Legal vs. Illegal Immigrants

kelvinjai

Registered Users (C)
As we all know, there are a lot of protests today by the illegal immigrants. I don't know what is their right to stay in US and not trying to start a debate here. All I know is I came to this country legally and get my green card after YEARS of waiting. If Bush grant them the status in US, how about those With H1-B, F1?? That is not fair. I am really surprise not many people bring up this topic..
 
Agree! Its quite unfair.

Also who knows if those illegal immigrants would pay income taxes after they are legalized. They didn't play by rules who know if they will later on.

They might culmulate all the taxes they owe and ask for the federal gov to waive them all at once. And people like us, work our butt off to pay taxes.
 
My hubby(American) was kinda easily brain-washed by Bush's statement, "if they're legal ..." I told him it will NOT solve the problem, but will definitely cause a huge cross-fence wave at the border, because people see the perfect example to take the easy route.
 
Read this

As we are discussing legal vs illegal. I request everyone to see check this blog and thread.

Please show your support

http://legalsfirst.blogspot.com

http://boards.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?t=209400

Thanks.

JoeF said:
First off, how do you know that it was illegals who protested? If they would, CBP could easily pick them up. Besides, they can hardly afford to protest...
The protests are from legal immigrants and US citizens in support of illegals.
Now, while legalization of a certain kind of illegals may be unfair to the people who went through all the hoops to stay legal (like most here, me included), that doesn't change the fact that it is preferrable to get these people out the shadows. For example, here in CA, I pay extra for uninsured motorist insurance because illegals can't get car insurance (since they can't get a drivers license.)
If, for example, they could get a drivers license, there would be no need for the additional insurance.
And, this guest-worker program is anything but an "easy route," as everybody who actually reads through it would see.
Having said all that, I personally doubt that it is going to go through, since elections are coming up, and with such a highly emotional topic, no Congressperson wants to be seen as "soft on immigration."
 
JoeF, I live in AZ and we have a lot of illegal immigrants also. You made a good point saying that why don't CBP go ahead and pick them up. In fact I have the same question too. I am not sure about the protests in southern CA, but in AZ I saw at least two illegal immigrants talking to the reporters on TV last night. They said they have no choice and need to feed the family in Mexico. I feel sorry to their stories. But in my opinion, although we can't stop all illegal immigrants, it doesn't mean they are legal to stay or even enter here. Why don't we just open the border? Just like if I file bankruptcy, can I rob the bank to feed my baby? I know it is not a good example but we need to define legal and illegal clearly.

I agree that by bring them out of the shadows will solve a lot of problems. But can the society able to support them? Most of them don't have good income (don't even think about ask them to pay back all taxes) and will rely on social security. The money is coming from us anyway. They need schools, hospitals and all other public facilities.

I am not sure about guest-worker program. But may I ask what is the different between employment-based Green Card and this program? If they can stay in US and become a citizen, why the government has a double standard? As you know, we need to be a highely educated skilled labor in order to apply for green card through our employer. How about them? Maybe I should quit the school, find a part time, live as illegal, don't pay any taxes and join the guest-worker program, aka "easy route"? It IS an easy route for them, but hard one for the rest.

Although I have already received my GC, I still follow this news closely because some of my friends and relatives are still waiting in line and try to get their GC legally. It is a long process and I think legal immigrants should speak up and protect our rights too. We did everything legally and we deserve to have the easy route =)
 
What needed is a same playing field with all h1b people and everyone in the line for GC. We play the rules, they should as well.
 
CBP could not arrest thousands of people at once. I am not talking about hundred thousands who protesting. They definitly not going to deport 11 million people also. I read somewhere that estimated cost would be over 200 billion dollars. Who is going to pay for that?
On the other hand legalizing all illegals is not going to solve the problem. Soon there will be another 11 millions. USC understand this, and as JoeF said, parties do want to support illegals all the way because they will lose the votes.
What can I say, very complex issue. I kind of sorry for those illegals. Even if they get the road to citizenship, a lot of people will try to profit from it (like lawyers, dishonest employers and other scam artists).
 
"And lots of people who apply for an H1 state fairly openly that they "padded" their resumes, i.e., faked it, or used fake diplomas. Quite frankly, I don't see much difference between these people and the people who sneak over the border. Both are law breakers. I am waiting for legal immigrants to speak out against that...And then there are the "mail-order brides"..."

--I see some difference:

*Using the system to let it "find out" -vs- ignoring the system altogether.

*Innocent until proven guilty -vs- guilty alright, but it aint no crime, we just love america.
 
merovingian said:
Even if they get the road to citizenship, a lot of people will try to profit from it (like lawyers, dishonest employers and other scam artists).

Very right. Look at the new laws there were proposing dividing people into 3 categories. > 5years, 5-2 years, < 2 years. How on earth an illegal can prove what category he belongs. A perfect recipe for manipulation.
 
I can see the ONLY way out of this is to wait until the US to become as poor to Mexico or Mexico to become as rich as US, just like the water level.

I personally think its more possible to see the first to happen than the 2nd.

What do you guys think? Then, we all need to immigrate to somewhere else :D
 
"A little double standard, eh? That's exactly what I was aiming to point out. You can't excuse one kind with "playing the system" and the other one with shouting "illegal".Both are illegal."

--The difference between the two was NOT aimed at excusing "legal" law breakers and punishing the "authentic" illegals. You are building a straw-man to tear down the argument. The observation was aimed at showing the scope(or potential) to "prove" guilty(or otherwise) in the former and the complete lack of it in the latter.

Take 100 cases pursuing legal immigration(60 of which are with "padded" resumes and fake diplomas). You cannot posit that 60% lot(System had the opportunity to investigate. They are as legal as anybody else by definition.) against 100 illegals(No scope for percentage here.), and demand that prospective immigrants cannot express frustration over unfair "legalization" of the illegals.And your argument is based on the assumption or charge that there are legal immigrants who abused the system.But not on definite terms.Burden to prove rests on the one who is making the charge.To compare them with illegals could follow then.

"Or, people who are in glasshouses should not throw stones."

--And they should also pull curtains when they change clothes. What's the point? -:)


"First off, in immigration law, it is guilty until proven innocent."

--Is it? Every non-immigrant working hard and paying taxes while pursuing immigration legally is only doing this to prove that he/she is not guilty rather innocent?


"Law breakers are law breakers."

--100% agreed.
 
"Also who knows if those illegal immigrants would pay income taxes after they are legalized.They didn't play by rules who know if they will later on.They might culmulate all the taxes they owe and ask for the federal gov to waive them all at once. And people like us, work our butt off to pay taxes."

--I dont think so. Every "legalization" scheme like this had proven to have "paid off" in the past.Benefits of legalizing 11 million illegals outweighs any presumed fears. It helps US economy.

The only concern legal immigration aspirants could express at this point is to communicate the unfairness. Legalization process for illegals must be dealt with seperately. Any resources that are already exasperated in handling the load of legal immigration process should not be allocated for this new "legalization".Not to mention the visa quota.
 
100% agree!! The US government require us to be a professional with a degree in order to stay in US. They should do the same...

ssg10 said:
What needed is a same playing field with all h1b people and everyone in the line for GC. We play the rules, they should as well.
 
I agree that those "bad" H1 people should have their visa removed + punish their employers. They are law breakers definitely. However, we have a system to prevent it happens. I think INS is doing their jobs to verify all applications.

But illegal immigrants are just illegal to stay/enter here. They don't even try to get a working visa and just walk to the US soil.

IF we give those illegal immigrants citizenship, should we give those "bad" H1 people a chance also? Then what's the point of the entire immigration process??? We are able to stay in US becasue of a reason (either we are professional or have family here or investor). But what I see is most illegal immigrants just want to stay here, earn enough money and send back home.

Mail-order brides? I believe we have the 2-year conditional GC rule to prevent it happens. But again, if they decide to divorce after 2 years and 1 day, nothing much we can do. They are not breaking the law, instead they are just taking advantage of the existing system.


JoeF said:
Hmm, in particular with the H1, there are lots and lots of people who don't quite play by the rules. For example, people on H1 who get benched without pay are illegal. And the proposed bill in the House makes being illegal a felony, so all these people who work for unscrupulous consultanties that bench them without pay could kiss their GCs goodbye...

The key is not punishing the immigrants, the key is punishing the employers. It always takes two to tango...

And lots of people who apply for an H1 state fairly openly that they "padded" their resumes, i.e., faked it, or used fake diplomas.
Quite frankly, I don't see much difference between these people and the people who sneak over the border. Both are law breakers. I am waiting for legal immigrants to speak out against that...
And then there are the "mail-order brides"...
 
Maybe those illegal immigrants are using only 1% of the resources. But let me being selfish =), why we need to pay that 1% more for those people who is not suppose to stay here and never pay taxes before?

JoeF said:
Yes, it is indeed a very complex issue, and these little sound snippets like predicting long waiting times for X are just not cutting it. That's nothing more than playing on fears. The same for "they are cutting in line", or for relying on social security... For example, for quite some time, people on talk radio have claimed that illegals are the cause for the hospital crisis. A recent study has shown that this just isn't true. The hospital crisis is caused by Americans without health insurance.

So, in summary, I suggest avoiding the alarmist news shows and talk radio stations...
As a famous writer said long ago: "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."
 
Good point. But I think it is IMMPOSSIBLE to treat both legal and illegal immigrants fairly.

Right now it takes ~5 years for a legal immigrants to get a employment-based GC. And as we all know, we need to be some kind of "professionals".

How long should it take for an illegal immigrants who work in a car wash place to get his GC?

I don't know the answer because that will be double standard. Let's say if I am in the middle of GC process and get laid off, can I "switch" to the illegal imigrants line?

anilt75 said:
"Also who knows if those illegal immigrants would pay income taxes after they are legalized.They didn't play by rules who know if they will later on.They might culmulate all the taxes they owe and ask for the federal gov to waive them all at once. And people like us, work our butt off to pay taxes."

--I dont think so. Every "legalization" scheme like this had proven to have "paid off" in the past.Benefits of legalizing 11 million illegals outweighs any presumed fears. It helps US economy.

The only concern legal immigration aspirants could express at this point is to communicate the unfairness. Legalization process for illegals must be dealt with seperately. Any resources that are already exasperated in handling the load of legal immigration process should not be allocated for this new "legalization".Not to mention the visa quota.
 
Yes, they are illegal =) But they won't come out and "fight" for their "rights" like the illegal immigrants does. We should treat them the same, no matter you are an illegal immigrant or legal immigrant but against the law.. sorry, you shouldn't allow to be here.

JoeF said:
The 60% are not legal. Lying to immigration officials, hiding a material fact, makes them illegal and deportable. Check the law: INA 212.
They are definitely illegal.
Nope. Not with the immigration law. Again, INA 212. It is automatic. Hiding a material fact makes a person illegal, if CIS knows about it or not.
Yes it is. INA 212.
This is what a lot of people, both inside and outside the immigration community, do not understand.
It is automatic. You hide a material fact, you automatically illegal and can be deported. The position of CIS is, since in such a case, you were not eligible for the immigration benefit in the first place, and therefore, your stay is illegal.
INA 212 of course also covers entry without inspection. No difference whatsoever.
 
"It is easy to complain about the illegals from Mexico, when they are not here to defend themselves..."

--It is sad that the term "illegal" has begun to connote mexicans.There are illegals from other countries too.

Joe, you seem to have good intentions, but finding it difficult to communicate. INA 212 or whatever, painting entire legal process with one brush for the fact that some abuse legal process is not going to fly. It undermines entire legal process. I see that as futile attempt to defend illegal aliens. May be you should play a "lawyer" on t.v. -:)

Guys, I would limit my criticism to any unfairness this "legalization of illegals" could cause to legal aspirants.

I could care less if america wants to give a "medal of honor" to illegals(for successfully managing to live in this country without getting deported).
 
"According to a recent newspaper article in the LA Times, the second largest group of illegals after Hispanics is Asians. In particular Chinese are smuggled into the country. The third-largest group, down from second place, is Canadians. White, native English speakers, nobody suspects somebody like that to be illegal..."

--I read what you posted to mean--all illegals are not mexicans. You are reiterating my point or am I missing something here?

"Huh? On what basis are you arguing if not on basis of the law? INA (the Immigration and Nationality Act) Section 212 is what determines the legality of a non-US citizen's presence in the US. US laws apply to everybody in the US (except diplomats). So, the legal process is painted with one brush and one brush only."

--You dont judge entire legal process to be feeble enough to be bypassed just because some people abused it. If you still dont get it, then you dont get it.

["I see that as futile attempt to defend illegal aliens. May be you should play a "lawyer" on t.v. - ]

[Hmm, it seems you haven't been around the Internet for all that long. The line in my signature is a play on an old Net abbreviation: IANALBIPLOOTV, "I am not a lawyer but I play one on TV". Was used on a lot of Usenet posts.]

--I sense your frustration with humor. But I honestly think you must play one on t.v. !!

"And, quite frankly, I see your attempt at trying to defend H1s who fall out of status and condemn other illegals as hypocrisy. It looks as if you think the Hispanic illegals are somewhat less worthy than people on H1 who became illegal. And such an attempt to create a two-class system of illegals, one class being the "desirables" and the other class being the "untouchables" is just despicable."

--LOL! If you read my posts from the begining, I never defended lawbreakers, not to mention taking any community's name. Either you had a bad day or you encountered someone (humble me;-) who made you think hard. Spare personal attacks and chill!!

Why bother with legal process?

Every automatic-conscience-stricken-legal-alien-nevertheless-illegal becomes legal automatically! And USCIS with INA 212 would not even know it. Let the bill pass!! You can really entertain some on t.v.LOL!
 
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