petition against Lou Dobbs of CNN

Originally posted by d1203
AC21 , also allows 485 filers to switch employers after 180 days . Doesnt this errode the so called "pool of bonded labor" ? Did AC21 not reform the 485 system (albeit not as much as we would have liked it to, but still a big difference) ? How does big business like IBM,Sun, etc benefit by supporting AC21, if they know that 485 filers would have the liberty to quit and join elsewhere after 180 days ?

Please give credit where it is due. ISN started the AC21 campaign .I'm sure there must have people with defeatist attitudes throwing up "It wont work buddy, but all the best" arguments . At least there were some visionaries who still went ahead and persisted (no thanks to the naysayers) , the benefits of which we are expriencing.

Like I said, sit on the fence. Have a cigar, watch the fun. Just do not discourage people who wish to make a difference or belittle past accomplishments

Since you seem to be more intent on baiting me than analyzing and discussing the issue, maybe you can explain to us why Mr. Dobbs and CNN would abandon their parochial line, obviously calculated to be popular with disgruntled US workers, in favor of a few employment-based immigrants?

I am listening..
 
1 cent..

I agree with Sankrit. However, this does not mean that we should not bring up the issues that our community "to be immigrants" might have. So, I believe it's important for the community to stand up to their points. And at the very least community will learn how to get organized in a better way.

But I also think that this was targeted towards the middle class Americans who have lost jobs recently. So, CNN must have already thought about the some backlash from the immigration society. This would be exactly what they might have expected. And in their mind, by doing this, they become the honest and true example of journalism. This is how the media is in this great country. They live in the moment.

Trying to save american jobs by putting restrictions on immigration or outsourcing to other country WILL only harm the US companies. This country has always build up rhetoric for opening the other countries economies for American companies. But since the bubble broke they are thinking other countries have them by the balls.

Cheers!
Currys
 
Oh Yes curryus !!

EURO marked the highest exchange rate with US$..


Mr. Dobbs and CNN are going to see the same with IRS pretty soon.



;)
 
Originally posted by d1203
AC21 , also allows 485 filers to switch employers after 180 days . Doesnt this errode the so called "pool of bonded labor" ? Did AC21 not reform the 485 system (albeit not as much as we would have liked it to, but still a big difference) ?

How does big business like IBM,Sun, etc benefit by supporting AC21, if they know that 485 filers would have the liberty to quit and join elsewhere after 180 days ?

I guess AC-21 did reform the system; it reformed the system so well that the INS still has not formulated and announced the rules for its implementation.

In case it missed your attention, AC-21 requires that the target job has to be similar to the one you will be leaving; not a step up as one might imagine should be the case after being in the position for a few years. If you cannot take a job that carries more responsibility, how is the pool of bonded labor shrinking? Somebody who is previously working as programmer analyst for EDS is now the programmer analyst for Accenture. For the employee, there is clearly no future beyond the available pool of programmer analysts in the economy.

Originally posted by d1203
Please give credit where it is due. ISN started the AC21 campaign .I'm sure there must have people with defeatist attitudes throwing up "It wont work buddy, but all the best" arguments . At least there were some visionaries who still went ahead and persisted (no thanks to the naysayers) , the benefits of which we are expriencing.

Like I said, sit on the fence. Have a cigar, watch the fun. Just do not discourage people who wish to make a difference or belittle past accomplishments

Would you be so kind as to define what success would be for this petition, and how that might be reasonably achieved? I guess it is easy to whip up peoples passions and goad them into action. In my day, I have known a lot of rabblerousers that would think nothing of inciting a senseless act of defiance from the relative safety of their wrought -iron balconies knowing full well the futility of such an act and more importantly, its consequences to the people on the frontline.

Every objective needs a well formulated strategy based on an understanding of the adversary, what the relative strengths and weaknesses are of the various parties involved and the availability of resources.

CNN is part of the Time Warner media empire. If it says anything at all about the outfit, the liberal-minded Mr. Turner has fallen apart with the powers that be and is in the process of divesting his stake in the company. Programming on giant media corporations such as these does not fall in place by accident. It is compiled by hordes of highly-paid MBAs that have researched the demographics of their audience threadbare. Often times they know more about their audiences' behavior as a consumer than the individuals concerned. They are not in the business of news or entertainment, but their business is to slice and dice their viewers into various attractive packages and offer them as a product to their customers, i.e., their advertisers.

CNN has lost the most watched news channel title to Fox over the past couple of years because of their so-called liberal slant and they are under orders to claw back the lost ground. Mr Dobbs was brought back by CNN as part of this strategy. He is not paid to wax eloquent ex-tempore on his show. What he says on air is what he is asked to say by his producer and program director who have an army of researchers and focus groups at their disposal to figure out what is likely to go down well with the viewer demographic most sought after by the channel. So dont, for a moment, think that you can get their sympathies by writing a petition. If at all possible, you would have to purchase their allegiance by shelling out what the market bears. Much as we like to believe that they are a part of the fourth estate with a significant public interest role to play in a democratic system, they see themselves first and foremost as for-profit corporations (and Mr. Powell fully concurs with them) that are under enormous pressure to perform for their shareholders, especially after the fiasco with the AOL purchase.

Nobody says that you cannot fight a giant and win. However, if you do identify this media giant as your adversary and choose to fight it in their own backyard, you better thoroughly analyze the wicket you are playing on and the resources you can solidly count on. Lastly, you would still want to bide your time and wait for a moment of weakness to initiate your actions. It is good to try and try again till you succeed, but it is also important for your own welfare to not be pig-headed about it.

So, quit baiting me and try to focus on contributing to the initiative if you have anything useful. If you do not, find another thread that interests you.
 
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Originally posted by Sankrityayan
I guess AC-21 did reform the system; it reformed the system so well that the INS still has not formulated and announced the rules for its implementation.


http://www.isn.org/news/20010620174420.html
http://www.murthy.com/UDportme.html

Originally posted by Sankrityayan

In case it missed your attention, AC-21 requires that the target job has to be similar to the one you will be leaving; not a step up as one might imagine should be the case after being in the position for a few years. If you cannot take a job that carries more responsibility, how is the pool of bonded labor shrinking? Somebody who is previously working as programmer analyst for EDS is now the programmer analyst for Accenture. For the employee, there is clearly no future beyond the available pool of programmer analysts in the economy.

The same or similar job is a fail safe mechanism to ensure that a software engineer does not take up a job in Walmart and get his GC approved because that would make a mockery of the system. The key word here is "similar" which allows a software engineer sufficient leeway to take a more responsible job and still successfully agrue his case shoud BCIS raise any objections.

Here's a real life example of a person who switched jobs using AC21, got a new job with more responsibility and still got his 485 approved. His original job? "Programmer/Analyst". His new job? "Office Automation Manager". I had subscribed to a AC21 newsgroup from Yahoo! I maintain, changes have been made to the system that have effected people's lives in a positive manner.

http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=572064#post572064

Even if the above was not true, would you rather a person lose his GC, even if he got a new job that fits the narrow description of "same or similar job" ? Because that was the pre-AC21 scenario. AC21 has made a difference to those who got laid off and still managed to get new jobs and have their GCs approved.


Originally posted by Sankrityayan


Would you be so kind as to define what success would be for this petition, and how that might be reasonably achieved? I guess it is easy to whip up peoples passions and goad them into action.

Originally posted by rcetc

Do petitions agains CNN work? As Indians of course we are cynical....
Sanskrit here is a petition hosted by the same site against CNN, intiated by Arab-Americans which has worked (Arab-Americans are I assume just as important to CNN as Indian-Americans)

http://www.petitiononline.com/CNN1214/petition_response.html

Here are petition by Indian-Americans against CNN that has worked
http://www.indiacause.com/IC12_CNN_IndiaMap.htm


I think rcetc has already posted his success criteria in the above post. I did not find the need to reiterate it.


Its the effort that has to be applauded and not the end result. 90% of people's effort may end up in failure. The fear of failure doesnt mean we do not try nor does it give us the right to snicker in the sidelines or bring people down. Failure teaches and refines leadership leading ultimately to success.

I doubt if I have the ability to whip up people's passions nor can I goad them into action. That allegation insults the intelligence of people in this forum.I have not asked anyone to sign the petition. All I have asked is to , please, not discourage people from trying to reform the system .It does not matter how small or insignificant their efforts may be. Those efforts are still admirable and should be encouraged

Originally posted by Sankrityayan

It is good to try and try again till you succeed, but it is also important for your own welfare to not be pig-headed about it.

I, for one, admire the initiative and tenacity of the Arab-American community that elicited a positive response from CNN. Was there a Arab-American who would have called his fellow bethren pig-headed for taking on the Time Warner Media Empire and said that the petition would not work? I'm sure there was.
 
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Originally posted by d1203
....I doubt if I have the ability to whip up people's passions nor can I goad them into action. That allegation insults the intelligence of people in this forum.I have not asked anyone to sign the petition. All I have asked is to , please, not discourage people from trying to reform the system .It does not matter how small or insignificant their efforts may be. Those efforts are still admirable and should be encouraged

I, for one, admire the initiative and tenacity of the Arab-American community that elicited a positive response from CNN. Was there a Arab-American who would have called his fellow bethren pig-headed for taking on the Time Warner Media Empire and said that the petition would not work? I'm sure there was.

If you believe that what you or I write here is immaterial to people's actions, then why are you so intent on picking on me? I suppose you believe people will do what they want/need to do; if so, why would you be so bothered when someone offers a viewpoint that seeks to examine the merits of the initiative that is being proposed?

This is a public board and sometimes it can become a springboard for advocacy and activism. When someone posts something here, it is automatically open to suggestion, criticism, and is a subject of debate. What you seem to be suggesting is that people who do not agree with the idea should not participate in the discussion! How healthy is that? If you believe that the idea is a good one, try and educate us on its merits by presenting facts and analysis, but please refrain from attempts to silence dissenters.
 
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Originally posted by d1203
.... I, for one, admire the initiative and tenacity of the Arab-American community that elicited a positive response from CNN. Was there a Arab-American who would have called his fellow bethren pig-headed for taking on the Time Warner Media Empire and said that the petition would not work? I'm sure there was.

It is rather frivolous to compare the plight of the Arab-American community (and practitioners of Islam in general) and the rascist attacks it has endured since 9-11, shamefully so even in the mass media, and the comments of Lou Dobbs, which, if you strip away the rhetoric, are arguably valid.:(

It may comfort you to know that there are petition drives being organized to drop Gen. Boykin from the Military, and I fully support those!
 
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Originally posted by d1203
.... The same or similar job is a fail safe mechanism to ensure that a software engineer does not take up a job in Walmart and get his GC approved because that would make a mockery of the system. The key word here is "similar" which allows a software engineer sufficient leeway to take a more responsible job and still successfully agrue his case shoud BCIS raise any objections.

By the same token, I suppose you believe that when a green card holder loses his/her job and takes up temporary employment at the local garden store is making a mockery of the system.

I do not agree with such a characterization because AC-21 says that the AOS process should take no more than 6 months, which in a manner defines the length of period the proferred job offer should be valid, and during which INS can ask for such proof. Beyond this, the responsibility for the delay shifts to the INS bureaucracy and the applicant should not be penalized for INS's inadequacies. If this is true, what happens after six months should in no way be considered a mockery of the system, because the six month burden of proof has been met. Yet, INS has not promulgated the AC-21 related rules consistent with this principle. Actually they have not promulgated any AC-21 related rules other than issuing non-binding clarifications via memos to attorneys. This is probably one of the only statutes passed by congress where an administrative agency has failed to promulgate and issue rules and procedures to implement the statute. Contrast this with the other provisions of AC-21 like the H1-B quota increases (and the subsequent decreases) and changes to the fee schedules (meant to fund worker training) that have been smoothly implemented.

Originally posted by d1203
Here's a real life example of a person who switched jobs using AC21, got a new job with more responsibility and still got his 485 approved. His original job? "Programmer/Analyst". His new job? "Office Automation Manager". I had subscribed to a AC21 newsgroup from Yahoo! I maintain, changes have been made to the system that have effected people's lives in a positive manner.

http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=572064#post572064

Even if the above was not true, would you rather a person lose his GC, even if he got a new job that fits the narrow description of "same or similar job" ? Because that was the pre-AC21 scenario. AC21 has made a difference to those who got laid off and still managed to get new jobs and have their GCs approved.
....

The example you cited is truly inspiring! However, coming back to the point, you are altering the premise of my earlier post. It was not my central assertion that AC-21 did not have any beneficial aspects. My point was that business interests that lobbied hard and heavy for the bill disapproved of any serious changes to the system that would diminish the availability of the pool of bonded labor, and largely succeeded in such attempts. While AC-21 made ham-handed attempts to shift the balance ever so slightly in favor of the multitudes that were at the mercy of the INS (maybe because of ISN, and maybe not), the 'similar job' requirement and the agency's intransigence in promulgating transparent rules have ensured that the applicant pool did not erode, and on the contrary multiplied as a result of the increase in H1-B quotas.
 
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The Basic Question

All,

The basic point is being lost in the extremely verbose output and large number of replies that are being generated by some members ... the basic question is whether such a petition drive helps us or not?

Lou's arguments might be valid from an American's perspective (a point well defended by Sanskrit) but the fact of life is that we have to look out for our own interest as an immigrant ... which is where the petition might help. We have already seen a bazillion cases where news media had to retract or publish an apology or at least be more careful about impartial reporting because of petition drives. Sometimes the reasons have not even been so strong as in the Lou's case who is obviously pandering to disaffected people and race baiting at a subtle level (which indirectly affects every one of us).

If we get nothing else, at least the media is a little more carefull next time around when reporting on these issues.

Finally, let us not get personal ... and this applies to all of us. Let us keep the debate at a congenial level.
 
I would say just don't watch CNN.

There are other networks and anchors who hate foreign (invaders, that is what they think, I guess). Similar sentiments on jobs getting exported. Fox News (O'Rielly) is one of them. This petition is going to do nothing. We should use our effort to reduce backlog if that is at all possible.
 
Yes, I do agree with Ghee..at the moment I-485 is more important than running after Lou and dozens of others…if one listens to any local radio, except for NPR, many times the anchor makes mockery of Asians…the only remedy is not to listen.Like Gandhiji said about these craps…do not see..do not listen and do not speak. Period.
 
Yes, I485 backlog reductions are more critical, but how long does it take to just sign a petition which is out there already ? and how long would it take to send the link to a bunch of friends ?

Who knows, it may not get noticed or maybe it might. But at least we are voicing an opinion about sth which offends us.
 
Thanks jaykarandikar & wxyzabc2003. I couldn't have put it better. :)

BTW, someone in this thread predicted this petition wouldn't receive more than "300 to 400 signatures". It has already crossed 500 and racing towards 600 after just 3 days of being on-line and without (as yet) getting support of any Indian-American organizations. You can take a look at the comments left by various people in the petition to see how much anger there is among Indians.

Yep, the 485 is of course of immediate importance to me too. But this just might help us out in the long run. I repeat "might". It is just an attempt. B.T.W "do not listen" might be an option, but it surely shouldn't be your first option.
 
Re: The Basic Question

Originally posted by wxyzabc2003
All,

The basic point is being lost in the extremely verbose output and large number of replies that are being generated by some members ... the basic question is whether such a petition drive helps us or not? ....

If we get nothing else, at least the media is a little more carefull next time around when reporting on these issues.

Finally, let us not get personal ... and this applies to all of us. Let us keep the debate at a congenial level.

There is nothing that incenses news people more than allegations that their reports are not well-founded from a factual perspective. So, imagine this scenario:

All the comments about how Mr. Dobbs has not done his homework and how H1-B workers are legal and are paid at least equally with locals, leads their research team (if they have not already gotten to this) to dig up some dirt, and everybody here should have no illusions about it, there is a lot of dirt to be dug up, and then present a simple news item on their show covering the petition and the petitioners' claims, and then present evidence that would knock the ground from underneth those claims. Check-mate; we would have completely trashed our credibility in the eyes of the viewing public.

It does not take much to discover that there are thousands of H1-bs on the 'bench', many times not getting paid at all and at other times being paid a minimal subsistence till they are placed. There are many examples on these forums which point to people working illegally in ethnic grocery stores etc. without paying taxes, blah, blah...the list goes on. These forums are also replete with stories about how I-485 waiters try to get around the regulations when they get laid-off. Obviously, the first place any good researcher trying to dig up dirt will want to look at is the internet (chat rooms, usenet groups, public forums etc.).

You might say that it is the problem of the illegals and the legal ones are okay. This may legally be true, but by now we all know that in the eyes of the general public, there is no such differentiation. So think hard before you walk into what might turn out to be a trap.
 
Sankrit, every business run in the US has plenty of dirty secrets to be dug up. In fact most of the points made by Lou Dobbs do not have any substantial background homework done.

Nor does CNN or any news network stand to gain anything (especially financially) by being vindictive against a legal community, especially one which has strong support of Microsoftss, IBMs, Oracles etc.
 
Also, wanted to add that there is a huge difference between the way Lou Dobbs covers the outsourcing issue and the way CNBC covers the issue. ( I haven't watched O'reilly on FOX as yet)

A few weeks back there was a series run for almost a week in the aftermarket show hosted by Ron Insana and Sue Herrera.

Did anybody watch that ? It was a well researched and constructive documentary.
 
Jaykarndikar,

If you havent watched O'Reiley in Fox - its time you did that - its as good(crazy if you will) or atleast on par with Lou.

My question - do these guys have to talk about this particular issue almost every other evening ??? For one, America is such a wonderful haven for news bits to rake up their ratings with so much Jackos, ScottPetersons and Kobes around- so why keep pounding on this same issue again?



:confused:
 
India today's response

India today's response
I read India Today's response to Dobb's program in the library. If any one have access to e-copy please post all the details from India today.
Kind Regards,
Wizz
 
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