Traffic Tickets do not count!

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pravasi_indian1

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There are various threads on the traffic tickets. I wanted to contribute my experience for folks who are in a dilema of declaring their traffic tickets while applying for naturalization:

When I filed my N400, I had 2 traffic violations which I paid for. But, after consulting a lawyer, I had answered NO on the citation related questions on the N400. During my interview today, when the officer asked me if I ever was arrested / detained etc., I asked the officer if I should have said yes for the traffic tickets, because my lawyer advised me that the traffic tickets are not to be considered unless they were DUI. The officer mentioned, the lawyer provided right information and the normal traffic tickets DO NOT COUNT. (My wife had an interview with other officer who too expressed the same opinion that the traffic tickets do not count).

I just wanted every anxious applicants to know that I have seen too much of propoganda on this board about the traffic tickets and far too much importance is being given to it. If you asked me, I would answer NO to such questions and reveal during the interview that you had traffic tickets which were paid (if you did so). In my case, I have one pending ticket, which I am going to fight next month. I had told that to the officer but he did not show any interest in knowing about it.

I urge everyone to take cues from the postings on this wonderful forum and use one's judgement. I would not blindly trust someone who implies that he / she knows it all about the immigration (including me :rolleyes: ) .

My timeline
DO: Hartford CT
RD: 12/23/05
FP: 01/24/06
Interview Notice Date: 03/05/06
Interview Date: 04/20/06
Oath: 05/26/06
 
First things first: CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

Yes, I did not list the one ticket I got and will mention it during the interview. I am too worried about it. The only thing that worries me - like most other applicants - is the threat of being stuck in the infamous name check fiasco.

Cheers!


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N-400 @ VSC
PD: 01/17/06
Check cashed: 01/23/06
ND: 02/14/06 (received 02/18/06)
FP notice: 03/01/06 (received 03/05/06)
FP: 03/15/06 (FBI reported back to USCIS the same day)
Online Status disappeared on 04/12/2006
ID/OD: 06/20/2006
 
It appears that neither the immigation lawyers nor the immigration officers are as well versed with the law as does this guy. I think they should get training from him. And yeah, I forgot to include the senators that put together the immigration laws, as candidates that need to be trained by this guy.
 
There is a confusion with the wording USCIS uses.
When I filed my application, according to the application, you have to list any citations. But when you go and read the manual that they provide to help you fill out your application, it says that you only have to list criminal violations.
 
My interviewing officer asked about the tickets. She flipped through the paperwork and was impressed that I had the paperwork associated with the tickets. She said "you are very thorough. Most people don't have this stuff." I have no idea what her intent was, but I took it to mean that if I did not have it, she would have put my case on hold until I did. The instructions say that you need to provide evidence. Anyone who wishes to gamble may do so, but if you take the time and trouble to get the records, you will be all set.

If tickets really don't matter, then people who don't provide the evidence to CIS can post here and we can see over time, whether CIS wants the stuff or not.
 
The neverending Story

Uuugh ... if there is ever a reason for the USCIS to entirely forget about traffic citations then it is because people never end biting their citation tails in immigration forums. Please, it has all been told so many times....

The USCIS rephrased this section and is not excluding traffic citations anymore. Although nobody cares about a few 'normal' tickets they fall under the discussed question.

You forgot about them ... don't worry (unless you had so many or 'bad' ones that you tried to hide them). You think, you don't have to mention them ... fine ! Truth is that in normal cases this will not hurt you.

But it definitely does not hurt to mention them if you are uncertain about if you should, doesn't it?

Also, it is true that alot falls under the discretion of an adjudication officer ... they are not all carved from the same wood. So if your AO said that they don't matter - good for you. You hear that other AO made contrary statements.

If this is the only problem on a person's petition ... congratulations ! He/She will pass !

Alex
 
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Superho, be glad that the system is not 'standardized' ... the adjudication officer'ss discretion may save a person from getting into trouble by their personal judgement of a 'borderline' situation. An AO cannot bring you into trouble though for something that is not against the law .... so more likely than not some discretion is good for the individuals who want to become US citizens.

Alex
 
Wow, I can't believe the traffic ticket issue is still under discussion :)! Again, I was stupid enough to listen to the 1-800-know nothing USCIS line and DID NOT list the one 'ticket' that I got (failure to obey highway sign).

Folks, do not panic!!!!!! Applicants should have learned by following this forum, for instance, to LIST ALL citations, tickets etc. etc. If one did not do so on the application, it will not 'kill' you during the interview. Just gather the required documentation and tell him/her about it during the interview. Unless, as I think AlexanderG mentioned, it is a DUI etc. or you are obviously trying to hide something, bringing it up during the interview won't hurt... .


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N-400 @ VSC
PD: 01/17/06
Check cashed: 01/23/06
ND: 02/14/06 (received 02/18/06)
FP notice: 03/01/06 (received 03/05/06)
FP: 03/15/06 (FBI reported back to USCIS the same day)
Online Status disappeared on 04/12/2006
ID/OD: 06/20/2006
 
JoeF said:
Well, while they don't really care about "normal" speeding tickets, they have to be listed anyway.
Previous versions of the N-400 explicitly excluded traffic tickets. Some people took that to mean that they don't have to list their DUIs. But CIS is quite interested in stuff like that, so they removed the wording, with the result that all traffic tickets have to be listed.
BTW, here it is from the horse's mouth: http://uscis.gov/graphics/aboutus/congress/testimonies/1998/980305.pdf
"In the alternative we request that this language be amended to omit references to "minor traffic violations." To leave this reference in place could prove confusing and misleading, and could result in an applicant's withholding information that is relevant to his or her application. Depending on the actual statutory elements of an offense, what may be called "minor traffic violations" could render an applicant ineligible for naturalization. For example, in California, failure to appear in court, a violation of § 40508A of the Vehicle Code, and failure to pay a fine, a violation of § 40508B of the Vehicle Code, are both misdemeanor violations, regardless of the underlying offenses. Accordingly, if an applicant for naturalization has recently failed to pay a fine resulting from a simple parking ticket, he or she may have been convicted of a misdemeanor offense of failure to pay the fine, and may be on probation. An applicant who is on probation is ineligible to naturalize. Again, depending on the state, an examining officer may be compelled to investigate "minor" traffic violations, because they may lead to offenses or dispositions that render an applicant ineligible for naturalization by statute. The proposed amendment in the bill is too limiting and does not take into account local or state law."

So, I guess neither your lawyer nor the CIS examiner was quite up-to-date on this issue.
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if he had his interview recently, he used the old version of N-400, and Joe you can scare people and live in fear for the rest of your life..but traffic tickets DO NOT count, unless they are DUI or reckless driving. PERIOD !
 
JoeF said:
So what? Again, while the particular officer interviewing you may not have cared, this does not mean that others are the same.
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The officer who interviewed me seem to be very interested in traffic tickets. She asked me to show the certified court dispositions (even though I clearly listed them as TRAFFIC-CITATION).

I think it does depend on the officer interviewing you and since there are no specific guidelines around traffic tickets, its upto the officer's descretion.
 
For what its worth, I can tell by my experience ( and I have written previously also on this wonderful forum ) that my interviewer actually got confused that I have said "Yes" to the question - have you ever been detained etc etc... Then when I told her its just some minor citations, she said "Oh..." but I could see that she was a little irritated that I had mentioned "minor" traffic violations on the form. I don't know if it was related but exactly at that point she got up and said I will be right back after talking to my supervisor. She came back and everything went well but I got a feeling that she just went to check that with her supervisor. But then again, I did mention traffic tickets so maybe you can too :D
 
I think it comes down to the personality of the applicant. We all know USCIS is after serious violations and not minor traffic violations. That said, the form requires one to state ALL violations. If some did NOT list it and got away with it, it does not mean anything.

The logic here is: I walked accross the freeway and did not get killed . So even though it is not OK, I got through so you can too.

Coming to the philosphical part, some people would interpret rules and laws with a common sense approach - just the spirit of the law and not the letter. Then there are those who would comply with the law or rule always. The latter group sleeps well and have low BP:) I happen to fall in the latter group and will list one warning traffic ticket I got. I don't want to be swearing on something not written on the form but provided verbally to the officer during the interview. Technically if one did not write on the form that they ever got a citation, but swore under oath everything is true, by my personal standards that is a more serious violation of the law.

That said one, should do what one is comfortable with, because neither group can convince the other. Myer Briggs reading will help here:)
 
It came down to materiality: no one in his sane mind is going to want to know if you got a speeding ticket for driving 2 miles above the limit. Listing items that like on an application confuses the processing agent and distracts him from issues that really matter to the application process.

Laws are not absolute, even in this litigious country. Laws are written by people, interpreted by people and enforced by people. Just use your common sense and you will be fine.

Don't listen to anyone who pretends to know more than he does.
 
JoeF said:
So what? Again, while the particular officer interviewing you may not have cared, this does not mean that others are the same.
I suggest learning about the law before posting such BS.
Bottom line: you have to list all citations. The form says: "Have you ever been arrested, cited or detained by any law enforcement officer (including USCIS or former INS and military officers) for any reason?"
What is so hard to understand about that? Why do you think "ever" does exclude speeding tickets??? What kind of dictionary are you using???
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As pointed out by qili many times,
Joef
1) You are not trained in law
2) You explicitely waives any obligation for taking anybody your advice.
3) You are not liable to tell truth.

But lawyers/CIS officers are trained and liable for actions they make. e.g If CIS officer acted againest law, he can be sued and prosecuted, and same goes to lawyer, they are responsible/sued for any illegal advice. And here in this case, where reputed lawyer suggested member not to mention traffic ctations and CIS officer also confirmed that fact. That holds more value to all members than your personal opinion. Keep your opinion to yourself and listen to lawyers and CIS officers has to say. I think, you are way out of line and has to stop insisting on giving advice in the area where you are not expert by any standard.
 
qili said:
It came down to materiality: no one in his sane mind is going to want to know if you got a speeding ticket for driving 2 miles above the limit. Listing items that like on an application confuses the processing agent and distracts him from issues that really matter to the application process.

Laws are not absolute, even in this litigious country. Laws are written by people, interpreted by people and enforced by people. Just use your common sense and you will be fine.

Don't listen to anyone who pretends to know more than he does.
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EXACTLY !!!
i have a friend who was on GC for 30 years before he applied for citizenship in 2003, he forgot how many tickets he had, and how many price clubs / AAA / GYM membership he joined, was he suppose to list ALL of them on the N-400 ???

JoeF i bet you are from some communist or totalitarian country, you used to be affraind of the law, instead of respect it.
this is america, people live free here, people learn to use common sense here.
 
I was told by an immigration officer for my K1 that although minor traffic tickets are not important to the INS, failure to disclose them when asked could result in denial of the visa.

So... Minor traffic tickets are generally not important, but if the form asks for citations then you MUST list them.
 
Pffff .... we are talking here again about one's interpretation of this question.

The question in itself is however very clear.

"Have you ever been arrested, cited or detained by any law enforcement officer (including USCIS or former INS and military officers) for any reason?"


you .... ever .... cited ... any reason


Answer this the best you can or want and get on with life. Fact is, if you include your traffic citation you are on the safe side - no matter how you interpret the intention of this question (Nobody is actually asking for the petitioners interpretation)

If you want to leave your citations off because you think your citation does not mean that you have been cited by a law enforcement officer for a reason ... well, I guess then that is how it is in your situation.

Alex.
 
JoeF said:
Of course. The N-400 is signed under penalty of perjury. The signer declares that everything on it is true. If the signer knowlingly omits traffic tickets, the signer has lied, and committed perjury, which is a felony and makes the person deportable.
And all amount of screaming, and insulting posts, etc. don't change that. Trying to shoot the messenger doesn't change this basic fact, either.
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Jeez, your life must be hell...how can you live in constant fear !
 
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