* * * Why Do we need GC ??

No Doubt you are right.....

But think about this. .....Most of the companies who are moving their operations to India have started investing in their own infrastructure rather than "outsourcing" their operations to third parties which makes it more difficult for them to pull out that easily. I am not suggesting that they will not leave India and go to China, Philliphines or Cambodia.... So I reckon that this trend will continue ............
 
Why do we need GC?

1. Can work at ANY job or do 'fulltime' business.
2. Can explore better opportunities if locked into a job/career/pay because of employer, etc.
3. Can buy a house (with lesser worries).
4. Can pursue studies (utilizing loans).
5. Can get American citizenship.
6. Advice newbies on immigration issues and also 'sign off' from immigration web sites. ;)

Here are other scenarios who may get GC but still return to India.
1. Work more than 6 years continuosly before returning.
2. Can get re-entry permit for 2 years and file taxes as resident (2 maybe 3 yrs) for substantial tax savings.
3. Can get US citizenship for kids if they are not born in US and then return to India.
4. Can get US citizenship and return to India
4a. Hope to avail dual citizenship.
4b. Have financial investments in both countries.
4c. Save money on taxes.
4d. Get SS benefits (need 40 credits though).
4e. Can visit/return to US whenever wanted.
 
Re: I just can't let go of this thread - sorry again

Originally posted by abhi_01201
Don't you guys think in the long term - it is a safer bet to stay in US near to the epicentre - though presently you might have to struggle a lot. Please keep in mind my earlier logic that if/when things get bad in India it won't be easy to move to US/Europe while the reverse is much easy.
Thanks
Click to expand...

GOOD POINT !
 
Re: I just can't let go of this thread - sorry again

Originally posted by abhi_01201
Don't you guys think in the long term - it is a safer bet to stay in US near to the epicentre - though presently you might have to struggle a lot. Please keep in mind my earlier logic that if/when things get bad in India it won't be easy to move to US/Europe while the reverse is much easy.
Thanks
Click to expand...

GOOD POINT !
 
This is my doubt. Companies are shifting their operations to India so that they get cheap labour there. Now they are paying $2000 to $4000 (Rs.8000 to Rs.1,20,000) per month to their employees in India. That makes sense because it is 1/3rd of US Salary. But if the dollar depreciates against the rupee, the companies would have to spend more dollars to reach the same pay in rupees. Then what will happen? Will that make sense to US companies to shift their jobs to India? Or will they reduce the pay for their employees? What is your opinion?:confused:
 
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I think that the depriciation of dollar against rupee will have an ill affect on Indian software companies and export industries - they live by the exchange system of different currencies. I am not sure if that will have an adverse affect on US companies - they will probably find another way.

I think some Indians companies may be already taking steps to be ready in case the cash flow from US drops - Infosys is opening up shops in China. Again - I don't think that the CEO's and the big shots will have that much problem if there is a transition unlike us. For an avarage Indian software engineer - this is the best time specially if he is a US returnee. I am just not so sure that the future is so bright for him - but again we never know.

One of the other advantage I have found out for holding an American or European passport which probably has not been mentioned here before is the VISA relaxation for most countries and ease of travel. Specially some European and Asian countries do discriminate adversely if you have an Indian passport ( my personal experience ) compared to an Western passport.

I have always felt that you may to certain extent bring up your children with some Indian values and culture in a western country if you cultivate them at home like most of us do. Travel to home country once in two years should help also. This may be easy for me to say as I have no children - but again - we can talk and discuss and that is very healthy. But before taking a very important decision like forfeiting GC and going back to home country - I would really think very hard than following my personal emotions and nostalgia.
 
The currency fluctuations are not that high. The dollar has been steadily rising over the years. The value of the "monies" are governed by a complicated system. The governments take it seriously when the currencies are falling. And usually currency problems are well known (recent example of argentina). The dollar will not fall or gain that easily. It did have a setback when the oil nations started trading on the euro but GWB resolved it with his "pre-emptive strike".

In any case it will not make much of a difference to the Indian companies. Most of them have enough reserves to survive with adverse conditions. One problem due to this jobs transfer is the inequality in pay between the high-tech jobs and the traditional jobs. This will invariably cause tension. Also, this will cause an increase in the cost of living thereby rendering India not as economical as it was when they started and they will move things to other nations.
 
what a waste of time!

I think people like S-------1B should be banned from using this forum. It is meant for a very useful purpose. Not for j---s like S and D.
 
Hi guys,
Forget about the long term implications.
Suppose we all got gc next month, and we lost job after that. What would be best to deal with that kind of situation. I think this may happen sooner or later, because of outsourcing. One of my friend recently lost job in cisco, and had been offered to work at cisco, India which he refused.

There may be many options, like
1. Find another job, because you have gc now, which may not be that easy because we still are hearing only layoff not hiring news.
2. Switch the careers and this option may not be easy too.
3. Join one of the Indian software companies and move back to India and go around the world, where ever they want you to go. This may not be easy for the people who have school going kids.

Please post any other options, ideas . . .
 
gcgcgcgc


For families where both members are working - it's not very likely both will be laid-off at the same time and so whoever is laid-off can collect unemployement for some time. For single earning families and bachelors - it is tough if you are enemployed for long period of time . For bachelors - they may go back to school if they are still young - get another degree( MBA?) and wait for the market to bounce back. Other wise - get a reentry permit and go to India for 2 years ( or less) and again - wait for the right opportunity or the market to rebound.

Again - not many people have really have been forced to go back - so let's be optimist that you would find something in a short period of time.
 
That's a good thought. Let's not worry about it. It varies with person and there are lot of constraints to arrive at a common solution.
 
Just a thought....

Out of hundreds of thousands of reasons one can give about why US (not only GC). I guess the best ones are:

In my opinion, it is a lot easier to realize your dreams in US then in anywhere else (look back and see for yourself and honestly check the progress (monetory, education, family any kind) that you have made here within last 3-4 years and then ask yourself could you do them same there??? with all the red tape, nepotism, political back stabbing etc).

How many of us could have never imagined that we would be able to get to an IVY league back home. Here it is just the matter of your credentials and your scrores. There is nothing else that matters...NOTHING ELSE!!!!!! Comparatively, I still have some sense of justice in the system here, which I completely gave up back home.

I know of people who came from not so fortunate family backgrounds, they worked hard and saved money for just couple of years and have provided better lives to their family and friends. I am not sure if they could do the same even for themselves had they decided to stay. So, don't discredit an economy just yet!!!!!

People of entire Indian-subcontinent have live/d their lives in sheer dismay. A systems so full of red tape and corruption that it is hard to believe. Does being here not bring a little more hope to the whole system (come on...BCIS might be slow but we know deep down inside that there is no corruption in there). No Neta Ji's son is going to get approval first before you do.

About the job market, there might a few opening here and there in IT but in general (non -IT) the job market is horrible back home and with the cost of living going out of the roof, people are often forced to live under very unpleasent conditions esp. in metropolitan cities. And sir, I am talking about engineers and doctors there...talk about other educational streams. More ironical is the fact that the situation does not seem to be ameliorating anytime soon!!!!!!

Not to mention crime. How many of us can drive a BMW not fearing that there will be someone tonight at the door asking for ransom???? believe me this happened to someone I know in DELHI (talk about capital). The poor chap came back to Rochester because of the fear of getting kidnapped and there was nothing he could do about it. Understand, a guy who is capable of getting a BMW in India is very influential but I guess not enough to avoid his own kidnapping by some local thugs, who are accomplice of the police. Gujarat is a perfect example!!!! I do not want to instigate any communcal fury here but just wanted to cite that as an example. Where in the world can a mob of 100 people set the whole train on fire and burn 100s of people alive and the other side slay 1000s of people with such henious atrocities and get acuitted without any charges at all!!!! can someone talk judiciary?

We had Sep 11 tragedy here, how many Indians or middle easterns were slayed??? All BCIS did was deport them...DEPORT THEM ONLY....had this been any of our countries, there would have been a literal blood bath.

There are many who can dwell on this topic as long as they want. Most of Indians who come here talk about going back as if there is a Taj Mahal awaiting them back home. The amount of disgust can only be seen on their faces the moment they land at the airport and are harrased by airport personnel there!!!!

I did not leave in search for more money but a better life overall for me and my family. These are tough times for US economy but I am sure things will change soon. So, don't just give up yet!!!!

My apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings unknowingly. I believe in calling spade a spade!!!!

Thanks,
 
Hi Ahmer123,
You narrated it very well. But you ignored lot of other important things. Your narration is totally revolving around money. It solved lot of monetary problems for his/her family. But what about himself. He is missing lot of cultural events, family get togethers, many functions etc etc which you cannot bring them back. A Visit to Niagara falls or Vegas or Disney Land will never act as substitutes for them. More over his family is missing him too. What about his parents, who needs personal attention. Just make some arrangements with the money earned here. And you know 3 generations are suffering, 1. your parents 2. yourself(I don't know that you guys know about this or not, ABCDs named us as EFGH(Embarassed, Frustrated ....)) 3. your kids(ABCDs). Is it worth that 3 genrations should suffer??? I beleive one can get rid of these problems by opting an intermediate path. Stay for sometime(it vaires from 3 to 10years) depending on his personal needs and constraints and get back to India.

And more over, if you ask for yourself, what you did for the community where you were born and brought up? How much govt. had spend on your studies. You just said that the system is bad and someone has to do something, otherwise I will go to another country and settle down there. How many times you refused if a bad thing is happening. Why don't you literate who doesn't know anything?

You only discussed about what you cannot get in India and but you can get a lot more in India that you cannot get here and these were discussed many times many places and the list goes on and on, so I don't want to post it here.

If all the nri's would help our country somehow or other, especially to get rid of corruption, India will sure proper.
 
Hmmm..you points are excellent but vague!!!

Firstly, when I said education and providing for family and friends, I did not mean "money", I meant a value (could be money or could be just a piece of advice to someone in your family on what courses to choose).....not necessary hard cash. Understand, when I said growth, I meant perspective!!!!

Now talk about missing stuff back home, how many people who work out of state (I mean where there parents/family and friends are) in India can actually be in touch with then the folks from down here. Now being there when your parents need you, very good point......who says your parents cannot be here exactly the same way as you pointed out your presence there!!! Why can't we work on the problem the way it is supposed to be worked on instead of going around in circles?

How many jobs allow you decent work hours not to mention compensation??? How many people in India (non-IT) can afford to send their kids to decent enough schools, bear for their parents medicines, provide for others in the family who are less fortunate. What do you do when there is an urgent need in your family??? Where do you go in India? Sir, people are selling their body parts to meet both end meets. Should I do the same is a personal judgment call??? This by no means is to insult or humiliate the Diaspora of Indian sub continent who are equally distressed with the situation as I am. It is just that sitting 14000 miles away in a cool air-conditioned room and sipping coffee, I have not forgotten the ground realities.

Understand, those who say they will go back after 5 or whatever years, will NEVER-NEVER leave?? There can never-ever be enough cash in the bank that can convince anyone to leave. If you have to leave, which is equally valid, you leave for something, which is much much bigger the money like your mother or father's health or something of that sort. Money will never get to you there!!!! So forget about putting a limit of 10 yrs. or 20 yrs.

Helping others and talk about making a change is a topic cherished by every Indian heart. But all we do it cherish it, you know why...because the state of affairs is so bad that everyone of us has given up completely. There is no body, no organization, no NGO left in India, which one can trust. Tell me what changes are you going to bring...are you going to educate the viciuos netas or do you have the strength to stand against a corrupt administrative officers. Don't talk kirantikaari for the heck of it, these days they are called terrorist and are shot down by the same people who they are trying to help. This is so easy to talk and seems really possible from so much distant but when you get down to the reality you realize it is not so easy after all !!!!!! you do not fight state machinery just that easy!!!

About culture and education of the kids, when was the last time you went to India. Ask people around, people who have somehow or the other provided decent means to their family, ask them how much culture can they provide when there are threatening calls every day asking for ransom!!! I am not making this up please GO AND ENQUIRE!!!!

At least we know "who is who" here, but my friend you will shocked to realize that "valentines day is a bigger holiday then Id or Diwali" back home. There are families in US who have givent there children the right values (not necesarrily Indian or western) at the same time there are families in India who are more western then even west itself!!!!

The figures speak for themselves, check out the pre-marital and post marital abortion rate, check out the divore and suicide rate, check out the un-employment and illiteracy rate. Where do you want to begin the change?? Pick and choose!!!!

What moral values are you talking about!!! if there were any felt then India would be a significantly better place to live.

Just because we are from a place we have an allegiance to that nation (yes sir we all do...every single one of us) and we think like a good heart like yours think...believe me nothing would give us all more pleasure then going back but should we not be more realistic while thinking about it!!!!

Like I said before, let's call a spade a spade!!!!!

Thanks,
 
Ahmer123,
You look at the glass half empty, I look at it as half full for India. Now, let me look at US has half-empty.

You make lot more money in US but you lose your identity on the personal and emotional front. Most (remember most not all) Desis in US live in a coccoon interacting with fellow Desis during weekend parties/potlucks and occasional trips during long weekends. They are neither living their 'dream' in US nor living it in India. As your kids grow up and also with your friends relocating in US (more frequent here) you live a drastically secluded life in US.

Let us get to Ivy League. Simply put, you are wrong. Comparing apples to apples, one can pay to get a seat in Ivy league with average scores. You can't do the same with an IIT.

Let us get to crime/racism/casteism, etc. US is independent for the past 200+years. India which emerged as one nation is hardly 50+years. Now do not tell me that US has been perfect with regards to crime/racism, etc. Crime still is high and very violent in US. Whatever the case may be, good justice, etc., US has the most people in jails for any nation in the world. Racism was rampant still about 30-40 years and does exist in pockets. Sadly, another 9/11 kind of scenario would mean racism and hate crimes rear its ugly head much more. US really emerged as a great nation only after the world wars. Before that corruption, racism, etc. were as bad if not worse compared to India of today.

Job market: US unemployment is at 6+% now. India's is at 9%. Indian poverty levels are at 25% now and going down. This was 50% about 25 or so years ago. For those who need links, check the CIA factbook on India (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html#Econ). Interesting fact is with the growth IT enabled services, biotech, etc., these days the jobs are in abundance for even regular degree guys and pays are pretty good (Rs. 10+K p.m.). BTW, do not think that those in IT make the most in India as their salaries are 1+ lakh p.m. Those who have even small shops in the cities make as much if not more these days. Those who are enterprising can succeed in India too.

People complain red tapism, etc. and getting on with life is tough. People complain getting a phone, gas, electricity, etc. are difficult in India. Not anymore if they have checked recently. (At the same time, people can bear the burden and hassles of getting a licence from the DMV here :) ).

The system in fact is getting better with lot of politicains being pulled into court, etc. 20 years ago (Indira Gandhi's time), the politicains cannot be even brought in front the judiciary system. And India, for all it matters has a very free press. In fact I am impressed with the Indian press when compared with the US press reporting after 9/11. BTW, corruption does not exist in the new fields that are emerging, IT, ITES, pharma, biotech and the private industries. And more public sector being spun off as private entities, corruption is on the wane.

Everyone complains who is going to change the system. If the educated cannot make an effort, then who can. I would rather make an effort and try to change the system (success or not!) than complain and whine from a safe distance. Hope you know the poem, Liitle drops of water make the mighty ocean, little grains of sand....

No hard feelings!

p.s.: Deport them! You are kidding right. You and I are not privy to what really happens. With Aschroft / Rumsfeld's new policies, we do not even know what is being monitored and if thrown in jail under certain conditions, you cannot even have a lawyer or a hearing. Do you know that?
 
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How many jobs allow you decent work hours not to mention compensation??? How many people in India (non-IT) can afford to send their kids to decent enough schools, bear for their parents medicines, provide for others in the family who are less fortunate. What do you do when there is an urgent need in your family??? Where do you go in India?
Click to expand...

Ahmer123,

When you say non-IT, do the same comparison for an average American whose average annual income is $32K and imagine their lifestyle. Yes, Indian middleclass life might be a bit tougher (being a developing country will lag in certain criteria) but it is not all rosy for the average American.

Now compare, IT to IT. It is getting better by the day and at the current progress rate lifestyle for an IT guy in India seems better than the US guy.
 
Let's see..

First let's get a few facts straight.

65% of Indian economy is agriculture based and is self-employed. So the number that you have about the unemployment is incorrect. Here are some other interesting facts about economy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
India's labor force is growing at a rate of 2.5 per cent annually, but employment is growing at only 2.3 per cent. Thus, the country is faced with the challenge of not only absorbing new entrants to the job market (estimated at seven million people every year), but also clearing the backlog.

Sixty per cent of India's workforce is self-employed, many of who remain very poor. Nearly 30 per cent are casual workers (i.e. they work only when they are able to get jobs and remain unpaid for the rest of the days). Only about 10 per cent are regular employees, of which two-fifths are employed by the public sector.

More than 90 per cent of the labor force is employed in the "unorganized sector", i.e. sectors which don't provide with the social security and other benefits of employment in the "organized sector."

In the rural areas, agricultural workers form the bulk of the unorganized sector. In urban India, contract and sub-contract as well as migratory agricultural laborers make up most of the unorganized labor force.

Unorganized sector is made up of jobs in which the Minimum Wage Act is either not, or only marginally, implemented. The absence of unions in the unorganized sector does not provide any opportunity for collective bargaining.

Over 70 per cent of the labour force in all sector combined (organized and unorganized) is either illiterate or educated below the primary level.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now getting back to some of the points you made. I agree India is the best place to live in the entire world if we read "Indian constitution" as a book. There is a grave difference in between what is written and what is implemented.

Loose your identity, what identity you are talking about. An identity in which we have we have accepted English as a defacto standard of communication of elite and corporate. An identity, where we feel more comfortable wearing a levi's then kurta-payjamma or dhoti. The reason we live like hermit is not because we do not want to loose our identity or because we are not welcome here....but because our outlook towards everything is hazed. Some of us choose to live like hermits because we find ourselves a misfit in the whole system. Why??? This is very personal, it could be money, it could be nature, it could be the way we are brought up….it could be anything. But understand, there is nothing wrong in the system but something lacking within. Some sort of complex!!! it is hard to accept this fact but is true nonetheless. Most of which comes from the pedigree of being born in third world!!!

Why do we miss India so mush because there is sense of recognition in that place. Which is something we lack here?? But does this make US a better or a worse place to live…I do not think so. Besides, what have we done to build up a community here-nothing? If someone sees a difference in between a Mela and a fair, when there is none, is his personal judgment call.

What is an American dream? I guess we all are living without realizing it. I think over time IT has made the process of migration so easy that we forget the inherent value of the whole thing. American dream is not living in half million-dollar house or driving a Ferrari. American dream is, being able live a life without being abused by the authorities, which are, suppose to protect. American dream is to exercise your judgment, practice your fundamental rights, and expect justice at apparent no cost. Now, is there a violation of these rights, I agree to some extant but is there a blatant heinous show of atrocities, something that we perhaps see everyday in India (Gujarat, Punjab, Kashmir, Assam, Nagaland etc). This is a value, which I am talking about.

Would it suffice to say, there is no crime in US?? No, there is. But a common man is not affected as much by it as in India. We come from a place where our own defense minister was charged for making money out of coffins of the kargil war martyrs!!!! and you want to talk about life in cocoons here!!!

Then there was a point about 200 or 50 years. You are right!!! but the question is should I be able to bear a theft, a rape, a murder of any of my family members just because we were not liberated 150 years back!!!

More or less people in jail are not a good indicator of good or bad crime index. I guess the background of those criminals and their criminal records are of much more relevance here. The only people in Indian jails perhaps are those unfortunate 2-cent thieves who had no political clout.

25% poverty level, what are you talking about??? Do you know what is the definition of poverty level in India? Where and how Indian govt. decides to manipulate the figures, what is defined as poverty in India. I guess Indian poverty rate is 25% much by the same denomination as Indian literary rate is some 50%+, which is no where close to the reality, why because the definition of literate is being able to sign as against thumb print!!!! is this a joke!!!

Life is not tough when you mentioned electricity or a gas line. Life is tough when there is no water to drink, no electricity, no transport, no schools, no jobs. Do you know the average salary of an engineer (not talking about IITs) Rs.4500-5000.00? and this figure is when virtually half of Indian educated population (women) are unemployed or should I say forced unemployed. What life can you possibly provide for yourself, your family and your friend based on that figure? Compared to what you could get in a 32000.00 dollar salary...if not a lavish life then it definetly provides you 2 square meals a day and a shade (no matter how shabby) over your head!!!! and remember we are not talking engineers and doctors here but an average high school drop out standing at wal mart. Compare this to India, a high school drop out standing at lalaji's store gets how much Rs.1500.00 max!!!

I am not denying the fact that there are some (just some) who pay decent enough money but how many such jobs are there. And I guess above and beyond any quality that is required to land up in a job like that is to learn the western ways in the first place..how hypocritical is that!!!! Tell me one MBA institute, which conducts its interview in Hindi, or any Indian regional language.

System is getting better, how...have you looked at the criminaliaation of Indian politics in outlook magazine. A small organization like Tehelka, do we know what happened to them...they just showed the world 1% of Indian political filth and they were framed. India's most wanted....the guy was framed on the charges of his own wife's murder....so how is system becoming better....by burning 1000s of people alive under the supervision of state machinery!!!!

Where did you get the facts that the system is becoming better?????? if anything the system is becoming worse. All the govt. departments are full of corrupt people, earlier there were still some who stood their ground and were respected amongst the collegues but today what matters to everyone is what brand cell phone you have!!!

I hope I have not said too much, I wish you were true (I seriously do) but then again "a spade is a spade".

Thanks,
 
Ahmer123,
half empty, half full. You have your viewpoints and opinions and I have mine.

By the way, none of the unemployment factors, etc. are twisted data presented by the Indian govt. They are from the CIA handbook which calculates using its "own" methods and means.

As for the Rs. 4-5K for graduates, please check your source. Things have changed. As for $32K, that is the average income of Americans. A similar dropout in US would make minimum wages ($6-8/hr) and please check their lifestyle too.

As for Gujarat, Assam, Punjab, etc., etc. which you seem intent on expanding into all of India, besides Kashmir none is a burning issue and you pretty well know who keeps the Kashmir issue burning.

A 'spade' is a 'spade' (seems like a pretty favorite phrase of yours). For some reason, you want to look at the wrongs of India than taking into consideration all the rights/wrongs of India. As a 'spade' is a 'spade', your view to me seems skewed. Every country has its good and its bad. For every inconsistency in India you mention, I can mention a dozen ills in US.
 
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