad for election purpose?

Some Americans living in foreign country can always register in the
state they lived many years ago for voting

 

[TheRealCanadian]

And one of the requirements is that you reside in the US. If you have permanent residence somewhere else, you indicate by definition that you reside somewhere else. You thereby violate the main US permanent residency rule: residing in the US... And, as consequence, CIS asserts that you have abandoned your US GC. Plain and simple.

I'm still puzzled here. If I am considered a permanent resident of another country even though I live in the US and have never been back to that other country, how am I "not residing in the US"?

 

[TheRealCanadian]

If you have never been back to that other country, then why do you keep being a permanent resident there?

That's really a question to be asked of that third country, now then isn't it?

Keeping that indicates that you still consider yourself a permanent resident of that country.

No, it merely indicates that this third country considers me still eligible to reside their permanently. It says nothing about what I consider myself. If anything, since I obtained US permanent residency and reside here, I consider myself a US permanent resident.

As far as I see it, maintenance of US permanent residency is a question of my actions and USCIS. I am not under any obligition to actively renounce any other permanent residency statuses I may have - I just need to conduct myself as though I reside in the United States. That may or may not (usually will) cause me to lose permanent resident status elsewhere.

Hypothetically, let's say that my Imperial Grand Potentate loosened its requirements for permanent residency, to the point where it truly was permanent. As a gesture of my magnificence and generosity, you could never lose your permanent residency status.

Does that mean that the beneficiaries of my gift could never become US permanent residents, and that I had veto power over wether they could immigrate to the US? Of course not.

There is a long-established principle in US law that the US will generally ignore other nations' actions. This is especially true in terms of naturalization; while the oath requires you to renounce all allegiances to other states, the US makes no requirement that you actively renounce your other citizenships. Under Canadian law, my renunciation carries no legal weight, and Canada still considers me a citizen. Does that make my naturalization invalid? Of course not.

As I said, the US authorities can not know about whatever laws the other country has that allow you to not going there in years, and they have no indication if and when that other country's laws change. All they can do is go from the fact that you are a permanent resident of another country.

No, all they can go on are my actions and conduct, like they do in any other fact of immigration law.

And, in consequence, if your stay in the US is temporary (since you are a PR in another country), you can not be a PR in the US.

How can a third country decide that my stay in the US is temporary, any more than you can decide about the permanence of my stay?

 

[TheRealCanadian]

And US immigration law defines what "permanent residency" means to US law enforcement, and that's it. What you or any other country think is irrelevant.

Thank you!

No. You need to permanently reside in the US. You can't just pretend (that what I consider your "conduct yourself as though") to reside in the US. You have to permanently reside in the US.

That's my entire point. I think we might be getting confused between permanent residence as in "living somewhere permanently" and permanent residence as in "status under immigration law". These are two layman's terms that hopefully explain the difference.

If I have a GC and am residing permanently in the US (ie. both definitions) and prior to getting that Green Card I had permanent residency (the legal definition) in another country but I am no longer living there (the practical definition), how would USCIS care?

Since you have said that all they care about are me fulfilling my requirements under US immigration law, the fact that I have not formally renounced or abandoned the PR status in the other country is irrelevant.

Again, it does not matter if that other country is ok with having you reside for some time outside that country. You are still residing there permanently.

No I'm not. I'm residing permanently in the US!

And a strong indication of you having abandoned your US permanent residency is if you have permanent residency from some other country.

How can I abandon US permanent residency by not engaging in an administrative procedure with another country, a procedure that the US (as you yourself admit) does not recognize or care about?

based on the fact that your PR status somewhere else shows that you don't reside in the US.

That shows nothing of the sort. If the Imperial Grand Potentate of Smokey Hollow considers you a permanent resident (I'm really generous now, I've waived the $10,000 landing fee) does that mean you no longer live in the US?

Again, the US does not care if you have other permanent residences, but they state that you can not have US permanent residency if you reside somewhere else. And having permanent residency somewhere else shows to US officials that you reside somewhere else.

I always that that where I lived, worked, paid taxes and stayed showed where I resided. That's typically what USCIS uses to determine residency, not the actions of a foreign government department that they ignore.

 

[AmericanWannabe]

Now, the permanent residency laws of that other country may allow you to be out of that country for a long time. However, that is not US law, so it is completely irrelevant for determining if you have abandoned US permanent residency.

What if a US PR is considered to be a automatic resident of
his citizenship country by law of that country?

 

[AmericanWannabe]

What if you simply just don't tell you are a PR of another country?
I don't think any form ask for such information except where
you physically stay. So not mentioning the fact that you are a
PR of another country is not lying or making a statement in the
form of perjury.

 

[AmericanWannabe]

What if a country has laws that says one you are a PR there, you can not give it up, similar to laws of many countries regarding their citizenships
(I know two ) UK, Morroco. In this case, dual PR status is inevitable
no matter what.

 

[AmericanWannabe]

Hmm, that may fall under the "hiding a material fact" clause of INA 212... when asked, you always have to answer truthfully.

The issue is: USCIS do not usually ask. DO you remmember
any form (I485, N400, whatever) carry such a question
:"Are you a PR of any country than US and your home
citizenship country" or it

 

[TheRealCanadian]

The status as US permanent resident under US immigration law requires that the person resides permanently in the US, that the person's "place of general abode" is in the US, "regardless of intent."

Bingo. And as long as I am doing that, I'm good.

If you have permanent resident status in that country, it is safe to assume that you are residing there. In immigration law, they don't have to show otherwise, you would have to.

Fair enough. Can we distill our discussion down to "If you have obtained permanent residency in another country before getting US permanent residency, you may need to prove that you were residing in the US"?

I'm just pointing out that an unrevoked, unrenounced permanent resident status in another country does not in and of itself cause a loss of US permanent residency, if one is residing (the layman's term) in the US.

 

[TheRealCanadian]

Besides, the original poster wanted to use the Canadian GC to enter Canada. And since the US and Canada nowadays exchange information about who crosses the border, such information would soon get to US immigration.

Canada changed the laws since I left, but there's no requirement that a Canadian PR actually live in Canada, or that an entrance after he or she leaves requires the re-establishment of permanent intent.

I don't disagree that the Canadian/US "dual-PR" game is not a viable strategy once a GC has been obtained.

 

[AmericanWannabe]

PIO card (person of indian origin) issued by India can be considered
a form of Indian green card. A person who is born in India as an indian citizen can immigrate to Canada and become a Canadian citizen
and them immigrate to USA and get American GC. I don't think
he will get himself into trouble with USCIS if he then get
or already got a PIO card from India, which grant him the right
to reside in India permanently.

PR is called PR for a reason in USA but it take different name
in other countries.

 

[sadiq]

You can get away with it, and probably convince CIS. Perhaps you will have a valid case if you can demonstrate that you have meet the spirit as well as the letter of the law when it comes to your American PR. US employment, address, and 1040s would be such examples. But CIS is not like other agencies. Too often we are “guilty” until proven innocent, so keep that in mind.

Incidentally, if you were a Canadian PR, why not just use the American greencard to enter Canada? I’m not familiar with the nuances of Canadian immigration laws.

Rgds,
sadiq

 

[Participant]

It is being opined by some memebers above that to retain US PR safely, it is the only way to renounce the PR of other countries since:
1)US PR means to reside 'permanently' (?)
2)The onus of proof rests with the defendant in CIS issues.
Fine.
if just by having another country PR automatically casts shadows on USPR,
then the logic can be extended this way also.
Consider any country citizenship.The citizen normally will have(apart form responsibilties) rights also.The' permamnent residency' is an implied part
of the citizenship of that country.
Then another country citizen(and US PR) can be stated that his intensions or
premise is not really to maintain 'permanent' residence in US or may not maintain.(By virtue of he having citzenship of other country and implied permanent residence there by,in that country).?So where is the recourse for this type of logic.
May be every issue is seen with in certain parameters and yard sticks and may not in the above perspective.
My just opinion is, if one meets these parameters,it may be ample evidence and he may be fine.
Can some one pl.list out what are all defined parameters/yard stick of PR(DHS view)rather than generic,if known?

 

[qwerty987666]

Ignore all BS from JoeF. . Does JoeF have any law to back his statements??? NO(as usual), its all his convenient opinions to preach others and possibly mislead them. Ignore such poster.

As long as US GC holder follows CIS requirements for maintainence of GC, s/he should be fine. CIS don't restricts on GC holders to have just one PR or anything like that. US GC holder can be citizen of 2 (or more) countries , and still maintains GC and apply for citizenships without any problems(I know few peoples who holds multiple nationality along with US GC and later got US citizenship).
Just having another countries PR or citizenship doesn't hurt US GC at all. GC holder/s needs to follow US GC rules to maintain it. Thats it. Issue closed.

 

[qwerty987666]

Grumblings as usual..

Oh oh, no argument left , so turning to personal attack... so lame. But what else anybody can expect from LOOSER like you.

I have a strong suspicion that one or both of them, before they left, repeatedly tried to hack into my account. According to the admin, a warning was issued, but it seems they want to continue their immature behavior.
Since I have the IP address from where this attempt to hack into my account originated, I am going to inform their employer the next time...

Why don't you inform their employer now?? Don't have balls to do that?? Girlie man , show ur TRUE colors or GET LOST.. BANG

Admin/Moderator,

nobody cares who hacked JoeF account( why to hack such account which got all over BS, anyway). But if JoeF knows those IP address, everybody else would like to know JoeF's IP address? Why JoeF has been given any IP address ?? Please posts JoeF IP address on this forum for all.