German Visa on a NP??

wantmygcnow

Volunteer Moderator
My sister who is a GC holder(through asylum) since 2003 renewed her NP since she wanted to travel to Germany and didn't want to wait for the stupid RTD.

The German embassy tells her that since she has been to germany before on a RTD, she is "breaking U.S Laws" by using her NP. To which she replied that she is a GC holder now and can use her NP to travel as instructed by USCIS help line. HOwever the stupid German maintained the same line.

Who is right in this matter? Any proof so that she can shove a memo at the German bastard?
 
thankful said:
She is not expected to use np--this is in customary international refugee law.

But if she is a PR she can renew NP. Lots of prevoius asylees have like PM etc...

So what should she do now?
 
Different Consulate

Want,
One thing you can try is send her NP and Notorized copy of her GC to a different consulate if possible. Every time you call an Embassy with a question, I don't know why but seems like we run into more smart ass people who are just there to find something wrong with your inquiry. I don't know why it would make a difference to them because in this case PP is just being used as an ID and she has GC to prove her legal status in US.
If all fails then she can always fly to Switzerland without any visa and go to Germany from there. Just a thought.
 
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Punjabi_Munda said:
Want,
One thing you can try is send her NP and Notorized copy of her GC to a different consulate if possible. Every time you call an Embassy with a question, I don't why but seems like we run into more smart ass people who are just there to find something wrong with your inquiry. I don't know why it would make a difference to them because in this case PP is just being used as an ID and she has GC to prove her legal status in US.
If all fails then she can always fly to Switzerland without any visa and go to Germany from there. Just a thought.

Thanks PM. the German Immigration officer scared her a lot saying that "you are against U.S Law" and blah blah. She is scared that if she can become a U.S Citizen or not...she is about to apply in December this year...

And since the german officer denied her, don't you thikn he put something in the database and other schegen embassies will know when she shows up??

Also Switzterland to Germany has police controls which require a valid visa to enter.
 
wantmygcnow said:
My sister who is a GC holder(through asylum) since 2003 renewed her NP since she wanted to travel to Germany and didn't want to wait for the stupid RTD.

The German embassy tells her that since she has been to germany before on a RTD, she is "breaking U.S Laws" by using her NP. To which she replied that she is a GC holder now and can use her NP to travel as instructed by USCIS help line. HOwever the stupid German maintained the same line.

Who is right in this matter? Any proof so that she can shove a memo at the German bastard?

The best thing I have found dealing with government agencies (german consulate is Govt. as well) is to give them least information they need. I mean do NOT lie to them, just don't volunteer information that they don't ask. Your sister could have applied for visa on NP quietly. And do not pay too much attention to these clerks answering the phones etc. either.
But anyway... her best bet is to ask to talk with supervisor and tell him that GC holders are not discriminated upon as GC holders and are allowed to travel with their NP's. She can also get in touch with German consulate in other city. If need is urgent then follow what punjabi has mentioned.

good luck
 
thankful said:
She is not expected to use np--this is in customary international refugee law.

I still don't get it. I know that we are not allowed to renew our NP, but it appears from your words that we are not supposed even to use our old NP? Mine is good for another 2 years and I was gonna use it in stead of RTD.
 
Wantmygcnow

All they have is her previous travel record and the document she used to enter Germany. They are just being a prick these days due to World Cup and scrutinizing way more than they should. Once she lands in Switzerland with her GC and PP she can travel via train to Germany. If someone checks her PP and GC on a train, he/she would not have computer in front to see if she ever entered before or what kind of travel document she has used in the past. It will be a lot different when she'll be entering from Switzerland. I don't think it should be an issue but that is just my personal opinion off course.
I wouldn't worry about getting her Citizenship application denied. USCIS is not going to ask for the Germany's opinion before they will approve your sister's naturaliztion application. If asked during the interview, she can always tell them that she renewed it becasue of the hassles that come with using the RTD (one year validity and cost) and she has not used it to go to COP anyway. There is no law prohibiting Asylees from renewing their passports. RTD is there because renewing PP is not an option for many Asylees.
 
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Eh?

With all due respect Prof., I am afraid that is a tad too assertive and does not have any basis under US law or international law. What "customary" international refugee law are you referring to?

There is no such requirement or clear-cut rule imposed on someone who has converted and adjusted to a new legal status (i.e. from a prior asylee/refugee status to that of a legal permanent resident) under any of the known sources of international law. Not under the applicable UN treaties (the 1951 Convention and the 1967 Protocol). Not in any decision of the International Court of Justice or any other adjudicative tribunal. Of course, no consistent "practice of states" doctrine can be inferred to even state that the community of nations have adopted a uniform standard. The absence of a clear standard under US law is evidence of this. Nor are there any significant international jurists that have established such principles (the so called "opinio iuris").

A legal text expounds that "customary international law results from a general and consistent practice of states followed out of a sense of legal obligation, so much so that it becomes custom. As such, it is not necessary for a country to sign a treaty for customary international law to apply. In other words, customary international law must be derived from a clear consensus among states, as exhibited both by widespread conduct and a discernible sense of obligation."

I am no international law guru, but I would be careful in throwing out legal assertions. If you can refute my arguments, let's hear it.

Cheerio

thankful said:
She is not expected to use np--this is in customary international refugee law.
 
You and I are probably the only persons on this forum who have read the Restatement (Third) of the Foreign Relations Law of the United States. Therefore I do not see any need to use strict definitions. I am using the word customary loosely. So does the USCIS. See the following exchange between the USCIS Arlington Asylum Office and interested CBOs (which took place in a bimonthly liason meeting in early 2003).

Policy Questions:

1. Subject: Revocation of asylum:

Question: What is the procedure for revoking someone's asylum grant? What is the time period between the re-interview and the decision? Is the person called in to receive the decision or is it mailed to them? If a decision to withdraw asylum is made, how does the immigrant contest this decision? Is there a notice of intent to revoke? Is there a motion to reconsider? Is the case referred to the immigration court? In how many such cases did ZAR revoke in 2003?

[questioner's name deleted]

RESPONSE:
Please see the attached for Section X of the Affirmative Asylum Procedures Manual which describes in detail the procedures for Termination of an Asylum Approval.

Termination proceedings can only be initiated after an Asylum Approval has been issued, and may be initiated even if the individual has adjusted his/her status to that of a lawful permanent resident (LPR). The asylum office does not have jurisdiction to terminate asylum granted by EOIR. Grounds for termination of an asylum grant are listed in 8 CFR 208.24.

The asylee is issued a Notice of Intent to Terminate (NOIT) listing the ground(s) for the intended termination and containing a summary of the evidence supporting the ground(s). To begin termination proceedings through the issuance of a Notice of Intent to Terminate (NOIT), the asylum office must have information that, on its face, indicates that asylum termination may be appropriate, but need not have the higher level of evidence required to terminate asylee status.


For termination proceedings which are conducted by the asylum office, the termination interview is set for at least 30 days after the date of mailing of the NOIT. The applicant may waive this 30-day period and request an earlier interview, or may waive the interview entirely and admit the allegations in the NOIT, in writing. A written waiver form is included as an attachment to the NOIT for this purpose.

The Service has the burden of establishing that a preponderance of the evidence supports termination. The nature of the termination interview is nonadversarial and need only explore issues relevant to termination of asylum. Following the termination interview, for those cases in which the AO makes a recommendation to terminate the individual’s asylum status based upon evidence presented, the applicant receives a “Notice of Termination of Asylum Status”. Regardless of whether the applicant is a Lawful Permanent Resident (LPR) or an asylee, after asylum status is terminated, the asylum office must place the individual before the Immigration Court.

The way in which the decision is served (Mail or Personal) is at the discretion of the Asylum Office Director.

An asylum office Director need only consider a motion to reopen or reconsider for a case that has received a Final Denial from an asylum office. Because referred cases have not received a final denial, they are not entitled to reconsideration.

NOTE: Termination of asylum status applies to the principal as well as all individuals who obtained derivative asylum status from the principal, whether granted as dependents on the I-589 or through an I-730 Refugee/Asylee Relative Petition.

Notes from meeting: If the Asylum Office terminates asylum for the principal, regardless of the
grounds for termination, asylum for all the derivatives is terminated as
well. However, It is possible that the Asylum Office might terminate one or more
derivatives based on their own firm resettlement and the principal would not
be affected because the principal established he/she was not firmly resettled.

2. Renewal of National Passport
We have received reports that your office is terminating the asylum status of LPRs who renewed their national passports upon adjustment under section 209. Please comment on the Service’s position on passport renewal by former asylees.
[name deleted]
RESPONSE
It is internationally accepted that a refugee who chooses to apply for or renew a passport from his country of alleged persecution is presumed to no longer need protection. The burden rests on the refugee to rebut that presumption. For an asylee who is now LPR, we do not have bright line rules with respect to passport renewal. The resolution of this issue depends on the specific circumstances of a case. Renewing one’s passport after adjustment of status, in the absence of a convincing explanation, could be evidence of fraud on the asylum application. The Service will review such cases carefully. This custom is followed internationally. The Service notes that an asylee who has adjusted to LPR status can continue to use a Refugee Travel Document.





TortFeasor said:
With all due respect Prof., I am afraid that is a tad too assertive and does not have any basis under US law or international law. What "customary" international refugee law are you referring to?

There is no such requirement or clear-cut rule imposed on someone who has converted and adjusted to a new legal status (i.e. from a prior asylee/refugee status to that of a legal permanent resident) under any of the known sources of international law. Not under the applicable UN treaties (the 1951 Convention and the 1967 Protocol). Not in any decision of the International Court of Justice or any other adjudicative tribunal. Of course, no consistent "practice of states" doctrine can be inferred to even state that the community of nations have adopted a uniform standard. The absence of a clear standard under US law is evidence of this. Nor are there any significant international jurists that have established such principles (the so called "opinio iuris").

A legal text expounds that "customary international law results from a general and consistent practice of states followed out of a sense of legal obligation, so much so that it becomes custom. As such, it is not necessary for a country to sign a treaty for customary international law to apply. In other words, customary international law must be derived from a clear consensus among states, as exhibited both by widespread conduct and a discernible sense of obligation."

I am no international law guru, but I would be careful in throwing out legal assertions. If you can refute my arguments, let's hear it.

Cheerio
 
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Not quite there yet

Thankful:

Unfortunately, you have not addressed the issue and the lengthy quote above has little or no relevance to the issue at hand. The question presented is not whether the INS may terminate LPR status after meeting its burden of showing (by a preponderance of the evidence) that the ORIGINAL asylum grant was not warranted. That is a given and no one is questioning that. Fraud at the time of the application may be a ground to terminate LPR status. This may even occur after one has acquired US citizenship.

The question presented and which none of your lengthy article above, any "customary" international law or written rule or regulation of the INS has purported to conclusively establish is that an LPR's renewal of his/her NP, without more, is a prima facie evidence of fraud or a conclusive ground to revoke ones LPR status. The article above primarily explains the procedural aspects of a rescission action by the INS and does not in any way give us any definitive substantive grounds for why such action may be instituted. The only relevant part restates what we have said again and again - renewal of NP and even visit to COP may be defensible, and absent evidence of fraud in the original application, cannot by itself be a ground to result in status revocation. I think the following from your piece confirms that:

"For an asylee who is now LPR, we do not have bright line rules with respect to passport renewal [CANNOT BE CLEARER THAN THAT]. The resolution of this issue depends on the specific circumstances of a case [HOW MANY TIMES WAS THIS SAID ON THIS FORUM?]. Renewing one’s passport after adjustment of status, in the absence of a convincing explanation, could be [NOT "IS"] evidence of fraud on the asylum application."

By the way, for authentication purposes, can you cite or provide a link to the original document? Blue Book Style :)

Cheerio
 
I have never stated (today or at any other earlier time. Nor do I plan to do so in the future) that using national passport (or even visiting country of persecution) automatically equals a ground for termination of asylum. I never stated that this leads to a prima facie case. Asylum law is highly contexual and adjudicators engage in a holistic assesment of cases.

What I have sought to do is to dispel the erroneous belief that an adjustment approval offers an automatic shield from further scrutiny of one's asylum application. It does not. It depends powerfully on, among other things, the statements you made on your asylum application, the conditions in the country in question and the time elapted between the adjustment and the conduct being questioned (visiting two weeks after adjustment (which has happened) is dramatically different from visiting two years later).

Adjustment approval does not relieve one of control by the Asylum Office either. Although I can find no textual support for the USCIS position in either the INA or the CFR, they assert that they can still terminate the asylum of an adjusted person.
 
This is from USCIS handbook: http://www.uscis.gov/lpBin/lpext.dl...2/slb-47968?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm


(1) Changed country conditions.



(ii) If asylum status was granted on or after November 29, 1990, and the applicant can no longer demonstrate that he or she continues to be a refugee due to changed country conditions, the case should be referred to the asylum office for consideration of revocation of asylee status. However, officers should keep in mind the difficulty of establishing that a given applicant can no longer establish a well-founded fear of persecution solely because of changed country conditions. Despite vastly improved country conditions, other factors may indicate that the applicant continues to be a refugee. Such factors may include, but are not limited to, severe persecution in the past or the continued possibility of localized persecution. Factors which, taken together with improved country conditions, may indicate that the applicant no longer continues to be a refugee, include, but are not limited to:



(A) voluntary return to the country of alleged persecution;



(B) application for and/or receipt of a national passport, passport renewal, or entry permit issued by the country of alleged persecution, or other voluntarily re-acquisition of the nationality of that country; and



(C) application for and/or receipt of benefits from the country of alleged persecution.
 
wantmygcnow said:
This is from USCIS handbook: http://www.uscis.gov/lpBin/lpext.dl...2/slb-47968?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm


(1) Changed country conditions.



(ii) If asylum status was granted on or after November 29, 1990, and the applicant can no longer demonstrate that he or she continues to be a refugee due to changed country conditions, the case should be referred to the asylum office for consideration of revocation of asylee status. However, officers should keep in mind the difficulty of establishing that a given applicant can no longer establish a well-founded fear of persecution solely because of changed country conditions. Despite vastly improved country conditions, other factors may indicate that the applicant continues to be a refugee. Such factors may include, but are not limited to, severe persecution in the past or the continued possibility of localized persecution. Factors which, taken together with improved country conditions, may indicate that the applicant no longer continues to be a refugee, include, but are not limited to:



(A) voluntary return to the country of alleged persecution;



(B) application for and/or receipt of a national passport, passport renewal, or entry permit issued by the country of alleged persecution, or other voluntarily re-acquisition of the nationality of that country; and



(C) application for and/or receipt of benefits from the country of alleged persecution.


But it doesn't say that we cannot use our NP for travelling if it's still valid.
 
My experience with Belgium consulate in LA

I applied for a Schengan visa in May through the Belgium consulate in Los Angeles. I brought both my passport and RTD.

I was planning to use my RTD, since that was the document I used when applying for the same type of visa last time in 2004. I was told that it would take 2 weeks using RTD. The consular officer, after learning that I have green card, asked whether I have a passport. I said yes, and she told me that using my passport would take only a few days. So that was what I used. And I am now in Europe.

This shows that at least in the Belgium consulate in LA, they don't share the view of the Germany embassy.
 
Not on point

Your Honor:

The referenced document/section does not relate to the issue at hand: consequences of renewal of NP after the adjustment of status. The manual merely explains factors and processes used to make a decision to adjust from an asylee/refugee status to that of a LPR. As practice shows, the INS rarely undertakes such inquiry even at the adjustment phase. Selective posting of unrelated text will not carry the day but only help in confusing the issues.

Cheerio


wantmygcnow said:
This is from USCIS handbook: http://www.uscis.gov/lpBin/lpext.dl...2/slb-47968?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm


(1) Changed country conditions.



(ii) If asylum status was granted on or after November 29, 1990, and the applicant can no longer demonstrate that he or she continues to be a refugee due to changed country conditions, the case should be referred to the asylum office for consideration of revocation of asylee status. However, officers should keep in mind the difficulty of establishing that a given applicant can no longer establish a well-founded fear of persecution solely because of changed country conditions. Despite vastly improved country conditions, other factors may indicate that the applicant continues to be a refugee. Such factors may include, but are not limited to, severe persecution in the past or the continued possibility of localized persecution. Factors which, taken together with improved country conditions, may indicate that the applicant no longer continues to be a refugee, include, but are not limited to:



(A) voluntary return to the country of alleged persecution;



(B) application for and/or receipt of a national passport, passport renewal, or entry permit issued by the country of alleged persecution, or other voluntarily re-acquisition of the nationality of that country; and



(C) application for and/or receipt of benefits from the country of alleged persecution.
 
wantmygcnow said:
My sister who is a GC holder(through asylum) since 2003 renewed her NP since she wanted to travel to Germany and didn't want to wait for the stupid RTD.

The German embassy tells her that since she has been to germany before on a RTD, she is "breaking U.S Laws" by using her NP. To which she replied that she is a GC holder now and can use her NP to travel as instructed by USCIS help line. HOwever the stupid German maintained the same line.

Who is right in this matter? Any proof so that she can shove a memo at the German bastard?
I am not sure but since when German goverment is enforcing US Laws , if anything enforce international laws and german
I saw something similar printed in Taipei International Airport , that the airline people have the right to withold your passport until you arrive to US soil and then you have to speak to an us immigration officer , like you werent gona speak to them anyways ,
The printout was one of them USCIS release that they release from time to time
 
pvlaca said:
I applied for a Schengan visa in May through the Belgium consulate in Los Angeles. I brought both my passport and RTD.

I was planning to use my RTD, since that was the document I used when applying for the same type of visa last time in 2004. I was told that it would take 2 weeks using RTD. The consular officer, after learning that I have green card, asked whether I have a passport. I said yes, and she told me that using my passport would take only a few days. So that was what I used. And I am now in Europe.

This shows that at least in the Belgium consulate in LA, they don't share the view of the Germany embassy.


Comrade,

They are treating you differently because of your "uncle." Everybody cowers before the all mighty Chinese government. :rolleyes:
 
comcast said:
Comrade,

They are treating you differently because of your "uncle." Everybody cowers before the all mighty Chinese government. :rolleyes:

Comcast:

I have been ignoring you since you often use this forum as a forum for your personal vendetta.

You can roll your eyes all you want until they fall off. Please fuck off.
 
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