Agreeing to bear arms?

S

spicard29

New Member
Hi,

I'm in the process of completing my N-400 and I was taken aback by one of the last questions. The question reads:

"If the law requires it, are you willing to bear arms on behalf of the United States?"

My truthful answer is "No, I am unwilling to bear arms on behalf of any country whatsoever. I am a pacifist."

Will my truthful answer preclude me from gaining Citizenship?
 
spicard29 said:
Hi,

I'm in the process of completing my N-400 and I was taken aback by one of the last questions. The question reads:

"If the law requires it, are you willing to bear arms on behalf of the United States?"

My truthful answer is "No, I am unwilling to bear arms on behalf of any country whatsoever. I am a pacifist."

Will my truthful answer preclude me from gaining Citizenship?
Click to expand...

No. So answer No to Question 37 Part 10 H. But I think you are required to answer Yes to Question 38 and 39.

If you answer No to Question 37, you need to request for a different version of oath. I don't know pratically
what is the case: all applicants who refuse to bear arms will have a sepearte oath ceremony so that
USCIS supervisor will recite a different version or still just same oath like others but whose who refuse to bear arms
can keep their mouth shut when reciting the bear arm" part.
 
spicard29 said:
Hi,

I'm in the process of completing my N-400 and I was taken aback by one of the last questions. The question reads:

"If the law requires it, are you willing to bear arms on behalf of the United States?"

My truthful answer is "No, I am unwilling to bear arms on behalf of any country whatsoever. I am a pacifist."

Will my truthful answer preclude me from gaining Citizenship?
Click to expand...

I have done it successfully. See some of my earlier posts regarding that subject:

http://forums.immigration.com/showthread.php?p=2077244#post2077244
http://forums.immigration.com/showpost.php?p=2047697&postcount=13
http://forums.immigration.com/showthread.php?p=2078076#post2078076

You can answer No to questions 36, 37, and 38, but you must answer Yes to question 39. You also need to provide supporting documentation and be prepared for some opposition by the IO who is usually not well informed about this subject.
 
How can one prove himself to be a pacifist? Anyone who does not want to serve in the militray for
other reasonb can say he is a pacifist. How can they be told aprt from each other?
 
WBH said:
How can one prove himself to be a pacifist? Anyone who does not want to serve in the militray for
other reasonb can say he is a pacifist. How can they be told aprt from each other?
Click to expand...

You have to have a valid religious reason. A letter from your church is usually sufficient to prove pacifism.
 
What about someone like me who does not believe in a god or a religious institution? How about my resume, where it shows that I am mostly involved with non-profit and human rights organisations? Will something like that work? I'm just curious. I've already sent my N400, and I did agree to bear arms because my case is already way too complicated so I don't want to annoy the IO with other issues.
 
Vorpal said:
You have to have a valid religious reason. A letter from your church is usually sufficient to prove pacifism.
Click to expand...
That can't be correct. I'm a devout atheist but also have no desire to go around killing people or fighting wars. Would I not be able to get a modified oath?
 
cafeconleche said:
What about someone like me who does not believe in a god or a religious institution? How about my resume, where it shows that I am mostly involved with non-profit and human rights organisations? Will something like that work? I'm just curious. I've already sent my N400, and I did agree to bear arms because my case is already way too complicated so I don't want to annoy the IO with other issues.
Click to expand...

From one of my earlier posts referenced above:

You do need to provide supporting documentation for the bearing of arms part, but that can be from an organization helping Conscientious Objectors. The relevant supreme court decision is U.S.v. Seeger, 280 U.S. 163 (1965). You also need to be prepared to be firm with IOs that are largely ignorant on the details of this issue. So do your homework; it is not easy but possible.


In your case it might be difficult to change these questions and be successful with the argument after you already indicated that you were willing to bear arms when you filled out the form. The USCIS is looking for any sign of inconsistency to make it difficult for the applicant. They could argue that you are not sincere, which is one of the criteria.
 
dms1 said:
That can't be correct. I'm a devout atheist but also have no desire to go around killing people or fighting wars. Would I not be able to get a modified oath?
Click to expand...

Yes, you would. See my other posts in this thread and references therein.
 
dms1 said:
That can't be correct. I'm a devout atheist but also have no desire to go around killing people or fighting wars. Would I not be able to get a modified oath?
Click to expand...

I can not say no one but it is safe to say most do not want to kill others or fight wars. But I think that is not good enough reason.
So I don't think you will be able to get a modief oath. The reason should be strong enough, strong to teh degree that you
would not even want US citizenship had "bear arm" promise been absolute required

If the threhold for waiver of the bear arm" oath is too low, many who are willing to bear arm can complain why they need to serve in the army but
others do not have to?
 
If you omit the bear arm part but a few years later is caught bearing arms, will you be de-naturalized?
In that case USCIS has good reason to say you obviously lied because you do not want to bear arms
for teh country because you don';t believe in arms but then you bear arms for yourself
 
WBH said:
If you omit the bear arm part but a few years later is caught bearing arms, will you be de-naturalized?
In that case USCIS has good reason to say you obviously lied because you do not want to bear arms
for teh country because you don';t believe in arms but then you bear arms for yourself
Click to expand...

The relevant portion of the oath refers to the willingness to "bear arms on behalf of the United States", i.e., serving in the armed forces (not carrying a weapon individually). So your scenario would imply that someone does join the armed forces at a later date. I doubt that the USCIS would mind, in particular since they try to discourage anyone from modifying the oath in the first place. Plus, the USCIS would have to prove in court that you were insincere at the time of oath and did not just change your mind, which would not be easy to do. To my knowledge, there is no such precedent.
 
By the way, except for males between 18-26, is there a law that require us to bear arms on behalf of USA, perform noncombat duties in the armed forces, or to perform work of national importance under civilian directions?
 
WBH said:
By the way, except for males between 18-26, is there a law that require us to bear arms on behalf of USA, perform noncombat duties in the armed forces, or to perform work of national importance under civilian directions?
Click to expand...

Not currently, since there is no draft at this time. However, the relevant parts of the oath and also the Selective Service registration are in preparation for a potential re-activation of the draft (however unlikely this is in the current political environment, since there would be significant opposition by the general citizenry).
 
Thank you for all of the kind advice!

My refusal to bear arms is unrelated to the principles of any organized religion and I won't be able to honestly invoke religious reasons for marking "no".

But if I'm reading all of this reference material correctly, then the precedent set by the Giruouard Supreme Court Case in 1946 allows applicants to mark "No" to the willingness to bear arms, provided they are willing to perform noncombatant services. Since I AM willing to perform NONcombatant service to protect the constitution of this country, as required by law, I can conscientiously and honestly answer "Yes" to questions 36, 38, and 39.

Will marking yes on 36, 38, and 39 be sufficient?
 
natur08 said:
Not currently, since there is no draft at this time. However, the relevant parts of the oath and also the Selective Service registration are in preparation for a potential re-activation of the draft (however unlikely this is in the current political environment, since there would be significant opposition by the general citizenry).
Click to expand...

Selective service is only for drafting males between 18 and 26. That is exactly why you can not even register after you are 26 years old. So to require a 50 year old male or 20 year old female to those three things mentioned in the oath (bear arms,
noncomta duty, civilian work), the congress must pass the new laws.

Practically, this is not an issue for applicants rather than a state of mind issue. I'll say many if not most of us would
never be allowed or qualified to serve in the military even if we want to (I myself want to) so there is no need to
worry that you will be required when you do not want
 
I am little confused by the term "bear arms". Can i restrict the scope that I will only carry it and not use it? Literal english word meaning.

It does not say "bear arms and shoot people".
 
rpranesh said:
I am little confused by the term "bear arms". Can i restrict the scope that I will only carry it and not use it? Literal english word meaning.

It does not say "bear arms and shoot people".
Click to expand...

and driving a tank will be a noncombatant services?

Bear arms = perfrom combatant services in the U.S. armed forces. Q37 and A38 are complementary subset of services in the US military
 
WBH said:
and driving a tank will be a noncombatant services?

Bear arms = perfrom combatant services in the U.S. armed forces. Q37 and A38 are complementary subset of services in the US military
Click to expand...

Yes, as long as I drive the tank in a peace zone and not involved in a combat.
 
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