TN Temp visa

[aatish231]

i am just wondering why is TN a temp visa when you can keep on extending it for unlimited time?

Curious because someone in HR asked me this question, if you compare with H1 its for 6+1 year but in the letter you don't put H1 for a temp period of 3 years whereas in TN you do?

Nelson i am wondering if you or someone else can answer this?

Thanks

 

[CalGreenCard]

i am just wondering why is TN a temp visa when you can keep on extending it for unlimited time?

Curious because someone in HR asked me this question, if you compare with H1 its for 6+1 year but in the letter you don't put H1 for a temp period of 3 years whereas in TN you do?

Nelson i am wondering if you or someone else can answer this?

Thanks

It is possible that standard practice has changed given that I haven't been in TN or H-1B status for a number of years. Back in the day, though, I had a number of TN's and H-1B's and IIRC the temporary nature of the employment was mentioned in ALL employment letters regardless of whether it was a TN or H-1B application.

I do think that the TN letters included a specific time period of employment whereas the H-1B letters did not. I'm not sure the exact reason for this but one reason could be that an H-1B petition ALWAYS includes a Form I-129--which includes a place for giving the time period of employment--so it may not be necessary to also mention those dates in the letter. However a TN letter most commonly stands on its own (although mail-in renewals via form I-129 are possible) so the dates of employment need to be made clear in the letter.

TN can be renewed indefinitely but--in theory--it is still supposed to be temporary. You are supposed to be thinking in terms of coming to the US, completing a specific job for your employer--a job which has a clear beginning and ending--and then going home (Canada/Mexico) when the job is done. If the job takes longer than 3 years to finish then fine--the TN can be renewed indefinitely--but the philosophy behind it is that you are supposed to be coming to the US to do a job and then leaving when the job is done--not settling in permanently.

Of course, the fact that it can be renewed indefinitely means that, in practice, a lot of people do use the TN to stay semi-permanently. But in theory a TN can be denied if it is being used as a substitute for a green card to stay pretty much permanently--although in practice most people do manage to keep renewing them.

And remember that, no matter how many years you've been in TN status, the moment the job does in fact end--via layoff, firing, or resignation--you are out of status and must immediately change to B2 status with a view to leaving the country ASAP. Even if the reason for termination would ordinarily allow you to collect unemployment, you can't do so until after you go back to Canada. That's what really makes it temporary. In a legal sense, the only thing entitling you to stay is your job, and when your job goes, you go. That's very different from a green card or citizenship where you have a legal tie to the country that outlasts any one job.

 

[nelsona]

Let's be clear. TN is a non-immigrant status. It is not a "temporary" status, any more so than any other non-immigrant status. The job for which the TN is being petitioned is what is "temporary", in that, of course, the firm cannot hire you permanently, since you are not a permenant resident (which would come olny if you get an immigrant visa).

There is no maximum number of TN renewals, or TN "clock", simply because the rules don't specify such a limit like they do for 'L' and 'H' status. Other non-immigrant statuses don't have clocks either, so TN is not unusual.

In fact, when you apply for H1, you certainly DO put a specific time period (as part of the LCA process), otherwise it is not granted. The TN letter can be vague ("no more than 3 years"), bu the H1 most assuredly cannot be vague. Perhaps because one does not submit the LCA oneself (unlike TN paperwork at the border), you did not know about the specificity of dates on LCA (there is no such thing as an H1 letter.


As Cal states, "temporary" means that you will leave the US when your status ends, or get another valid status -- just like any other non-immigrant status, by the way.

 

[CalGreenCard]

there is no such thing as an H1 letter.

Again, the practice may have changed in recent years, as I haven't been on H-1B for some time. However there is no question that both companies I worked for on H-1B included H-1B letters--similar in many ways to a TN letter--in the H-1B application package. This was in addition to the Form I-129, the LCA, the fee, and proof of my qualifications.

From the point of view of the employee, the H-1B letter is much less visible, as it is written by the employer, and then sent by the lawyer to USCIS. I didn't even see the H-1B letter--or know that such a letter had even been written--until the lawyer gave me a copy of the complete package after the H-1B was approved. It is quite possible that with some lawyers/employers, it is the practice never to share such letters with the employee. But such letters definitely DO exist.

By contrast the TN letter is extremely visible to the employee as it is the focal point of the entire TN process.

From the point of view of an HR person--which is where the OP's questions originated--both letters are extremely visible as both need to be approved and signed--so it is quite possible that an HR person might have questions about a TN letter, an H-1B letter, or both.

BTW the most recent H-1B letter that I have does specify a temporary three year period of employment--but it does not specify exact dates. So the practice there seemed slightly different from what the original poster is reporting. Both the LCA and the I-129 do specify exact dates.

 

[nelsona]

H1 letter is extraneous, so 'proper' format/content is moot.

 

[TheRealCanadian]

Strictly speaking, all that is required is the I-129 for an H-1, and for a TN merely an offer letter to the alien applicant with the necessary info is necessary. As a matter of practice, attorneys tend to create cover letters for their petitions - I wonder if anyone at USCIS ever reads them.

 

[CalGreenCard]

H1 letter is extraneous, so 'proper' format/content is moot.

Sorry--not buying it. Have you ever been in H-1B status?

The H-1B letter is what ties the whole petition together. Although H-1B is (usually) more flexible than TN, it still requires that it be a for a professional position. The letter is what explains what position is being offered, what the qualifications for that position are, and how the beneficiary meets those qualifications. If all you threw in was a copy of the beneficiary's degree, USCIS wouldn't know whether it is the level of the degree, the field of the degree, the specific coursework, or whatever than qualifies the worker to take on this job. You have to have the letter to explain things. Yes, in a lot of cases it is probably fairly self explanatory and USCIS no doubt can get by with a quick skimming. But you definitely don't want to be filing an H-1B petition without a letter.

The H-1B letter is even more important that the TN letter. If the TN letter misses the mark but only slightly, the person is there face-to-face and questions can be answered directly--moreover if it is during working hours sometimes the employer can be contacted. If the H-1B letter doesn't spell everything out all that USCIS can do is issue a time consuming RFE which benefits neither the employer nor the employee.

 

[CalGreenCard]

As a matter of practice, attorneys tend to create cover letters for their petitions - I wonder if anyone at USCIS ever reads them.

Nope I'm not talking about the attorney's cover letter--that is something else yet again. All of my H-1B packages included both a cover letter from the attorney and a letter of support from the employer/petitioner. Strictly speaking the attorney cover letter isn't part of the petition because the attorney isn't the petitioner--but the employer letter IS a (very important) part of the petition.

Same question for you as for nelson--have either of you guys ever actually been in H-1B status? I had four H-1B's during my nonimmigrant "career" so I have some familiarity with the process. The only possibility is that the standard procedures have changed but a quick Googling suggests that a letter of support from the employer is still very much a standard part of an H-1B petition--so I really don't think things have changed since my day.

 

[TheRealCanadian]

The letter is what explains what position is being offered, what the qualifications for that position are, and how the beneficiary meets those qualifications.

No, the I-129 and LCA do this. The letter has no legal significance.

 

[CalGreenCard]

No, the I-129 and LCA do this. The letter has no legal significance.

Have a look straight from the horse's mouth (USCIS):

USCIS--Understanding H-1B Requirements

If you expand under where it says "+ How do I show that my degree is related to the specialty occupation?" you will find the following:

"A detailed explanation of the specific duties of the position, the product or service your company provides, or the complex nature of the role you will perform, and how your degree relates to the role."

The above, in essence, is what goes in the H-1B letter. It is true that the I-129 and the LCA gather some of the required information. However of the above "detailed explanation" requested, there is room on the form only for the first area--the specific duties--and for that only about two lines are allowed. Unless the case is very, very straightforward, 2 lines aren't going to suffice.

 

[nelsona]

My firm added a 200 page copy of their annual report to my application, to show they were finanacially viable. Does that mean it is required? No,

As I said, again, there is no H1 letter. Every answer on I-129 can be enhanced with explanatory material. This is typically done wit ha sheet stating "Explanatory infotrmation for Part XY, question X:".... If your firm used a letter, great. Not required though. In fact, if one needed to expalin 3 or four answers, a letter would be more confusing than the accepted method of attaching separte expalantory notes. And where exactly does the current topic the dates have to do with degree relation? Surely the dates on I-129 do not need to be further expalined in a letter.

Anyway, you got your H1's so did I.

btw, there is an H1 forum for these types of issues -- I don't go there if that's any encourgaement!

 

[CalGreenCard]

My firm added a 200 page copy of their annual report to my application...Every answer on I-129 can be enhanced with explanatory material...

It seems to me that you are simply proving my point. You don't need to include anything at all besides the basic forms in the sense that they will cash the check and formally consider the application. But to get it APPROVED it is REQUIRED that the petitioner prove that the beneficiary is qualified for H-1B status. The basic questions and space provided on the I-129 and LCA forms simply are not sufficient to prove this. Thus additional material is required to have a chance at approval. Your employer/lawyer did it with an annual report and an extra explanatory sheet--my employer/lawyer did it with a letter--but in both cases the additional material was because the basic forms were not sufficient.

And where exactly does the current topic the dates have to do with degree relation?Surely the dates on I-129 do not need to be further expalined in a letter.

Well the answer to the OP's question is that the dates wouldn't need to be included in the additional material because that info IS on the basic form.

btw, there is an H1 forum for these types of issues -- I don't go there if that's any encourgaement!

This IS a TN discussion and I'm replying from a TN perspective. That is--HR is doing their first TN for someone but has previous experience with H-1B's that they've sponsored using a lawyer. As such HR may legitimately have questions about how the TN differs from the H-1B--since they have experience with H-1B's but not TN's. Stating that an H-1B letter wasn't actually required is irrelevant if their lawyer did have them write a letter--which seems to have been the case w/the OP.

The question for this thread is not whether an H-1B letter is or is not required but rather how an H-1B letter--when it does happen to be used--differs from or is similar to a TN letter--which IS required.

 

[nelsona]

If the "letter" had the form of bullet-points to address each 'limited-space' exapnsive answer, then, this served its purpose. Otherwise, it was legal "padding", just like my firm's Annual report.

Sorry--not buying it. Have you ever been in H-1B status?

Funny that you would think I would be talking off the top of my head. Thanks.

The question for this thread is not whether an H-1B letter is or is not required but rather how an H-1B letter--when it does happen to be used--differs from or is similar to a TN letter--which IS required.

H1-B topic.

 

[CalGreenCard]

If the "letter" had the form of bullet-points to address each 'limited-space' exapnsive answer, then, this served its purpose. Otherwise, it was legal "padding", just like my firm's Annual report.

I would still suggest that the form does not allow for enough information to make an H-1B application approvable. It goes beyond just sometimes needing to expand on answers where the space provided is too brief. I would suggest that the form simply doesn't provide space to explain--even briefly--key elements of the petition that are necessary.

For example, the professional position offered must be one that requires a degree. The form asks for a description of the job duties but there is no place to explain why those duties require a degree to be performed. Sometimes this will be obvious. Sometimes it won't be.

Moreover the beneficiary must actually have the degree that is required. Only the degree major and level (Bachelor/etc) is provided on the form. Sometimes this will be enough. Sometimes a transcript will be required along with a letter explaining why the beneficiary is qualified to do the job.

I've learned in this thread that sometimes this information can be provided without having to send in a formal letter. I hope you, for your part, have learned that an H-1B letter is a very common--if not universal--way to convey the information that is needed.

Funny that you would think I would be talking off the top of my head. Thanks.

Well, it was quite surprising to see that neither you nor TheRealCanadian were familiar with the H-1B letter. Perhaps I was mistaken in thinking that its use was universal, but it is definitely a common tool for attorneys to use in this petitions. It definitely isn't some rare obscure area of immigration law.

 

[nelsona]

Perhaps I was mistaken in thinking that its use was universal, but it is definitely a common tool for attorneys to use in this petitions. It definitely isn't some rare obscure area of immigration law.

You were mistaken, and, as I said, it is NOT part of the law, it is an artifice made by your lawyer. In fact, if you read the I-129 instructions, in all the times it mentions a letter, it never applies to an H1-B petition, except to explain in-country renewal. "provide evidence" is the appropriate term, which is done by providing evidence, in the form of documentation, not wordy letter of explanation.

But, your firm used the artifice of a letter. Good for them, good for you. But no such thing as an H1 letter. Sorry,.

 

[CalGreenCard]

You were mistaken, and, as I said, it is NOT part of the law, it is an artifice made by your lawyer.

I'm trying to be respectful here but--when it comes to the law, my lawyer's opinion comes first--your opinion comes second. You have a very good layman's understanding of immigration issues as does TheRealCanadian. On issues on which a lawyer has not weighed in, I'll certainly consider your opinion and that of the TheRealCanadian as carrying greater weight than my own. But when a lawyer HAS chimed in--with all due respect I think you need to take a back seat. If you disagree you are free to start your own website as opposed to posting on a lawyer's website.

"provide evidence" is the appropriate term, which is done by providing evidence, in the form of documentation, not wordy letter of explanation.

No one is saying that the letter needs to be wordy. The purpose of the letter is to explain the evidence that has been provided. The more succinctly this is done, the better. But failing to do this entirely is NOT the right approach.

 

[nelsona]

Lawyers chime in to tell Cdns that they need to go to consulate to activtae their h1. So don't be mesmerized by the chimes. They are often nothing more than tinny noisemakers.

As we have said, whether or not a lawyer CHOSE to include a letter, or send a 200 page annual report, does NOT make it law. Nor does you calling it an "H1 letter" make it so.

 

[aatish231]

calgirl my company's lawyer told my company that they SHOULD NOT get a three year TN letter for their employees. I quote their is a 90% chance that Tn's will be rejected if you give them a 3 year letter, 90% chances of approval if they get 1 year letter.

I don't know where they pulled those stats from, regardless i took a 3 year letter and got approved my firm decided to use the same letter again and again for 3 year tn all approved. They dumped the law firm
I guess the lawyer wanted to retain fee's for all employee's on a yearly basis. Why charge once every three years when you can charge once every year.

 

[nelsona]

You mean it is possible for a lawyer to "chime in" their opinion, and it be completely wrong?!?!
Impossible! Right, Cal? (or is it calgirl)?

 

[CalGreenCard]

Lawyers chime in to tell Cdns that they need to go to consulate to activtae their h1. So don't be mesmerized by the chimes. They are often nothing more than tinny noisemakers.

It is true that each lawyer has their area of specialization and sometimes they make mistakes when going outside their area of specialization. If an attorney doesn't specialize in Canadian-US immigration issues, they may not be familiar with the nuances of Canadian-specific procedures.

I'm talking here, though, about lawyers whose bread and butter is H-1B petitions. These lawyers know their stuff when it comes to H-1B. And this is NOT a Canadian-specific issue. These lawyers put H-1B letters in H-1B petitions for ALL petitions--not just for Canadians.