Legal vs. Illegal Immigrants

"Yeah, I get it. Some people are more equal than others...
That's not how a country like the US works. I suggest learning about the legal system of the US."

--No! You are reading more than what I write. This happens when you make up your with victimhood mentality.


"You have here. You refuse to condemn the lawbreakers who get an H1 with fake information in the same way you condemn the illegal Hispanics."

--Again and over and again!! Mr. Joe, I did not uphold one and condemn the other. Never mentioned any community name in particular.

When you blurred the line between someone beating the system as opposed one totally ignoring it, I showed the difference. I explained the intention behind showing that difference.

I see the difference between

* An H1B consultant gets paranoid about his legal status upon loosing his job overnight and looks for a viable option to stay legal by exploring online forums till he/she finds another job. There are tons of other employers who can hire this guy. Its just a matter of time. Flying back thousands of miles to his home country and to get back again need not be the only option. What do you derive from his/her disturbed situation? A desire to maintain legal status? A fear that implies that he respects american legal system? If he gets paystub, he gets money. But he also knows uncle sam takes good chunk of it. Yet, what's with the desire to get paid on the records and pay taxes by working hard? What a stupid illegal scoundrel he is!! You were advising someone here to go and tell such people to leave the country. Better yet, I think advise should be "Just stay put. Dont even worry about paystub and taxes. They will legalize you eventually!".


* Contrast this to someone who just doesnt care about the system. Period.No passport. No identity. Nothing. When time comes, he joins the protesting crowds and shouts that this is civil rights movement rejuvenated. Even argues incoherently that it is not a crime to love america and seek a better life in this country. Threatens of shortage of labor to do the dishes or trim the bushes.

I see the difference. That is not to say that h1b guy is not a lawbreaker. Nor it means that illegal h1b guy must take precedence over outright illegal alien.
But when you are going overboard by cherrypicking some cases that abuse legal system and position it to support your love for mexico(mind you, you mentioned that country name) then I am trying to open your eyes.

You cant read and comprehend what I write. I can easily imagine the damage you have done to the concept of INA 212 or whatever regulation in your mind.

Dont be so literal-headed about "after bill passes, transition into law is what follows, yada , yada". Print my conversation with you from the begining.Switch off court tv this evening. Fix some nice tequilla and try to understand what I have been saying all along.


"Which leads me to believe that you either are an H1 on bench without pay or have been in the past. I get this "shooting the messenger" stuff quite often... not that I care all that much... lawbreakers are lawbreakers..."

--Your belief is wrong. You will know that when you get out of this emotion that is clouding your judgement.You have been shooting yourself in the foot from the begining by undermining the legal process based on few cases that abuse the system. Using that as an excuse, you want to support this 'legalization' of illegals proposal. I have been trying to advice you, you may support it (I do ardently!!) but not by showing failures in the legal system. If you fall in the trench, then get out! Dont further dig into it.


"A bill is not a law. And if it will become law, and in which form, is currently completely in the air. Again, learn about the US legal system."

--Why are you telling a bill is not a law? I think you are talking to an "imaginary" me in your mind.


"And furthermore, where in the bill under consideration would INA 212 be overturned? You claimed it, so show it."

--That was sarcasm for you.

"And since you apparently don't care about legal concepts, how about this contract for the Brooklyn bridge that I have available for signing???"

--I dont care a jot for your interpretation of legal concept that is far divorced from the way it was dictated, interpretated and implemented in reality.

When I never said that a person is not illegal even if he/she breaks the law, but that is subject to investigation as opposed to someone openly declaring "What's my crime? I just love america", you are barking on me mindlessly "law states this and law states that..."

Dont watch court tv. Its getting into your head.
 
[Huh? You are the one with victimhood mentality, thinking that others getting legalized would hurt you.]

You said: "Yeah, I get it. Some people are more equal than others..."

--Sounds like whining to me!!

I expressed concern over unfairness this overload of legalization process could cause if its not dealt with seperately. There is a difference between speaking against unfairness as opposed to crying "we are not treated equals because we are so and so... and you are so and so..."

Let me cut/paste what I wrote to some other poster.

Someone said: "Also who knows if those illegal immigrants would pay income taxes after they are legalized.They didn't play by rules who know if they will later on.They might culmulate all the taxes they owe and ask for the federal gov to waive them all at once. And people like us, work our butt off to pay taxes."

I said: I dont think so. Every "legalization" scheme like this had proven to have "paid off" in the past.Benefits of legalizing 11 million illegals outweighs any presumed fears. It helps US economy.

The only concern legal immigration aspirants could express at this point is to communicate the unfairness. Legalization process for illegals must be dealt with seperately. Any resources that are already exasperated in handling the load of legal immigration process should not be allocated for this new "legalization".Not to mention the visa quota."




"When you blurred the line between someone beating the system as opposed one totally ignoring it, I showed the difference. I explained the intention behind showing that difference."

"There is exactly where you indeed "uphold one and condemn the other". In your own word, even.
"Beating the system", as you call it so euphemistically, is also illegal."

--LOL! You got sense of humor.


Quote:
I see the difference between

* An H1B consultant gets paranoid about his legal status upon loosing his job overnight and looks for a viable option to stay legal by exploring online forums till he/she finds another job. There are tons of other employers who can hire this guy. Its just a matter of time. Flying back thousands of miles to his home country and to get back again need not be the only option.

"And where did I say that?"

--Let me cut/paste what you said earlier to someone.

"So, instead of posting idle stuff here about the illegals that demonstrate, why don't you go to the H1 forum and tell the people that don't have paystubs that they should go back home?"

"What I am talking about is people deliberately faking resumes to get an H1 in the first place. What I'm talking about is people on H1 getting benched without pay and accepting that. That's illegal, and is no different than somebody sneaking over the border. The people sneaking over the border are as desperate as the H1 guys faking their resumes to get into the US. Other than that there is no land border for somebody who comes from a different continent, there is no difference. None whatsoever."

--I think you are improving now. I totally agree with that. Now pray understand, does that similarity lead you to say in a generalized statement that h1b guys here (it might shock you, there are legal h1b guys just like you profess to have been once) , waiting in line to get permanent residency for ages, have no right to express concern over illegals causing extra load to the already exhausted immigration resources?

What's with this jibberish about hypocrisy, throwing stones and all that nonsense? You want them legalized? Fine, do it.But dont hide behind few counterfiet cases and shoot the entire legal immigrant community. I said this to you multiple times already.

Your intention to show the "similarity" between the two lots CAN never be the cause to support your stance on new legalization proposal. Go say this to senators. "Guys! The system is screwed up anyways! Its not that every immigrant here is actually "legal", why not just wave the flag?". It is highly likely that they could offer to sponsor you for some serious counselling immediately.

Quote:
If he gets paystub, he gets money. But he also knows uncle sam takes good chunk of it. Yet, what's with the desire to get paid on the records and pay taxes by working hard?


Quote:
* Contrast this to someone who just doesnt care about the system. Period.No passport. No identity. Nothing.

"Somebody on H1 who fakes a resume doesn't care about the system, either. And how would you know that somebody who sneaked over the border doesn't care about the system, anyway? How would you know if these people have passports or not?"

--How do you know H1 fakes a resume?



"No, every word from your post shows that you are trying to justify a two-class system of illegals, the desirables on H1 and the untouchables who sneaked over the border. And that is just completely wrong."

--Once again the communication process is broken!!


"Even argues incoherently that it is not a crime to love america and seek a better life in this country.
"Like you just did, about the illegal H1s..."

--When did I say that? Quote me , I will explain again if my patience is not worn out.


"You cant read and comprehend what I write. I can easily imagine the damage you have done to the concept of INA 212 or whatever regulation in your mind.

You are a hopeless case. You obviously don't care about the law. INA 212 is not a "concept". It is part of the laws of this country."

--You are literal-headed bull going head-on with things at face value. When a spoken language dialogue is written in words, people go by the gist of the statement. Not by weighing in the words literally. Use the context and get the meaning.

When I said : "When the bill is passed....yada yada". It does not mean I do not know that bill must become law first and only then it can have effect. It does not mean you should read it as..."Hey! This guy thinks approval of bill is final!".

When I said: "The concept of INA 212....yada yada". It does not mean I am saying INA 212 is not a law but MERELY a concept !! Any legal dictum has an underlying concept or an idea underneath. Laws are not dictated in writing so that people like you can memorize and feel good about yourself by ranting like parrot.

Every regulation, law, policy, rule or what have you, has a concept that it intends to address. Keeping this in your mind, read my sentence again, perhaps, may be, I still doubt it, but you could probably understand the meaning I implied."Duh! I get it!! He meant to say by the core value of INA 212 or something like that...."




"You have a vivid imagination. And as somebody who neither knows the law nor understands anything about it, any "advice" from you would be dangerous..."

--This I take it. I do not know about the law. You profess you do. Who is more dangerous?



"And furthermore, where in the bill under consideration would INA 212 be overturned? You claimed it, so show it."

--That was sarcasm for you.

"Nice attempt at backtracking. Not unexpected. But of course not bolstering your case."

--No. If I was backtracking, I would just let it go. I guilded my temper and reciprocated your charge of hypocrisy , my illegal status etc., in good stride.I am enjoying this actually.


Quote:
When I never said that a person is not illegal even if he/she breaks the law, but that is subject to investigation as opposed to someone openly declaring "What's my crime? I just love america", you are barking on me mindlessly "law states this and law states that..."

"So, you take the utterings of one protester and apply that to everybody? That's the kind of person you are? Thanks for making that clear for the world to see."

--I dont mean that at all. I put forth 2 cases as a scenario. One is illegal h1b guy. The other is the illegal alien protesting in the crowd. Let's assume both for the argument or drop them completely.You are using few fake h1b guys to undermine the legal process in order to make your case.



"Unlike you, I consider people to be individuals."

--Poor me!

"Dont watch court tv. Its getting into your head."

"You should watch it. You would be learning something."

--LOL! After what you demonstrated here? Naaaaaa.....
 
First of all, I just wanna to make sure that we are talking about illegal immigrants from ALL COUNTRIES, Mexico is just one of them. People burning the Mexico flag on TV is NOT COOL, in my opinion. No matter you are hispanic or not.

Ok, I guess our debate here is why those illegal immigrants should be granted a citenzenship or allow to stay here while the rest of the legal immigrants need to go through different kind of sponserships and wait for a long time?

How to define "illegal"?
- If you break the law and get the H1-B by using some "illegal" route, you are illegal immigrants and I bet the US government will catch you sooner or later.
- If you walk to US soil w/o visa, you are illegal be default even you are a "good citizen" in US. Again, I bet the US government will catch you sooner or later.

I don't think we have double standard here. I treat both "illegal immigrants" the same. But back to the orignal topic, should we grant those illegal immigrants citizenship while the rest of the legal immigrants still wait in line??? If it is the case, why we need to stay legal??

Maybe a lot of illegal are paying taxes by using a fake SSN, but it doesn't mean they can do it. They are just trying to get a fake identity in US and by doing this, they can get a driver license and a job opportunity. Getting a fake SSN is ILLEGAL in the first place. Just like if I rob a bank and donate everything to Red Cross, I still need to goto jail.

Also, the immigration process is very slow already. But letting those folks in line, it will definitely slow down the process.
 
Also, the immigration process is very slow already. But letting those folks in line, it will definitely slow down the process.[/QUOTE]

--I do not know if it could slow down the process definitely. If government deals with this process in an isolated manner. It may not.Designated visa quota and staff.

However, legalization process implemented with april 2001 deadline in the past still has its impact on existing immigration system. My labor application was pending in MD (behind "legalization" cases) for 2 years and piled in BEC right now. Its been more than 3 years altogether. Visa numbers are retrogressed , so there is no reason to feel relieved once it gets approved either.There are scores of people waiting with approved labor petition and I-140. Waiting to apply for I-485.And those who go beyond 6-year h1b limit, are having to jump through hurdles to get a case status to go for further extensions.Time and again, people get the same answer: "Department is flooded with applications already, we have limited resources!".


Life comes to stand still.In all aspects.Some fear address change. Some fear visiting their home country on 1-year extended visas. Some decline job promotions for the fear that they may have to start the whole process again. Employers keep extending h1b pouring in money to the lawyers.

And on top of this, if govt pays no regard to tax paying non-immigrants waiting in line with patience, and piles up the volume of new legalization cases to the already overburdened workload, it goes from bad to worse. And it is supposed to be "immigration reform".
 
Good point guys..

I believe it will slow down the immigration process because the government need to gather resources to legalize those people anyway. If they are using separate resources, people will ask why don't the government use those additional resources to speed up the legal immigration process instead? And who is paying the additional resources? We pay all the fees and I expect they do the same too. On the other hand, if we have "two lines". Which one should be faster to get a legal status in US? And how long can they stay? What is the difference between this one and the H1-B?

I agree that not everyone want to become a USC. But let's say I am on F1 and just graudate from college. I can't find a job here and of course I don't have my H1-B. By law, after the OPT (1 year after grad) I need to go back to my home country. However, can I just turn myself to be illegal immigrant one year later and ask for legal staus in US? I am not talking about immigration yet but just ask for a legal status to stay in US.
 
[I believe it will slow down the immigration process because the government need to gather resources to legalize those people anyway. If they are using separate resources, people will ask why don't the government use those additional resources to speed up the legal immigration process instead? And who is paying the additional resources? We pay all the fees and I expect they do the same too. On the other hand, if we have "two lines". Which one should be faster to get a legal status in US? And how long can they stay? What is the difference between this one and the H1-B?]


--Good question. But as a non-immigrant, I do not have the right to ask this government not spend any additional resources , even if "legalization" process is dealt with seperately and given high priority.

My focus should be on the line I am standing in. If there is any unfairness caused in my queue, then the most I can do is bring it to authorities' notice by expressing in a manner that I can. I cannot turn this into 'civil rights movement'. LOL! I am educated enough to know that I am not a citizen and I do not hold civilian rights.


I commend all h1b guys writing letters or faxing their concern to congress men about the delays in ongoing immigration process that's causing people to suffer. Any additional slow down of the process in the near future for any other noble cause of saving the world (or whatever) must be dealt with in a similar manner.
 
Let's say it WON'T slow down the immigration process. But why those ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS have the right to stay in US? That is the main point of the discussion.

H1, B2, J1, V1, O1, F1, etc. are all LEGAL while illegal immigrants are, guess what, ILLEGAL. That is the difference. The fees don't pay for the process then where does the fee goes? It might be a small part of the entire CIS budget but does it mean nothing?

The proposed bill would provide a way for people who are already illegal to get legal. While those legally staying in US right now need to find their own way to continue their legal status once their visa expire? I don't think it is making any sense at all. All illegal immigrants shouldn't be allowed to be here the very first place. They shouldn't be here the first day and they should feel lucky the government didn't take action to send them back (the border control is doing their jobs but it is impossible to stop all illegal immigrants).

Question for Good Friday =)

Why illegal can be legal?
 
JoeF said:
Different categories, different people working on it.
Click to expand...

Right, illegal immigrant are trying to find a way to make themsevles legal in this country. I really don't know what kind of categoires they should belong. You tell me.. Why don't they just go to school, get a degree, find a job and apply for a H1-B??? If they don't have the education and skills, sorry but they should only blame themselves.

JoeF said:
No, you could not turn yourself into an illegal immigrant one year later. That's yet another one of the things misrepresented by sensationalist media outlets. The proposed bill would provide a way for people who are already illegal to get legal. It would not provide a way for new illegals.
Click to expand...

If we legalize X number of illegal immigrants nowadays, and few years later we have another X number of illegal immigrants. What should we do?
 
Basically, the United States has a problem with the 11-12 million illegal aliens currently in the country. There are really 3 possibilities:

1. Do Nothing - Nobody seems happy with that and that is what everyone is trying to avoid.

2. Provide some type of legalization process. The process under consideration(actually, there are a few of them but the most know one) would provide an path to a green card that would take 11 years. The alien would need to pay all back taxes, prove residence in the US for at least 5 years (that would require proof by things like marriage certificates, school registrations, speeding tickets, divorces, and maybe things like banks statements, utlity bills and other old documents in their name - it really is not that hard), and pay a fine ($2000 was the last amount I heard). It really is not that quick a process and the $2000 fine plus the back taxes could generate billions in revenues for the US government. Also, ground of inadmissibility, other than the illegal entry and the unauthorized presence, would not be waived. Aliens who made a false claim to US Citizenship, committed crimes, made false statements to immigration officials, . . . , would not be permitted to remain.

3. Attempt to deport them all. This presents serious problems since it is practically impossible, would cost a fortune, even if it were possible, and we would not want to do it even if it could be done immediately and a zero cost. Many of these aliens are married to US citizens and cannot obtain any legal status since they entered illegally (marriage to a USC does not waive entry without inspection). Some entered as children and still are unable to obtain any legal status due to their illegal entry. Others own and operate businesses, some of which are quite successful (the reason for starting a business is that one way around the I-9 requirements for employers is for the alien to form a corporation and then have the company pay them under a corp-to-corp contract).

The situation is not really as simple as either side of the debate pretends that it is. on the one hand, most Americans do not want to reward people who violate US laws. However, the United States should do what is in the best interest of the United States, not to reward the alien, but because it is in our best interest. The problem is that, for unskilled workers, there are very few legal ways to enter the United States.

I also want to note that another bill that was proposed by the Congress would make ANY unauthorized presence in the United States an Aggravated Felony! This means that someone who overstays a visa, works for a company before the H-1B "transfer" was accepted by USCIS, or is otherwise present without authorization, regardless of how short the unauthorized presence was, would be permanently barred from ever reentering the United States without a waiver. The proposed bill would also criminalize anyone who assists a person illegally present. This is what the Catholic Cardinal is talking about when he says that he will keep helping poor people, regardless of their immigration status, and if the government wants to arrest him they know very well where to find him.
 
Jim,

Whatever happened to the registry ? It is my understanding that until 1971, if you stayed in the country for 5 years without having caused any trouble, you were allowed to file an I485. The US seemed to fare quite well with that system.
 
Of course illegals can't go to college. Unless they are paying the foreign student's tuition rate in college and have their student visa and I20 approved by the government just like the others. If they can't afford college, they I am sorry they need to find another way to come to US or get a scholarship or something. It is brutal but we have a legal system here to follow. I never doubt some of them are very bright kids and could contribute to the country in the future. That's why they need to do it right the first place - go back to their home country, apply F1, get a degree here, find a job, get H1-B, get GC, stay happy. We are not authorize people to stay here based on telent only. Maybe he can beat the top grad from Yale, but it just show he has the talent but doesn't mean he has the right to stay in this country. You know what I mean?

Ok, now we are talking about the children of illegal immigrants. I know it's not their choice to stay in US. But would it better for them to go back to their home country and stay "legal" instead of earning few bucks in a restaurant?

Their parents have the responsibility to teach their kids what is right and what is wrong and provide their kids a healthy environment to grow up. If the kids decide to start their criminal career, should they blame the society because we never give them a chance to goto college? Should they blame the society because we never issue them a valid SSN or driver license? Maybe they should blame why their parents are not USC...

EVERYONE (I repeat EVERYONE) can apply to stay in US legally by different paths. If you don't follow the rules and get your legal status here, why should the others follow? If you can't or not able to qualify any one of the methods, then you don't belong here... you just can't "pick" a country and stay there illegally and fight for legal status later.

JoeF said:
Illegals can't go to college...
There are several posts here on this site from people who got into this country illegally as little children, taken along with their parents. These people didn't decide for themselves if they wanted to be here or not, and now face the issue that they have no ties whatsoever to the country they were born in, and can't get an education past highschool in the US, either, since they are not allowed to go to college.
Now, you can blame their parents, sure, but these kids are in this situation without their fault. These are some things that strict anti-immigration policies don't take into account. The lives of these kids are destroyed for no fault of their own. No wonder that some of these young kids who don't have any perspective in life end up in a criminal "career" since that's pretty much the only path that's open to them. Some of these kids are so bright, and manage to beat people from top universities (see, e.g., http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/robot_pr.html)
That's indeed the biggest problem. That's where an amnesty fails. I don't claim to have a solution for this, but that's where the discussion should go.
Click to expand...
 
Very good points. I don't think it is realistic to deport all of them either. My only concern is how would the government compare them to those immigrants who have already been in lines legally for years? For example, if parents are USC and want to apply their children to here (over 21+), the whole process will take 10+ years. Will it be a little bit "faster" for them to come here for school first (4 years) then stay here illegally for the next 4-5 years if money is not a factor for them? I know there is no easy solutions for all questions and end up maybe we need to find a balance between two sides. But there is one thing I believe is they are illegal immigrants and shouldn't granted the legal status in US for free while the other legal immigrants need to "prove" their talent to stay here.

Jim Mills said:
Basically, the United States has a problem with the 11-12 million illegal aliens currently in the country. There are really 3 possibilities:

1. Do Nothing - Nobody seems happy with that and that is what everyone is trying to avoid.

2. Provide some type of legalization process. The process under consideration(actually, there are a few of them but the most know one) would provide an path to a green card that would take 11 years. The alien would need to pay all back taxes, prove residence in the US for at least 5 years (that would require proof by things like marriage certificates, school registrations, speeding tickets, divorces, and maybe things like banks statements, utlity bills and other old documents in their name - it really is not that hard), and pay a fine ($2000 was the last amount I heard). It really is not that quick a process and the $2000 fine plus the back taxes could generate billions in revenues for the US government. Also, ground of inadmissibility, other than the illegal entry and the unauthorized presence, would not be waived. Aliens who made a false claim to US Citizenship, committed crimes, made false statements to immigration officials, . . . , would not be permitted to remain.

3. Attempt to deport them all. This presents serious problems since it is practically impossible, would cost a fortune, even if it were possible, and we would not want to do it even if it could be done immediately and a zero cost. Many of these aliens are married to US citizens and cannot obtain any legal status since they entered illegally (marriage to a USC does not waive entry without inspection). Some entered as children and still are unable to obtain any legal status due to their illegal entry. Others own and operate businesses, some of which are quite successful (the reason for starting a business is that one way around the I-9 requirements for employers is for the alien to form a corporation and then have the company pay them under a corp-to-corp contract).

The situation is not really as simple as either side of the debate pretends that it is. on the one hand, most Americans do not want to reward people who violate US laws. However, the United States should do what is in the best interest of the United States, not to reward the alien, but because it is in our best interest. The problem is that, for unskilled workers, there are very few legal ways to enter the United States.

I also want to note that another bill that was proposed by the Congress would make ANY unauthorized presence in the United States an Aggravated Felony! This means that someone who overstays a visa, works for a company before the H-1B "transfer" was accepted by USCIS, or is otherwise present without authorization, regardless of how short the unauthorized presence was, would be permanently barred from ever reentering the United States without a waiver. The proposed bill would also criminalize anyone who assists a person illegally present. This is what the Catholic Cardinal is talking about when he says that he will keep helping poor people, regardless of their immigration status, and if the government wants to arrest him they know very well where to find him.
Click to expand...
 
"They grew up here doesn't mean they can have a valid US passport and allow to stay in US". Let me ask you this, can I just walk to Mexico, hide for few years and get my legal status later? I am not sure about the immigration laws in Mexico (maybe it is possible!!), but not in US..

I am not sure will you get a US passport if you born here even your mom is an illegal immigrant. If you do, that's fine and you should be treated as citizen like the others. If not or if you come here after x years old, then why should you have the right to stay here? You live here long enough doesn't mean you are legal to stay here. They are two different things.

Yes, I think the should get their education. They can't get it here because of their status. That's why I suggest them to get apply it through the legal way. Leaving the country and get the F1 is one of them. May I ask why they can break the rules?? Who give them right to stay here the first place.

I think you don't get it. How do you define home country? They might spent 99% of time in US and learn all the culture, but there is no way to grant them citizenship or legal status to stay just because of that.

I am not "punhsihing" them. I just want to clear up their identity and come back again. Some of them may able to and some of them may not. All legal immigrants are facing the same thing everyday. The whole immigration process has no guarantee.

How can a 2-year old child apply to stay in US? Of course he is not able to. If his parents are illegal immigrants, the baby AND his parents have no right to stay in US at all. No matter he is a 2-year old child or 20-year old kid. They are all illegal immigrants. Why you want your child grow up in a place where he will not get a legal status?

Yes, those children didn't pick a country. But does US pick them? It is unfortunate for them to "stuck" in this country. However, they NEVER have rights to stay here the first place.
 
"Parental rights. Children should be with their parents.
And, these children, who came here without being asked, should indeed get legal status."

Great, let me ask my friends overseas to bring their kids over. According to you, they should indeed get their legal status here sooner or later. And since children should be with their parents (which I agree), their illegal stay parents should get their legal status too. Forget about green card or lottery... just come here and stay!

"No, they don't. Or did you come here as little child with your parents?"

I didn't come here with my parents. I get my GC via employment-based H1-B. Like most of us here, I follow the time consuming immigration process legally. How about you?

"Home country has nothing to do with citizenship. It is the country the person grew up in."

Exactly. They grow up here but has nothing to do with citizenship. I guess we share the same point here?

"You would have to ask the parents that. But it doesn't matter. The fact is and remains that these children did not choose to be here. So, they shouldn't be punished for something they didn't do."

I never say we should put those kids to jail because his parents bring him over. I just want their parents go back to wherever they from with their childrens. If you insist to let those kids stay here, you are asking their parents to stay as well. As you said, they shoudn't be punished for sth. they didn't do, they what should we do? Grant them a legal status? how about their parents? If the kid is only 2-year old, definitely the kid needs the parents. And should we grant the parents too? SHould they pay out-of state tutuion in college? If not, why all foreign students need to pay expensive tuition? Because their parents are not illegal immigrants? How about those illegal immigrants w/o kid? Should they "make" one now just in case? :D

"So what? If you want to argue that way, then most Americans don't have rights to stay here. The land was illegally taken from the Native Americans, after all."

wow.. I don't know what to say about this. I gotta ask my human bio professor and see who is the first ever human exist on this planet. Eskimo? But too bad they don't travel that south.
 
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JoeF said:
You are getting silly.
I haven't said anything about encouraging people to do that. I am talking about children who are already here.
I am not going on your level of complete sillyness. If you want to discuss this, I suggest you stay with the topic at hand.
So did I. Unlike you, however, I have what makes humans human: empathy.
The fact that they grew up here makes this their home, regardless of legal status.
Deporting the children back to a country where they are complete strangers, where they don't know the culture, is punishment. That would destroy their lives. The US is their home, if you like it or not. The US is their home, even if they are illegal. Deporting them is inhumane, in my opinion.
Yes.
If the child at this time is 2 years old, there is no issue about getting the parents and the child back to their home country. I am talking about kids who grew up here. Kid who are now teenagers, adults.
I have no problem with them paying higher tuition, as long as they can get into college.
The human race started in Africa. The Native Americans came to this continent over the Bering Strait. There were no humans on this continent before. This is all very well known stuff. Should be common knowledge. I suggest a little less fighting over some arbitrary, human-made borders and nationality and learning more about science...
Nation states, btw, are a concept of the 19th century. They are becoming an anachronism in the globalism of the 21st century.
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Joe, I do not completely agree with you even though I understand your point.
It's true that their children did not ask to come here but their parents decided their destiny for them and in my opinion it's not a punishment to send them back. Would have word it differently it by some chance, the situation in their country improved and it's better than in the US?
I read it somewhere that a woman once ran into a US embassy somewhere on this planet to give birth to her child on the US soil so it can be an american citizen. In my book, that's wrong. Would you grant that child his right to be an american citizen? I wouldn't, although by law the child is a citizen.
Also, you have to remember that even though some (we can even say most) of those kids might be very smart and could contribute to this country, they were also raised here on "your" taxes, they are also the ones nowadays pushing for amnesty for their parents, which I do not agree with, and depending on how their parents raised them, might already be in the criminal lane being members of various gangs as probably most popular in California.
You seem to read a lot, but it seems you missed an article recently where a bunch of kids were caught in an action by I don't even know which agency anymore, being members of some gangs and are waiting deportation.
I would not give prefference or make exceptions to anyone who's here illegaly. Once you start doing that, somebody else will want an exception later on as well and soon you have a domino effect.
You send their parents back, you send their children back with them.
Mexico for example wouldn't treat you as well as we treat them.
It's hypocricy at it's best. They ask for humane treatment of their residents here and offer no such thing to illegals in their country.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-04-18-18-08-31
 
One more thing on the whole science thing. If you start going the human-made borders way, you'll soon end up with anarchy or even worse, dictatorship of some sort. The only people I know of preaching about eliminating borders are commies.
It's very simple. No borders, no country.
Once you get into what you're suggesting and trying to be relaxed about it, you'll end up with people walking into your home taking your stuff.
Think about it.
 
Deporting the children back to a country where they are complete strangers, where they don't know the culture, is punishment. That would destroy their lives. The US is their home, if you like it or not. The US is their home, even if they are illegal. Deporting them is inhumane, in my opinion.
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I don't believe this even for a second. I don't live in the state I grew up in but for the sake of argument lets say it was a "foreign country". I've got dozens of relatives in that "foreign country". I've also got kids with me that, if necessary, I could send back to that "foreign country" and there are a handful of relatives that I have no doubt would take my kids in.

"complete strangers" "don't know the culture" give me a break. We all saw hundreds of thousands of "immigrants" over the last few weeks protesting in the streets. I sure saw a lot of Mexican flags along with a few from El Salvador, Honduras and Guatamala to name a few. Heard a lot of "Viva La Raza". These people know exactly what their home country's cultures are.

It doesn't matter if they came here at 2 years old or 20 years old. If they didn't follow the correct procedure, jumped ahead of the thousands who are waiting it out the legal way, they are illegal. They should get no special privileges or amnesty. If they are caught they should be deported.

If an illegal leaves the country, the person is banned from entering, and can't get an F1.
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The ban is only for 10 years. Shouldn't be a problem for a young person. Also, the ban only applies if you get caught in the US illegally. If the person entered the US illegally and simply leaves.....who's to say they were here in the first place??

The Native Americans came to this continent over the Bering Strait.
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I'm not sure this is really accurate any more.
http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1980/2/80.02.07.x.html
"Man could have crossed the Bering land bridge during much of the Pleistocene. In addition he could have crossed on the winter pack ice even when the land bridge was severed. Finally, early man may well have had knowledge of light craft and could have negotiated the open strait. (map IV) It is impossible to say when humans first conceived the idea of water transportation. Boats of many kinds were in use all over the world long before the beginning of recorded history."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/11/17/carolina.dig/
"An archaeologist from the University of South Carolina on Wednesday announced radiocarbon tests that dated the first human settlement in North America to 50,000 years ago -- at least 25,000 years before other known human sites on the continent."
"Many scientists thought humans first ventured into the New World across a land bridge from present-day Russia into Alaska about 13,000 years ago."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11451616/
"Archaeologist suggests prehistoric hunters from Spain sailed west"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5927028/
"Did first Americans come from ... Australia?
Researcher makes claim on basis of skulls and more"
 
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Your beliefs are irrelevant.
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OK, sorry I'm not as important in your eyes as you are. However, you are going to have to prove how sending an illegal child back to their country of orign is a punishment, where they would be complete strangers and their lives would be destroyed.

Hey, I forgot about Univision and Telemundo. Two great ways to keep up with news from the homeland, the language and the culture!!

And what does that have to do with illegals?
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My point was that recent immigrants, legal or illegal, are going to keep up with the home country cultures and languages. But I know, my point is irrelevant....

The people demonstrating were in the vast majority not illegal.
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Are you sure?
http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/44.pdf
"37 million foreign born living in the US. 29% (10.3 million) are undocumented (illegal). 57% of the undocumented (illegal) are from Mexico and 24% of the undocumented (illegal) are from other Latin American countries. 24% of the undocumented (illegal) live in California."
Keep in mind this is a 2005 report based on the 2000 Census. So the numbers are more than likely higher now. Lately I've been hearing a figure of 20 million illegals in the US.

Anyway, sure all the people demonstrating were not illegal. I don't think the "vast" majority were legal though. My guess would be at least 50% were illegal. But since no one was taking a count I guess we really won't ever know.

How can a 2-year old "follow the correct procedure"?
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They can't. It should have been the parent's responsibility to follow the correct procedure. But that doesn't make the 2 year old's status any less illegal. Why doesn't that make sense to you?
 
The law enforcement groups have started to catch illegal immigrants. They caught more than 1000 from one log company.

I think dealing with the employers first is the best way to crack down the illegal activites. What do you guys think?
 
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