Traffic tickets and naturalization (threads merged)

rhappy:

Amazing! Simply amazing. I don't think I have ever heard of someone being asked to show docs. for such minor traffic tickets. By this account, then probably 80-90% of applicants are lieing because a lot of people have not mentioned traff. tiks. that are <$500 and not drug/alch. related. The n400 is ambiguous about this part.

I am really convinced now that an interview is very very dependent on the individual IO, his/her personality, how good/bad of a day they are having and what their experiences have been interviewing people (lot's of fraudulent apps., etc.). If you think of it, they are Interview "Officer's", which means they probably have law enf. backgrounds and are trained to look for clues and signs of something fishy. Not saying your case was such, but the fact that all your tickets were during the last 5 yrs. *could have* had some bearing, but still I cannot imagine that. After all you were under oath and listed the tiks.

I posted something on another thread that might interest you: http://immigrationportal.com/showpost.php?p=1629365&postcount=2

One question I have: do you know that bec. of the tickets all being in the last 5 years you were asked for proof? The N400 questions all ask "have you ever ...". So the 5 yr. thing seems irrelevant, but obviousely in your case you seem to think it mattered... Can you fill us in?
 
It wasn't the simple traffic ticket that was the issue, it was that he had a court for a ticket "Hired an attorney and it was dismissed". If you had gone to court for any ticket they might then want reciepts for all your other tickets. If they had been just regular speeding tickets you get and mail the fee in, then this wouldn't have been an issue. It was the fact he hired an autourney for one that raised the red flag, and so all the other tickets then needed to be looked at for their seriousness...
 
warlord said:
It wasn't the simple traffic ticket that was the issue, it was that he had a court for a ticket "Hired an attorney and it was dismissed". If you had gone to court for any ticket they might then want reciepts for all your other tickets. If they had been just regular speeding tickets you get and mail the fee in, then this wouldn't have been an issue. It was the fact he hired an autourney for one that raised the red flag, and so all the other tickets then needed to be looked at for their seriousness...
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warloard:

I think you might be jumping to conclusions. Do you know for a fact the stuff about attorney and going to court came up in the interview? Just becase rhappy mentions it on here doesn't make it so.

This is just my opinion: I don't think that going to court and getting a $200 tik. dismissed vs. just paying the $200 fine makes a lick of a difference. If anything, it reflects better on the person if they had the tik dismissed! It means they were not guilty of speeding in the first place! I cannot imagine how it's possible for one to remember all the tiks. they got over a 5, 10, 20 yr. timespan!! Think about that? Even if you went to court in 1989 to contest a simple $50 tik - seriousely - are you going to remember that? Does USCIS expect you to remember that, even at the interview? Worse still, do you think courts keep records of $50 tiks. issued 17 yrs. ago? This is a very legitimate scenario. Nuns get tickets, priests get tickets, CEO's get tickets, etc. They are good people, not people of "bad moral character"! These are not crim. offenses or crimes of moral turpitude! Far from it :)

What this seems like is that if you tell the truth (about minor traffic tiks.) and bring up the stuff, you run the risk of getting penalized, whereas if you ........

Anyway, I digress.......... this is a futile argument
 
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naumank4273:

Have you applied at the Guiness book of world records?

3 months from appl. to oath is sizzling fast.

Congratulations!
 
mario123 said:
This is just my opinion: I don't think that going to court and getting a $200 tik. dismissed vs. just paying the $200 fine makes a lick of a difference.
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Actually I think you may be wrong. Immigration law has definite oddities surrounding charges and their eventual disposition. From my (very) limited understanding, the key issue is whether the defendant undertook any alternate programs in-lieu of a conviction, because such action is considered an admittance of guilt under immigration law. Such programs may include defensive driving courses, alcohol/drug rehab etc, etc. The net effect is that any time a citation/arrest led to a court appearance, USCIS want to know the original charges and the complete disposition of the case.

Now all this is probably a little over-dramatic for a simple speeding ticket, but if it were in fact a dismissed DUI, there would certainly be more impact on the outcome of the naturalization application.

...just my $0.02
 
boatbod said:
Actually I think you may be wrong. Immigration law has definite oddities surrounding charges and their eventual disposition. From my (very) limited understanding, the key issue is whether the defendant undertook any alternate programs in-lieu of a conviction, because such action is considered an admittance of guilt under immigration law. Such programs may include defensive driving courses, alcohol/drug rehab etc, etc. The net effect is that any time a citation/arrest led to a court appearance, USCIS want to know the original charges and the complete disposition of the case.

Now all this is probably a little over-dramatic for a simple speeding ticket, but if it were in fact a dismissed DUI, there would certainly be more impact on the outcome of the naturalization application.

...just my $0.02
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boatbod:

You are mixing up different things here. Saying that you had 5 speeding tiks. all well below $500 apiece (with 2 being dismissed) is a far cry from saying you got 5 tickets for DUI/drugs and they were still dismissed. That's the difference and that's the difference USCIS specifically states in the N400 - which is not to report them......... or is it "Report them and don't include documentation" :rolleyes:

Sigh.
 
mario123 said:
naumank4273:

Have you applied at the Guiness book of world records?

3 months from appl. to oath is sizzling fast.

Congratulations!
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I guess I have been lucky so far (it's not yet done until oath). Besides, the Chicago office moves N-400 applications pretty fast.
 
naumank4273 said:
I guess I have been lucky so far (it's not yet done until oath). Besides, the Chicago office moves N-400 applications pretty fast.
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Did you get your N445 at the int., or was it mailed to you?

Do you know anything about what "recommended for approval" means when they check the "Congratulations" box on your N-652? If you search the threads here there is a lot of debate about a supervisor checking the app. after the interview and I too was told that by my IO, but.................. what really can they check? Do they check to make sure the IO actually did their homework, like check the FBI results, etc? Or is it some other check?
 
Mario,

I'm basing this off the original statment "The interviewer has asked me for a Court Disposition Order for all the tickets." . So that to me would mean it was disclosed to the officer that he had gone to court and this was how this came out.

I never needed to document my traffic tickets, but was asked in my interview if I had ever gone to court (for anything). So quite simpley this question was asked as well and then he said yes. The officer probably then asked what was it for, and then the traffic infractions came out. That's the most likely scenario.

It just so happend that this was traffic related, if he had gone to court because his neighbor sued him, they would probably want the court proceedings as well from that. The traffic part wasn't the issue, it was him admitting he went to court for whatever reason was the issue...
 
mario123 said:
Did you get your N445 at the int., or was it mailed to you?

Do you know anything about what "recommended for approval" means when they check the "Congratulations" box on your N-652? If you search the threads here there is a lot of debate about a supervisor checking the app. after the interview and I too was told that by my IO, but.................. what really can they check? Do they check to make sure the IO actually did their homework, like check the FBI results, etc? Or is it some other check?
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I got the N445 in the mail (a week after the interview).

I believe "recommended for approval" is the standard phrase. I suspect that every approved case has to go through a supervisor anyway but the time a supervisor spends on any particular case is different. If it's a simple case, the supervisor will usually confirm the approval, but if it's a complicated case or if the interviewing IO cannot make a decision, then the supervisor will make a decision. Just my speculation here.
 
mario123 said:
You are mixing up different things here. Saying that you had 5 speeding tiks. all well below $500 apiece (with 2 being dismissed) is a far cry from saying you got 5 tickets for DUI/drugs and they were still dismissed. That's the difference and that's the difference USCIS specifically states in the N400 - which is not to report them......... or is it "Report them and don't include documentation" :rolleyes: .
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Nope, I'm not mixing up anything. What I'm trying to say is the IO wants to see the court disposition because it shows the original charges and outcome of the case including whether it was dismissed because the defendant participated in an alternate sentencing activity.

Furthermore, the N-400 requires you to list all citations regardless of the amount of fine or nature of offense. The concession given to citations incurring fines under $500 and not involving alcohol/drugs is that you do not need to automatically provide documentation (i.e. court disposition). Some people (including apparently a good number of IOs) interpret this to mean you don't need to even list those offenses.
 
warlord said:
The traffic part wasn't the issue, it was him admitting he went to court for whatever reason was the issue...
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Exactly! As soon as you admit this to an IO, you may as well be prepared to hand over the court disposition, because you will almost certainly be asked for it.
 
Rhappy, Did you mention in your app that you had tickets and how did this topic come up during the interview. I know lot of friends (atleast 5) all in the Los Angeles area that did not mention this in the app. and the topic never came up and they did not list the traffic tickets in the app. I hope to be in the same bucket..

rhappy said:
I had an interview couple of weeks ago; two experiences that may be of use to some of you attending a Naturalization Interview:
1. Ticket - Ihave had 3 speeding tickets in the last 13 years as a GC Holder; unfortunately; they are also in the last 5 years.
2003 - Paid a fine of $150 out of ignorance
2004 - Hired an attorney and it was dismissed
2006 - Defensive driving and dismissed
The USCIS web site clearly states that no documents are needed if your fines were lesser than $500 for any individual citation
Result: The interviewer has asked me for a Court Disposition Order for all the tickets. Went to the courts and they have no record for the 2003 & 2004 & could only give a certificate that my record was clear; which I have mailed to the USCIS - While I wait & I do not foresee any issues; it is unfortunate that the Officer asks me for information beyond what the law allows her and I had no recourse at that point of time
2. Tax Returns - Was asked to get the Transcripts for the last 5 years. When I called the automated system it would provide for the last 3 years. Spoke with an IRS Officer and was told that the system only provides for 3 years - there is a disconnect between the IRS & the USCIS. I carried copies for the earlier 2 years which was accepted.
My wife and my sons had interviews and they were all asked for any citations for traffic - I understand excessive tickets are grounds for rejection on grounds of "Bad Moral Character"
Hope this information helps individuals who are scheduled for Naturalization Interviews and also a caution for those on GC and who plan to become citizens - take care with your driving.

Best wishes
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Me too. I have been in the US for close to 20 yrs (F1-->PT-->H1-->GC) and in that time have gotten about 5 tickets, all of which were dropped except maybe 1 or 2. NONE were serious (over $50-$100) - just minor traffic stuff (illegal U turn, speeding, etc.). I didn't mention any in my N400 bec. I thought they are not required.
 
About Traffic fine and Tax receipts

Friends,

I called up in the courts where I had paid traffic fine..they issue the transcript/certificate of paid fee for $10.

also you can get tax transcript for last 4 yrs for free from IRS tax site.

It is my opinion that rather than discussing whether to add it not to add it..I am going to answer yes to questions 16, 17 , 18 and take the traffic fine transcript and also the tax transcripts.(plus the copies of my tax returns which I made everytime i filed tax).

I think of it like I am buying peace of mind for $20 rather than not mentioning tickets and being nervous about it.

Regards,
Manoj
 
It's a dumb idea to list minor tickets on the N-400. I ran a poll on this forum to see what people had experienced; if you see the results, you won't bother listing the tickets.

I didn't list my tickets on my N-400, but took court dispositions to the interview, just in case. The topic never came up, and I sailed through.
 
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The general consensus of immigration lawyers as well state only in excess of $500 and or DUI should be the only ones mentioned. But like it was said I think of it like I am buying peace of mind for $20 rather than not mentioning tickets and being nervous about it., that would be the way to go then if you would worry about it.

It definatly doesn't hurt at all to have them and you most likely not ever present them, but at least you wouldn't be nervous thinking the minor traffic tickets are a big deal...
 
mario123 said:
boatbod:

You are mixing up different things here. Saying that you had 5 speeding tiks. all well below $500 apiece (with 2 being dismissed) is a far cry from saying you got 5 tickets for DUI/drugs and they were still dismissed. That's the difference and that's the difference USCIS specifically states in the N400 - which is not to report them......... or is it "Report them and don't include documentation" :rolleyes:

Sigh.
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N-400 instructions:(excerpts)

Answer each question by checking ''Yes'' or ''No.'' If any part of a question applies to you, you must answer ''Yes.''

We will use this information to determine your eligibility for citizenship. Answer every question honestly and accurately. If you do not, we may deny your application for lack of good moral character.Answering "Yes" to one of these questions does not always cause an application to be denied.

"Note that unless a traffic incident was alcohol or drug related, you do not need to submit documentation for traffic fines and incidents that did not involve an actual arrest if the only penalty was a fine of less than $500 and/or points on your driver's license."

N-400 Part 10
Question 16 Have you ever been arrested, cited or detained by any law enforcement officer?

------------

A ticket is a citation. According to the instructions, you have to answer yes. The instructions also say you don;t have to provide documentation if it is less than $500 and no alcohol or drugs is involved - it does not say you don't have to report it. The instructions are also clear that not answering a question truthfully is a cause to deny your application for lack of good moral character.

This seems pretty unambiguous to me.
 
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