Trump attacks Diversity Visa program

Discussion in 'Lottery Visas - DV' started by rafi-cairo, Nov 1, 2017.

  1. Sihem

    Sihem Member

    @Pierre82 , I hope you don't mind me asking Pierre, but why not try for Canada then ? Is there sthg particular about their system that makes you prefer waiting for DV2019 ? (Other than a possible preference for US over Canada maybe)
     
  2. For me, if any deal on immigration is done with this administration it will be extremely bad and all the blame will be on Democrats. Both sides couldn't make a deal in previous administration(s), and this is definitely the worst time in history to talk about immigration until they remove DT from the office. DT is constantly calling them (a chief democats) 'names', so in his words Chuck Schumer becomes 'Cryin' Chuck Schumer', Dianne Feinstein becomes 'Sneaky Dianne Feinstain', HC becomes 'Crooked Hillary Clinton', 'democrates caved in', 'after his humiliating defeat' (he was referring to Chuck Schumer again), then a CNN journalist is 'Crazy Jim Acosta', another one is 'loser' and so on. He is calling other countries 'shithole countries', he is sleeping with a porn star and cheatng on his wife, twisting the facts and lying about almost everything he says etc. And yet democrats are negotiating with him??? Yes, immigration needs a reform but the good one not the disastrous one that DT proposes. But democrats are so innert that they are not taking so many opportunities to nail him to the wall and ultimately - impeach him. When BO was president Republicans constantly opposed almost everything he wanted to do, now democrats have a chance to do the same - yet they are not doing it! They negotiate with DT??? Instead of opposing his horrible ideas every single time. They should completely freeze him. It is beyond every sane person's immagination why would they even talk about him on such important issue (as immigration is) after everything he has said and done. Yes, he is in charge (for now) but he has no power to change the laws unless democarts agree with him and vote for his ideas. But if democrats agree with him then they are worse then he is! DT is in no position to threat democrats that he will deport dreamers. He wants to do it, and he will try to do it, but ultimately millions of people will go on the streets and protest and DT will lose. People will protest on him, not on democrats, bcz he is the one who wants to end the program and deport them. No impact on democrats. At least no negative impact. It is much worse for democrats if they actually make a deal on immigration with DT - everyone will blame them, they will lose everything and then DT will tweet again that he is winning!? Unbelievable!
     
  3. OnTheGo

    OnTheGo Registered Users (C)

    I admit that I have not studied the tax reform in detail, but I believe it will actually create and attract a MASSIVE amount of extra economic activity, which eventually feeds through to all levels of the economy. This means more jobs, hence more competition for workers, therefore better pay and working conditions. Also, anyone could become a part owner of any publicly listed company by buying stocks...so those increased dividends will create more wealth for all. I already read a lot about concerns in the public debate in Germany, of companies shifting operations to the US....attracted by the better tax and as a result of the insane illegal non-vetted mass immigration adopted by the Merkel regime.
     
  4. SusieQQQ

    SusieQQQ Well-Known Member

    I have looked at it in a fair amount of detail and I haven’t seen any credible source seeing a “massive” extra economic impact. There will be a positive impact of course, but hardly the “massive” boost Trump is claiming. And yes “anyone” can buy stock, but in reality rich people buy a lot more as well as have the ability to save a lot more of their income, so if you read the research you’ll see that rising income inequality goes hand in hand with a rising stock market, even as the rising tide lifts all boats.
    And no matter what Trump does with tax, and no matter what he says, he’s not going to restart things like the coal industry. But while his rich friends get richer because they don’t have to comply with as many environmental regulations anymore and can squeeze the last few dollars out of a dying industry, those blue collar miners etc, half of whom no longer work, get sicker and sicker while what’s left of a safety net healthcare system gets whittled away to help pay for the tax breaks the rich get on estate duty.
     
  5. SusieQQQ

    SusieQQQ Well-Known Member

    Here’s a summary article from Forbes. I’m assuming you don’t want to go to full tilt into the CBO and academic analyses, but they’re mostly publicly available if you do.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/robert...omic-growth-from-trump-tax-bill/#561b4bf36a1b

    “...the conservative Booth School of Business at the University of Chicago asked 42 economists for their opinion of the payoff from the tax bill. These included multiple Nobel Prize winners, former presidents of the American Economic Association and former White House officials. Only one of the 42 polled thought the Republican bill would boost the economy in a meaningful way. Another 22 disagreed or strongly disagreed about any growth stimulus from the Republican bill and 15 did not answer. ”


    I should add that I personally am a fiscal conservative and a social progressive, so for me, the Trump tax bill is just about the worst of all possible worlds.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  6. OnTheGo

    OnTheGo Registered Users (C)

    WHAT A LOAD OF LIES!

    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...migration-state-of-the-union-2018-1?r=US&IR=T
     
  7. abumiqdad

    abumiqdad Member

    I found it very difficult to discuss with Trump supporters on forums (mainly on visa forums) as they somehow missed the fact that Trump is a truly despicable, horrible person and a compulsive liar. And he should not be respected, ever! The majority of his statements were flat out lies - immigration matters included. In one thread that i had participated in, a typical Trump supporter just commented "fake news" when facts got presented to him/her [even though after that it was revealed he/she had no idea about anything!] (and surprising his/her comment got likes from a number of senior forumers - which i found very weird as i thought sane and people with the ability to think would not support this kind of childish behavior - but of course, if you support Trump, you would usually imitate what he does)

    anyway, i think this is the CBO estimate of the projected deficit for the tax bill that Trump signed.

    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/53297


    The staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation determined that provisions in the Chairman’s amendment would increase deficits over the 2018-2027 period by $1.4 trillion (not including the macroeconomic effects of enacting the legislation). By CBO’s estimate, additional debt service would boost the 10-year increase in deficits to $1.7 trillion. CBO’s June 2017 baseline projects that debt held by the public in 2027 will be 91.2 percent of gross domestic product. As a result of those higher deficits, debt held by the public in that year, under H.R. 1, would be about 6 percent greater, reaching 97.1 percent of gross domestic product.
     
  8. Mushy_hot

    Mushy_hot Registered Users (C)

    “a single immigrant can bring in virtually unlimited numbers of distant relatives.” one of the quotes of Trump SOTU speech. Commander In Chief is a self troll
     
    abumiqdad likes this.
  9. Pierre82

    Pierre82 Well-Known Member

    Hi @Sihem

    I actually prefer the U.S. since i have several family members and friends that would make the transition a lot easier for me. I'm now starting to consider Canada since I have a brother that lives over there for over 15 years. I will be saving up some money and apply for the express entry program this year because I already made an investment for an international certification in the U.S.

    I have never been to Canada but I'm planning to obtain a tourist visa to check how are things over there and at the same time spend time with my brother :)
     
    Qewty, Sihem and Kojo E like this.
  10. Sihem

    Sihem Member

    Planning to do the same :)
     
    Pierre82 likes this.
  11. Buffon

    Buffon Registered Users (C)

    Yeah I mean the Trump comments on the visa lottery....I'm not interested in most of these politics at all, but the man is just standing there lying to the fullest definition of the word.

    "The third pillar ends the visa lottery -- a program that randomly hands out green cards without any regard for skill, merit, or the safety of our people." https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/30/politics/2018-state-of-the-union-transcript/index.html

    Like no....green cards are not sprayed out at random off a plane to the ground and whoever gets 'em gets 'em. It's absurd. He's either illiterate, insane, a total liar....or at best someone told him a bunch of nonsense and he decided to parrot that at the State of the Union without taking a single minute to even google it.
     
  12. abumiqdad

    abumiqdad Member

    He is a compulsive liar and has been proven by all of his actions before assuming the top role in the country. The birther movement was one of the evidence of a liar he is.
     
  13. OnTheGo

    OnTheGo Registered Users (C)

    I have been discussing this on a German-American forum. While I personally think it is a disgrace to be spreading such obvious lies about the mechanics of the dv lottery program in order to influence public opinion and gather support to terminate it rather quickly, there is some consensus on that forum that the lottery program is counter productive to getting well educated people into the country....the same reason he wants to cut family based visas drastically, as it has been proven to bring in the least educated of all immigrants. As for the dv lottery...most of the visas have been issued to people from Africa and some people on the from said that it was impossible to verify the authenticity of documents presented as proof of education (equivalent to high school diploma) in many African countries, because you can literally 'buy' fake diplomas and degrees quite easily (Bakschisch) - I am not sure if that is true, but apparently many US embassy staff (case officers?) are said to be local people that may be biased in their decisions. Personally, I think that's a bit far fetched, as I would have thought that US embassy case officers know about the potential of fake documents and do more thorough checks, maybe in conjunction with investigating the issuing Universities - but again I am not sure about any of this.

    The actual underlying reason for Trump to wanting to terminate or restrict this visa program and others apparently has more to do with reversing some of the following trends that have been taking place over the past few decades of immigration:
    [​IMG]
     
  14. SusieQQQ

    SusieQQQ Well-Known Member

    Wow, onthego, sounds like you have the German trump fan base arguing with you there.
    Final decisions in all consulates are made by Americans - local guys are always employed but don’t make the decisions and the high refusal rate in some embassies, west Africa in particular, is precisely because of fake documents. They are very careful to ensure authenticity and where know they are fake, or where they can’t authenticate, like many parts of Somalia, there are just massively high refusal rates. I think the embassy handling Somalis actually warns them they have very little chance to succeed because of problems with documents.
    Of course the truth never stepped in the way of propaganda before, why bother letting it do that now? :rolleyes: your forum friends will believe what they want.


    [​IMG]
     
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  15. saabe

    saabe Active Member

    @OnTheGo

    -You say "backchich" which is arabic for "bribe". I guess you refer to arabic-speaking North-African countries,...well let me tell you north-africa has extremely high rates of successful interviews. African countries with high rates of refusal are just a few, basically west-african countries.
    -"locals" in embassies work as security staff and other non-critical job positions. People who review papers, conduct interviews and issue visas are American citizens.
    -Just 44% are from Africa, not "most" as you say. And when some asian countries where still eligible,...the percentage of africans was lower.
    -Also Diversity Visa immigrants are not uneductated and low-skilled as you imply. They do generally better than other Green Card recipients. 32% work in white-collar skilled jobs. And just 3% are unemployed.-->http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/trump-dishonest-diversity-visa-lottery-attack-article-1.3707384
    -Yes, most family members of low-skilled immigrants from Mexico and Central america obviously share the social status of their sponsoring relatives. But even the poorest and least-educated immigrants in the US,...have to work their butt off in the US and can't rely on welfare. Those who work the hardest usually succeed.
    -The lowest categories of immigrants don't go to the US,....they prefer Europe and especially Merkel-land, a generous super-liberal casi-socialist cradle-to-the-grave welfare-state (California beside look quite conservative) where one can live decently without working. In america you just can't do that, you can't survive without working, laws are very tough, police are no joke, and people are armed and ready to defend themselves. Petty criminals and professional bums just have no place there. they have Europe for that.
    -And finally, tell your friends with their attitude,.....better if they stay where they are. America is tough but just,...and there is no place for that kind of euro-style subtle racism.
     
  16. OnTheGo

    OnTheGo Registered Users (C)

    The term was not used by myself but thrown in by someone who was actually married to someone from Iran and has been living in a number of Muslim countries for many years, so I suppose he used that term as he knows it but he was referring to fake documents being a general problem. Personally, just like I stated, I can't think that this could even be a problem or would even lead to visas being issued as I do believe in the integrity of the visa system.

    That is exactly what I thought, too and it didn't make any sense to me that the essential task of a case officer would be given to anybody else but a US Citizen that had been sworn into their position and trained in the US.

    You are correct, it is most definitely under half of all visas but in the views of those critical to an alleged widespread use of fake documents, it is too many. Again, these are not my own thoughts - I am just conveying what people think out there.

    I didn't imply anything. You do not need to convince me here - I have read the same type of articles and have been a member of this forum for years. Therefore, I know that the majority of dv lottery visa selectees that are making it through the process have a better education and/or qualification on average compared with the rest of green card recipients. My comment about low education was in reference to a) the perception of many that certain countries make widespread use of fake documents about their qualifications, b) the fact that the majority of green cards recipients with low(er) education standards are coming through the family sponsored visa category which also makes up the majority of green cards being issued and c) that there is no true 'merit-based' (i.e. points-tested skill based) green card category in place as of yet, and compared to the dv lottery, such a skill-based visa would be superior to a general minimum educational requirement (dv lottery).

    That may be true, but it has nothing to do with the 'merit-based' talk ... they don't want low/least-educated people to be getting green cards any longer, at least not more than necessary, which is why they are limiting family based visas to spouse and underage children.


    It also has to do with geography....you will hardly find any South- or Central Americans take a dinghy across the Atlantic in order to apply for asylum in 'Germoney'. Likewise, it would be hard to arrive in the US from Middle East of Africa, unless they are able to enter on a legal visa and overstay or apply for asylum once they are in the country that way.

    They are mostly US-citizens of German descent and they are all living in the US, many of them have been there for decades - so yes, they will be staying where they are. I don't agree with your perception of 'racism' here though - they have concerns about the quality of people in terms of education/qualifications/skills vs. what the US needs, and integration/assimilation, and their concerns are not limited to certain world regions but according to how the population has dramatically changed mainly as a result of the massive family-based immigration, in reference to the diagram I posted above and the outcome of the opposite of what a 'merit-based' immigration system would provide.

    I will not hide the fact though, that they are all very aware of what's been happening in Germany under Merkel's insane "open border" agenda (illegal according to the constitution/Grundgesetz and the Dublin-Convention BTW) since mid-2015...an unvetted, unrestricted mass immigration into the country has been taken place with adverse outcomes on public safety, social cohesion and integrity. So they are concerned about immigration from those countries based on what has been happening in Germany. They don't want this to become in problem in the US, based on what they see happening in Europe, and as such rather favor restricted immigration laws - not outright bans but more emphasis on education and skills which lowers the prospect for engaging in crime or not integrating well.
     
  17. saabe

    saabe Active Member

    Problem-Immigrants from "those" countries (you mean Africa and Middle-East) is not a problem in the US, since the huge distance and the very high-cost impose some sort of "natural selection" and the lowest of the low are unlikely to end up on the other side of the planet,..and Middle-Easterners and Africans are generally doing good in the US. Problems in the US are more likely to come from neighbors (Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean) while in Germany it's more likely to come from the Balkans, Eastern Europe, north-Africa and the middle-east. The exception to this rule, are UN-sponsored Refugees,...who are not affected by this "natural selection" I've just mentioned,...and in the US they have some problems with Somalians. As to Germany and Europe in general,...their crazy liberalism doesn't help immigrants to integrate. Wages in low-skilled non-unionized jobs are low and social benefits are high,....so if a low-skilled immigrant has the choice between a 1.000 euro job and 1.000 euros in benefits for doing nothing, the choice is easy...Mass Immigration and the Welfare state are incompatible,...and this is something they should learn in the US, since many states like California are worryingly emulating European soft-socialism,...which pushed your bright and highly-educated (I assume) German friends to leave their utopia (for Bernie Sanders' fans and the new Democrats,...Western Europe is paradise to be emulated): High taxes, crazy bureaucracy, state regulations and little incentives to excel.

    As to "racism",...european IMMIGRANTS (I put it in capital letters, because they hate being called immigrants, they prefer the word "expats"), are not just racist (not like the morons who put a hood over their head, but in a subtle, unconscious and paternalistic way,....and your friends are not just racist but ignorant since they look at the situation in Germany to collectively classify Africans as "uneducated" and "unwanted"),...but arrogant and ungrateful. You'll often find them in forums criticizing the US, comparing it to the "sophisticated" europe and talking with contempt about "ignorant" Americans,....while they're enjoying a 6 figure NET salary, their own big house (not some rented tiny flat), freedom, (they're not worried about facing jail for "illegal thoughts") and a quality of life they would never dream of in their densely-populated, over-priced and high-taxed countries. They also tend to equate difficulty with quality and think their education is superior ,...since they had to memorize entire books to get a pass mark and spent 8 years to get a 4-year bachelor degree. The truth is: European "free" public universities haven't produced anything of value in the past 50-60 years, and the brightest of european scientists have to move to American universities to achieve something.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  18. Mushy_hot

    Mushy_hot Registered Users (C)

    Rep. Sen John McCain proposed new bill that has no chain migration and DV lottery. But it also has no wall but fund for border security and good thing is trump rejected it and he said that no wall no bill, at least he didn't mention DV and chain migration
     
    Ireeln likes this.
  19. MJS_DV2018_EU

    MJS_DV2018_EU New Member

    How is it a good thing that it was rejected? Isn't pretty much the IDEAL situation for the President to back a bipartisan bill that narrows the scope to only DACA and Border Protection funding, and move on from the topic of immigration - at least for the time being? Sorry, your sentiment that "good thing is" Trump rejected it confused me. The way I see it, it isn't a good thing at all; the government is still at an impasse, and the topic of the DV remains in the crosshairs.
     
  20. Mushy_hot

    Mushy_hot Registered Users (C)


    He also rejected bill that terminated DV lottery. You didn't get why I call it "Good". He wanted 25b for wall and he was given border security fund, not 25b though. Good thing is now if congress gives him wall then there might be a chance of a deal without terminating DV lottery and chain migration.
     

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