Surge of Older PD’s

asdqwe2k2 said:
And these desperate people will blame their employer, lawyer if their I-140 is not approved, but it is infact they themselves that need to be blamed for not doing their own research about the companies and USCIS laws

Yes each one should do a good research before joining a desi firm --- at least those firms which ask you to be hefty sum for pre-approved labor. But again these guys do not give the 140 application number to the employee .. don't you think there only intention is to harrass the employees ... don't U think these companies need to be brought offline -- in order to protect future?
 
AlienBhai said:
Public Law 106-313
American Competitiveness in the Twenty-first Century Act of 2000
10-17-2000 Signed by President William Clinton

President Clinton is the man :D

He is also the one to give amnesty to illegal immigrants (ending April 2001), at the expense of legal immigrants. Because of this 10 of 1000's of geniune immigrants are suffering still. One major reason EB3 has retrogresses so much, it is because of him.
 
GreenCardVirus said:
AC21 is a law, not a memo. You are protected by LAW if you change jobs after 180 days of 485.


did I get that wrong..

or AC 21 might be law but that I-140 portability provision is a memo..
Well I got my info from ---www.visalaw.com/05may4/2may405.html


Well in any case -- law or memo at least for now we are protected.

Thanks
 
Nadi said:
Yes each one should do a good research before joining a desi firm --- at least those firms which ask you to be hefty sum for pre-approved labor. But again these guys do not give the 140 application number to the employee .. don't you think there only intention is to harrass the employees ... don't U think these companies need to be brought offline -- in order to protect future?

I completely agree with you that when any employer harasses for filing green card, or just harrasas by not paying salary on time, etc, and should be sued and made to close their shop... But, I am not still sure ACE is one of them, just because 35 substition labors I-140's were rejected...

All the people who joined ACE were desperate and I am sure agreed to some agreement, like work for the full duration of green card, or lower billing, etc.. This is the bargain, they are making for using substitution labor and staying a little longer in USA and earning, or else they would have gone back to their country by now.. However, I can say that was a very risky choice, because apart from "abillity to pay", there are lots of other things that should be matched with the labor they are substituting, like education, experience, and anything can go wrong, they could have gotten RFE on any of those other matters.

I am not sure why therer is a misconception that ACE did not co-operate or why you think ACE did not give I-140 application numbers, etc. I know that ACE does not have its own lawyer and a lawyer can be choosen by the employees themselves and ACE pays for filing green card. I read someone used "Rajeev S Khanna" as lawyer for ACE.. I see that most of them that are actually affected by this rejections is by some lawyer named "Mike Khosla", and he is definetly one of the person's in this case is to be blamed for. He should have done proper paper work himself and filed in proper interest of the client(here emploee, if he is paying for the filing costs), by requesting relavent documents from employer.

I guess most of the people whose I-140's were denied, are only looking to blame someone else, but, it is infact a combination of lots of things, USCIS, substitution labors, abillity to pay, lawyers, employers, and LAST BUT NOT LEAST, THE PERSON WHO APPLIED USING THAT SUBSTITUTION LABOR.

I think united nations worked on this case for "ability to pay" and could shed some light on who is to be blamed for this mistake, did the employer and lawyer willfully filed these substitution labers knowing that their I-140 would by rejected ? If these many cases were rejected, will the ACE not loose the revenue it was generating ? ( again, unlike cybersoftec, I am sure ACE may have not requested hefty sum for substitution labors.. May be I am wrong)
 
eBhola said:
did I get that wrong..

or AC 21 might be law but that I-140 portability provision is a memo..
Well I got my info from ---www.visalaw.com/05may4/2may405.html

Well in any case -- law or memo at least for now we are protected.

Thanks

Memos in USCIS provide guidelines. Under no circumstance can a memo break law. Some times implementation can be tricky leaving some loopholes, but the law must be followed.

One leaving job using AC21, employer revoking 140, labor reused ... everything is legal. Unfortunately some loopholes got created by law itself.
 
This one is confusing

eBhola said:
did I get that wrong..

or AC 21 might be law but that I-140 portability provision is a memo..
Well I got my info from ---www.visalaw.com/05may4/2may405.html


Well in any case -- law or memo at least for now we are protected.

Thanks
The section 204 of INA is amended with public law AC21 (106-313). It is clearly updated in USCIS website. Therefore it is a law. However, the recent AC21 guidline memo is confusing, due to the following statements by Mr Yates.
"This interim guidance will only be in effect until regulations that are currently in progress are published as a final rule. The proposed rule may take a more restrictive position than this memorandum. Please note that the Adjudicator’s Field Manual (AFM) will not be updated at this time."
Is AC21 is not a final rule yet?
 
There was no change in this November bulletin...

Does that reflect (For example India ) that there are atleast 10,000 EB - PD around 1998 -1999, that got created from
1> Backlog center
2> Pre_Appproved Labor refiling.

-- there might not be any movement till good half of this fiscal year ...
and due to more and more Preapproved Labor refiling this year ... the next year will be all stuck in early 99 era.


man this will be like taking 5 steps forward and then going back 4 steps ... every year ...

hmm

I hope that does not become 5 step forward and 6 steps backward every year ....

Policies regarding PD for PreApporved labor should be addressed or this is going to be an endless churn.


Whats Ur take on this ...
 
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I will agree with you on most of the stuff, but will you not agree that all the denials from this company were because of substitution labors and this company not having ability to pay for during the years from the date of priority date of those labors ? If USCIS is so rigid on this, what can employer and lawyer or for that matter a consultant who filed using substitution labor do ? I mean these guys are going back and blaming company and lawyer because they cannot blame USCIS !!!!

I will never agree with you on the point that company and lawyer set up an "endless cycle" of using approved labors and revoking them if one leaves and using them again for someone else, because, then the reason for those I-140 denials would be different and not for ability to pay or job is temporary.. But, I will agree that they may have revoked I-140 and used for someone else when one leaves the company, but not never to reuse the same labor again and again, like in case of cybersoftec..

Yes, consultants should have been aware of the risk. If lawyer is using labors to file for person without showing it to them and cases are getting denied due to education mismatch, etc., whose fault would that be?

Don't be harsh on the consultants. Company and lawyer weren't willing to do necessary actions to get people approvals. It is against all moral rules that they continue to re-cycle the same labors when they already know cases have been denied.

You definetly bring up a valid point here.. If the company and lawyer is unwilling to share the labor, whose fault would that be ?? If that is the case, then, why would anyone file a labor substitution case without knowing the risks involved, not having enough info about the labor or company and blame lawyer and employer or file a suit against the, instead of getting aware of themselves the USCIS is strict in these substitution cases. Eventhough lawyer and employer is unwilling to share information about the labor or company financials, wouldn't it be wise to say here that consultants knowingly got into this mess ?

Also, according to one of the postings here in this forum, ACE does not have its own lawyer, and there are "n" number of lawyers who deal with ACE, becuase the employee of ACE has the right to choose a lawyer.. If a lawyer is unwilling to share the information because of the confidentiality agreement he has with the employer, then how can he share the info with the client ? To give you an example, any genuine lawyer, even "Rajeev S Khanna" will not share labor and I-140 approvals with the client even if the client is paying for the complete green card processing, isn't this a fact ? They will say they are property of employer and employer has to give authorization, so will the lawyer here to be blamed here ?? IF YOU DISPROVE OTHERWISE, I WILL REST MY CASE.
 
unitednations said:
Don't be harsh on the consultants. Company and lawyer weren't willing to do necessary actions to get people approvals. It is against all moral rules that they continue to re-cycle the same labors when they already know cases have been denied.

UnitedNation -- U drive home a very important point. The attoneys/employer have become something like a dream merchants -- giving a false hope to the prospective immigrants. Not only they charge hefty money but also drive the prospective immigrants into cul-de-sac. Sometimes legal help is the least thing one gets from these attorneys -- they are not transparent -- and most of the guys are in dark before the RFE starts kicking in... Atleast for me I learnt 99% from forum then from my attorney.

But again guys should know -- a very few people will ever abandon there approved labor or the gc process in general. So risk analysis is must and evey one in an pre-approved line should consider some sort of Alternatives..

Easier said than done as the saying goes.
 
asdqwe2k2 said:
If USCIS is so rigid on this, what can employer and lawyer or for that matter a consultant who filed using substitution labor do ? I mean these guys are going back and blaming company and lawyer because they cannot blame USCIS !!!!

Hey man -- blame USCIS for what? What are Lawyers for... don't they have to play by the Laws and Regulations that are laid out by USCIS... Can't they read the labor and the employees qualification and the company records and come to a conclusive advice for the prospective immigrant.
Why can't the employers be more transparent -- why do they push the consultants into cul-de-sac .... by recycling that worthless labor. Such things are not only immoral -- but illegal too.
 
unitednations said:
First DOL cracked down on the big companies because of layoffs and made it difficult to get labors approved. This caused the desi consulting companies to flourish by offering greencards and substitute labors. Now, USCIS doesn't like the fact that 90 to 99% of the employees are on h-1b's or going for greencards for the company (you think they can prove that the jobs were qualifed to american workers when 99% of their employees are foreign). Also, USCIS has figured out that the consultants are self employed contractors who are using these companies to keep themselves legal and going for greencard. They know all of this. The hammer they have is ability to pay.

Now that DOL cracked down on the big companies in sponsoring greencards, USCIS is using their powers and discretionary powers to go after the desi consulting employer because the concept of employment base greencard is not in the spirit of what these employers are doing.

Irony is that a company can an approved labor to someone else after the original employee is laid off.
 
Wake up call ..

Unitednation, asdqwe2k2, Nadi, ebhola, greencardvirus.

It is a nice discussion. You clearly explained the loop holes in the immigration system and explaining how a fraudulent employer can re-cycle the LC, and create a green card black-market in the name of labor substitution. Almost, all the consulting employers are massive green card petitioners. They are now gifted with retrogression. One can easily earn huge money through this loophole. Consider all consulting company having more than 100 LC per company, with PDs in 2001, if they started recycling those, the cutoff date will never move.

The other genuine guys working for a “real U.S employers”, having own LC, have to wait for ever. Those have enough money to buy a LC with old PDs will enter the U.S in the back door. This is ridicules. Whatever discussions in this thread/forum is not going to help the genuine people waiting in the queue, unless we inform this scam to USCIS.

In my opinion almost all labor substitution are scam. The labor substitution has to be stopped completely. If not, at least, the substitute should get I-140 filing date as the PD, even if I-140 was never filed for the original beneficiary. Consider the massive LC approval, which is going to come from BEC (300,000 is pending now). Most of the guys with very old PD might have already left the sponsored employers. If all these LCs come to black market sale, the visa cutoff dates will still go backwards. DOS is already predicted the effect of the 300,000 LC clearance from BEC.

Why can’t we come forward and write a detailed letter to USCIS about this issue to help us and others. I think USCIS will listen, if we write a detailed letter. I read somewhere in this forum, one guy left the job after the assurance his GC sponsoring employer (not to revoke I-140). At the time he left his both I-485 and I-140 was pending more than six months. His employer revoked the pending (NOT APPROVED) I-140. Then, USCIS served a letter to indent to deny his 485. He wrote a detailed letter to USCIS about the employer assurance. Immediately next day there was a new AC21 memo was released with clear instruction that,( for AC21 rule) I-140 must not been necessarily approved before one ports the job. Prior to that memo, the guideline was, I-140 must have been approved in order to port the job.

Therefore, I feel if we write a letter about the possibilities of surge of LC with older PD, due to this loophole, it will help others and stops this scam.
 
Sub-Labor

can_card said:
Consider all consulting company having more than 100 LC per company, with PDs in 2001, if they started recycling those, the cutoff date will never move.


Can_Card,

They have already started to recycle the labor since a long long time.. And thats the principal reason why the dates went so backwards... Every one is hoping around to get best PD around ... paying unimaginable $$$ ... Some employers are making much more from there employee than the clients.
I guess USCIS does know about all this .... but is allowing this to grow to astronomical proportions. The damage is already done to guys who are waiting in the queue ... with there own labor... USCIS needs to change the PD for the substitution guys to the receipt date of 140 ... some say it might complicate the ability to pay issue and all ...

Looks like a huge mess.
:confused:


This I got from MurthyDotCom,
Substitution, essentially, is the replacement of the named beneficiary in a labor certification (LC) with another, equally qualified individual. We at The Law Office of Sheela Murthy wish to warn our readers to be careful to avoid involvement with improper LC substitution cases. Although there are certainly genuine substitution cases; there are also many that may be fraudulent. The DOL and USCIS are keenly aware of the fraudulent cases and are investigating and taking action when such fraud is detected.

The process of obtaining a labor certification from the DOL was traditionally a slow process, as many of our readers are personally aware. Depending upon location, prior to the start of PERM in March 2005, labor certification processing could take years. With LC substitution, an individual gets to skip that entire lengthy process, use an already approved labor certification, and move forward with filing to obtain the "green card" by directly filing the I-140 petition. It is an enormous benefit to the substituted individual. It also saves the employer the effort of redoing the labor certification and avoids all of the associated expenses. The individual additionally gains certain benefits, including H1B extension eligibility, based upon the filing date of the initial labor certification.

Illegal Sale of LC Substitutions

The problem is that, because the labor certifications are so sought after by the foreign national, some employers and unscrupulous individuals apparently have created a market to sell these labor certifications to the highest bidder. The scale of this fraud has only recently come to light.

The increasing interest in these previously-approved LCs appears to be tied, in part, to AC21 provisions. The value of the substituted labor increased as a result of specific AC21 provisions that allow for approval of a green card case through an employer other than the labor certification petitioner. Thus, some people seek out substitution cases through employers for whom they have never worked. They then try to use AC21 to obtain green card approval. Another incentive for abuse is the benefit under AC21 is that the priority date on the labor certification can be used as the basis for an H1B extension beyond the six year limitation. This often provides relief for an individual who is coming to the end of the six years on H1B, but who does not have a pending green card case. With so much at stake, the incentives for fraud of the labor certifications are high.

What Makes a Labor Substitution Fraudulent?

This ability to profit from having the valuable certification provided incentives for filing labor certifications that were not bona fide from the beginning. That is, there may not have been a genuine job offer or a genuine beneficiary of the initial case. Additionally, even if the case was good at the start, the sale of the labor certification means that there may not be a genuine job offer underlying the substitution case. That is, the company may just have sold the labor certification, but may not really intend to hire the individual on a full-time, permanent basis, as required by law, upon the approval of the permanent resident status based on that approved LC. Maybe the individuals are just using the labor certification to extend their H1B statuses; maybe the intent is, as discussed above, just to buy time or to try to use AC21 portability to get a green card case approved through a different employer without working for the substitution company. This is considered improper and fraudulent.

Fraud can have many consequences, including criminal charges. From an immigration perspective, a case that is based upon a fraudulent labor certification can be terminated or revoked. That is, if an employer files an I-140 petition based upon a fraudulent labor certification, the I-140 can be revoked based upon the fraud. So, one could spend a great deal of money for the labor certification only to find that s/he ends up without a green card and no means to recover all the money spent. Of course, one could also become the target of fraud investigation. The government is aware of the improper use of LCs and is taking action.

There are many ways a company could come to the attention of the DOL or USCIS. Cases that are filed reveal company size and financials. The USCIS can track the number of filings made by an employer. If it is disproportionate to the size of the company, i.e. many green card cases filed by an employer with relatively few employees, this may be an indicator that something is wrong. They may investigate employers with repeated substitution cases. They may investigate lawyers and other individuals whose names are associated with these repeated cases, and make connections in that manner. The government is experienced with investigations of fraud and has the resources to conduct those investigations which they feel are important.

How to Avoid an Association with Fraudulent Substitution

When considering whether to have an LC Substitution case filed by a particular employer, the individual should consider the general reputation of the employer. If they are in the business of selling labor certifications to anyone wishing to buy them, avoid that employer. Labor certifications are supposed to represent a job offer. Companies are supposed to make offers to those they select for employment, not someone merely willing to pay a fee for the process. A legitimate employer that happens to have some labor certifications that were approved for prior employees, using substitution can be a valuable shortcut to the green card.

It is always best to know your employer's reputation and to choose carefully. Even if every aspect of one's case is legitimate, problems can arise if the employer has been engaged in fraud. The USCIS can challenge I-140 filings if the company has filed more cases than it can support. Thus, even if one's case is genuine, it can encounter problems if the employer has filed others that may not be bona fide. Employers must show that they can pay the prevailing wage for the job offered. The USCIS sometimes asks for proof pertaining to all pending cases, not just a single case. If the company has offered more jobs than there are funds to support, all of the cases could run into problems.

Conclusion

Anyone who may have gotten involved with the practice of fraudulent substitution, innocently or otherwise, may need to review his or her immigration situation. If the labor substitution case is questionable, it may be time to, at the very least, consider working with a reputable and experienced immigration lawyer who is able to navigate the system, offering advice and options within the legal framework.
 
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eBhola said:
Can_Card,

They have already started to recycle the labor since a long long time.. And thats the principal reason why the dates went so backwards... Every one is hoping around to get best PD around ... paying unimaginable $$$ ... Some employers are making much more from there employee than the clients.
I guess USCIS does know about all this .... but is allowing this to grow to astronomical proportions. The damage is already done to guys who are waiting in the queue ... with there own labor... USCIS needs to change the PD for the substitution guys to the receipt date of 140 ... some say it might complicate the ability to pay issue and all ...

Looks like a huge mess.
:confused:

What is the solution?
 
eBhola said:
Can_Card,

They have already started to recycle the labor since a long long time.. And thats the principal reason why the dates went so backwards... Every one is hoping around to get best PD around ... paying unimaginable $$$ ... Some employers are making much more from there employee than the clients.
I guess USCIS does know about all this .... but is allowing this to grow to astronomical proportions. The damage is already done to guys who are waiting in the queue ... with there own labor... USCIS needs to change the PD for the substitution guys to the receipt date of 140 ... some say it might complicate the ability to pay issue and all ...

Looks like a huge mess.
:confused:

This I got from MurthyDotCom,

Murthy is PRO - Labor Substitution. I guess, so are all other lawyers.
 
Solution.

can_card said:
What is the solution?

Solution : I guess USCIS might be working on that ... but unless there is a policy change .. its unlikely there might be any solution .. meanwhile for us we have two choices .. one is wait for the turn may be a couple of years for EB3's from India and china... and the second one is shop around for earlier PD's which will come out of BEC (300,000 LC are waiting to be cleared).

Both are not encouranging but I guess waiting would make sence if we get EAD and AP approved for more than one year. Right now -- even though they approve EAD for a year .. but one needs to apply 3 months in advance to be on safe side ... and if they approve it in 1 month ... opps Ur EAD was effective for just 10 months .. spending $$$ on pre-Approved labor is risky and that change of job etc ... hmmm simply not worth it.
 
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