H1Bs a threat to Green card holders and Citizens

My $0.02

At this point in my life, after graduating from a "premiere" undergrad Institute and joining grad school here, going thru the H1B process and then stuck in I-485 limbo - these are the pearls of wisdom I have gathered in my travels :
(1) Humans are insecure social narcissists who need to relate to others and at the same time convince themselves why they are better than the rest. Pride and insecurity at the same time ! Hence usage of the terms "First World", "CountryClub" "BMW", "Ivy League", "IIT" etc. in the context of a "coolness" factor
(2) People who are not in the above list make up some more like "KKK", "Gestapo", "Skulls and Bones", "BajrangDal", "Brahmin" etc to add to the "coolness" list.
(3) These are all basically old boys clubs. People in any of the above clubs are convinced of their exclusivity and believe they are better than the rest
(4) Stupidity is universal, doesn't matter which of the above coolness factors one can relate to. Incompetence comes in all shape, size, color - just look around you. Same goes for competence.
(4) People who cannot relate to anything in the generally accepted "coolness" factors get pissed of at the ones who can. Most people realize the absurdity by the time they are 70.
(5) The urge to beat our own drum is so primal, that we don't fail to mention which of the "coolness" factors we can relate to, even in an anonymous chatroom
(6) Getting rid of H1B will not reduce job insecurity, it will degrade work quality
(7) America is the "Land-of-Opportunites", not the "Land-of-Job-Opportunities". i.e. there are more opportunities out there
(8) INS sucks
 
They are really Gems of wisdom, waytoolong. I don't know why you were hiding your wisdom all these days. Did you study psychology (or) Socialogy ? How ever, i have one complaint against you. For some reason, you always blame Men when ever any discussion comes. You seem to be habitual male basher.
Anyway, i agree with your above posting. Good job :cool:
 
Originally posted by TheRealCanadian
Hey, I'm human. I have pre-conceived notions, and I'm not afraid to say them. I am genuinely interested in hearing from others, and changing those pre-conceived notions if not supported by facts.
Click to expand...

That's very good...but you have to understand...you are not the only one....I have come across so many people (in 10 years of overseas travel) with such false pre-conceived notions...should explain my outburst .... PEACE.
 
TRC

Well it will take a long time to finish this discussion. The education methodology is different in different countries (and within colleges). In the US there is more stress on a lot extra-curricular activities. That’s a little difficult because of lack of resources and also extreme competition. But there are quite a few people who have well-rounded knowledge. Many guys from IITs are very knowledgeable in areas other than geekdom! "Analytical development" really depends on the schools you attend. Yes there are colleges that make you "memorize" stuff but there are colleges that emphasize analytical thinking. Indians score pretty decently on analytical sections on the GRE (they get screwed on the verbal sec!). There are quite a few analysts (fin and mgmt) who are Indian. As a matter of fact CEO of McKinsey is an Indian guy. Of course there are people like CD who run at the first sight of competition.
I have met many Americans whose way of thinking amazes me. I was really surprised at the different perspective of people on certain issues. But I do find a lot of preconceived notions. They don’t show it but I have overheard (didn’t even have to try) a lot of stuff. Americans are groomed to be "unique individuals" all of their life and are suddenly expected to work in "teams" and they wonder why it doesn’t work. Most Asian countries are brought up in a more "rigid" and conforming environment. But that doesn’t necessarily mean lack of analytical thinking. As far as business acumen goes, I think it depends on the person rather than on education. I think most business skills can be learnt on the job. There are things that people who grew up in different cultures will not know. As far as businesses are concerned the "general" cultures are mostly the same. There are companies in India where everyone wears a tie! I have never done that here!
On a lighter note… whats with the tie? It serves no purpose! A piece of cloth hanging that constricts your neck! Why in the world did it become so popular? It gets stuck in doors, gets in your food and is dangerous when you are near fans! Anyone know why we wear ties?
 
What I have learned..

from my travels - which to me seem pretty extensive having worked on a dozen projects in 9 states. The following obsevations are specific to what I have experienced and not meant to be general in nature. I have also worked with some absolutely fantastic people.

(1) Size of the ego. I have known brilliant guys who would not give you the time of day. In many situations the first and sometimes the only need is for the ego to be satisfied.

(2) Work culture. To most American employees the job is a very tiny part of their overall life and so will not go that extra mile when required.

(3) Loyalty towards company. This element is pretty low and translates to a dont-care-if-things-dont-work-and-we-lose-money attitude.

(4). Attitude. Another factor for many mangers to prefer contractors over regular employees as they are easier to work with. The general rule of thumb is be curt and offensive.

(5) This whole immigration deal sucks.
 
Originally posted by dsatish
They are really Gems of wisdom, waytoolong. I don't know why you were hiding your wisdom all these days. Did you study psychology (or) Socialogy ? How ever, i have one complaint against you. For some reason, you always blame Men when ever any discussion comes. You seem to be habitual male basher.
Anyway, i agree with your above posting. Good job :cool:
Click to expand...

You are right about the male bashing - I honestly think women have been getting the raw end of the stick for a long time. The discrimination made sense while hunting and gathering but makes absolutely makes no sense when we sit on our butts and crank out computer stuff. How macho is that ? There was a time when we had to fight lions to put food on the table - we demanded respect, we had large hairy chests worthy of being thumped !!! I don't think that works anymore.

However, since we susceptible to pre-conceived notions, we tend to treat people the way our society and culture (read centuries of crap) dictates us to. "It has to be this way since this is the it has always been ...". N = N + 1 .. hence it has to be always true. Hence, I got to be, desparately, somehow, better than you.

Some folks here had preconceived notions about my pet elephant (long story) and I grew up with preconceived notions about my place in a non-egalitarian society. It is the same crap north or south, black or white, orient or occident. It is all pretty pathetic if you ask me.
 
PatienceGC

I have wondered awhile about why men in India have to wear ties to do desk jobs that have no interaction whatsoever with "clients". Then I figured out, it is just plain easy for the bosses to hold the person in one place and tighten the knot if required. This is just the best tool to derive the 5x productivity that TRC mentioned.

Ofcourse women alway are productive and so there is no need for them to wear a tie.:)
 
Thanks everyone for your replies. I'll say again that I've learned a lot from all of you here in this thread. I'm glad that what started out as an H-1B bashing session turned into something where by fits and starts we learned a little more about each other.

I stand by my contention that in order to escape offshoring you need to add increased value; tonight I need to re-examine a lot of previously held assumptions to see if they hold water. Right now the prima facie case is that they do not.

Let's all say a prayer for speedy I-485 approval and something more than a glacial pace in the Atlanta local office.
 
I believe that India will be given it's own medicine with in few years(I mean jobs outsourced from US to India will be outsourced from India to other country).

Already some companies are planning to move the call center operations from India to other low wage country.


Silicon.com article:
India's skills shortage: A nice problem to have?
http://www.silicon.com/leader/500021/1/2926.html
 
+ve attitude

It was fun reading this thread, specially now when positivity is grim low. waytoolong, RealCanadian, patienceGC and others who contributed to this thread, way to go!
Stay positive ... and I mean with immigration stuff too :)
 
You amaze me

I am hanging in this web page for more than four years. This is the best philosophy about life I have heard so far. Kudos to you Mr waytoolong!!!

Originally posted by waytoolong
At this point in my life, after graduating from a "premiere" undergrad Institute and joining grad school here, going thru the H1B process and then stuck in I-485 limbo - these are the pearls of wisdom I have gathered in my travels :
(1) Humans are insecure social narcissists who need to relate to others and at the same time convince themselves why they are better than the rest. Pride and insecurity at the same time ! Hence usage of the terms "First World", "CountryClub" "BMW", "Ivy League", "IIT" etc. in the context of a "coolness" factor
(2) People who are not in the above list make up some more like "KKK", "Gestapo", "Skulls and Bones", "BajrangDal", "Brahmin" etc to add to the "coolness" list.
(3) These are all basically old boys clubs. People in any of the above clubs are convinced of their exclusivity and believe they are better than the rest
(4) Stupidity is universal, doesn't matter which of the above coolness factors one can relate to. Incompetence comes in all shape, size, color - just look around you. Same goes for competence.
(4) People who cannot relate to anything in the generally accepted "coolness" factors get pissed of at the ones who can. Most people realize the absurdity by the time they are 70.
(5) The urge to beat our own drum is so primal, that we don't fail to mention which of the "coolness" factors we can relate to, even in an anonymous chatroom
(6) Getting rid of H1B will not reduce job insecurity, it will degrade work quality
(7) America is the "Land-of-Opportunites", not the "Land-of-Job-Opportunities". i.e. there are more opportunities out there
(8) INS sucks
Click to expand...
 
Hi waytoolong,
With all this obvious intelligence, i wonder why on earth did you pick up that illiterate pornstar 'sharabi' to be your rival ? you seem to enjoy the fights with him.
PS : I hate your anti-male attitude. I see this attitude prevalent very highly among women (almost every women seems to suffer from this decease). I am not sure if you are a man or women, but you should understand that there are as many stupids among women as there are among men. Stupidity has no race.
 
Expanding more on what PatienceGC said before:

I do believe that Indians have very good analytical and math skills. But there is a fundamental difference the way we look at the education and the way Americans look at education. We by and large go for the education for a degree. I say this because most of us are pressured into doing some degree because of the parents or the relatives or everyone is doing the same. Let me ask you a question; how many of you who have done their Electronics can define in simple terms how a diode or triode works without the mathematical equations.

I have seen the books of the kids here. If you look at the history books, it is like a story. No emphasis on dates and no need to worry abour when the first, second or third battle of Panipat took place. Also the kids here when they complete their education, develop a lot of entrepreneurial, management and communication skills which are very very important.
 
Most of the indian universities put too much stess on theory. We gain very very little practical knowledge. People complete civil engineering degrees there without even getting an understanding f how even a mud house is built. Our(indian) education is not job oriented. It is not research oriented either. It is just dumping. I do not know much about American education, but from what i hear, i think their undergrad and graduate education is good. How ever, in India, post graduation (same as grad school here) is good. Coming to primary education, India scores very highly, knowledgewise and America scores highly in creativity and communication skills. I am not sure at this stage, what is more important at school stage. May be India and USA can borrow some pieces from each other.
 
Well said dsatish. American primary education should emphasize more on rote memory. Here the Government schools are sub-par because almost all the students get promoted to the next grade. You cannot discipline kids and you have too many holidays.
 
This is absoulutely beautiful

dsatish and frantic very glibly summarized what created this phenomenon of outsourcing (US education system* creates more entrepreneurs and Indian education systems creates the know-how necessary to support the ventures).

And taurus99's link explains why this always happens during industrial expansions and why no-one should be worried about it.


*Mostly the private schools
 
My 2 cents

Many Asian countries (India, China, Japan to name a few) are not paying enough attention to very important aspects of education: social skill, leadership skills, and communication skill.

Our graduates may be able to solve very complicated differential equations, which may not be of much use for 99.99% of the graduates in their whole life. However, very few of them can formulate a practical science or engineering problem into a simple mathematical equation, which everyone can solve.
 
H1-B Threat

Is there any statistics available on the threat of EAD/Green Card holders and Citizens from H1Bs and Outsourcing?
 
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