Citizenship interview - Missing re-entry permit

[leon17]

My wife and I applied for US Citizenship in 11/2010 and we had our interview today. I passed the interview, but for my wife, IO gave a status "A final decision has not yet been made" and the reason was because they couldn't locate one of her re-entry permits from 12 years back (and this was the first issue that the IO brought up during the interview). Before we went for the interview, she wasn't notified about the missing document, so this was a complete surprise for her, since she thought the re-entry permit was handed over at the immigration counter at the airport(there is a US immigration stamp on her passport when she re-entered US).

To give a little background, she has been on green card for 14 years. She got her green card based on family visa. When she got her green card, she was still in college and hence chose to get re-entry permit twice until she finished college. She came to US twice (i.e. every 2 years) in that 4 year period and got the re-entry permit each time. She got the last re-entry permit 12 years back (that permitted her to stay out of the country for 2 years) and came to US 10 years back (within the tome-period of the re-entry permit) and since then never left the country for more than 6 months. Unfortunately she didn't have any copy of the re-entry permit that was issued and according to the IO, they could find one of her re-entry permit, but couldn't find the other one. We couldn't find the re-entry permit or copy among any documents we have, since that is typically handed at the airport (based on what I understand).

It is surprising that USCIS didn't have any records of issuing a re-entry permit, since there were no issues 10 years back in readmitting her after those 2 years of absence. There is a re-entry seal in her passport from US immigration at that time. She renewed her GC 4 years back and there were no issues at that time.

We are not sure what should be done next. Is there any way to get copies of re-entry permit from somewhere?

PS:- Her sister went through the same process and had to get re-entry permit twice for the same reason and recently got her citizenship without any issues. It looks like she still has the last re-entry permit with her(i.e. it wasn't collected at the airport, when she entered US the last time using re-entry permit), but it looks like her IO didn't ask anything about the missing re-entry permit.

 

[Jackolantern]

It's probably not the missing reentry permit itself that caused the problem. Their inability to find the reentry permit in their file makes them think there are other parts of her file that are missing, so they want to try to locate the rest of her file before making a decision.

 

[baikal3]

My wife and I applied for US Citizenship in 11/2010 and we had our interview today. I passed the interview, but for my wife, IO gave a status "A final decision has not yet been made" and the reason was because they couldn't locate one of her re-entry permits from 12 years back (and this was the first issue that the IO brought up during the interview). Before we went for the interview, she was notified about the missing document, so this was a complete surprise for her, since she thought the re-entry permit was handed over at the immigration counter at the airport(there is a US immigration stamp on her passport when she re-entered US).

To give a little background, she has been on green card for 14 years. She got her green card based on family visa. When she got her green card, she was still in college and hence chose to get re-entry permit twice until she finished college. She came to US twice (i.e. every 2 years) in that 4 year period and got the re-entry permit each time. She got the last re-entry permit 12 years back (that permitted her to stay out of the country for 2 years) and came to US 10 years back (within the tome-period of the re-entry permit) and since then never left the country for more than 6 months. Unfortunately she didn't have any copy of the re-entry permit that was issued and according to the IO, they could find one of her re-entry permit, but couldn't find the other one. We couldn't find the re-entry permit or copy among any documents we have, since that is typically handed at the airport (based on what I understand).

It is surprising that USCIS didn't have any records of issuing a re-entry permit, since there were no issues 10 years back in readmitting her after those 2 years of absence. There is a re-entry seal in her passport from US immigration at that time. She renewed her GC 4 years back and there were no issues at that time.

We are not sure what should be done next. Is there any way to get copies of re-entry permit from somewhere?

PS:- Her sister went through the same process and had to get re-entry permit twice for the same reason and recently got her citizenship without any issues. It looks like she still has the last re-entry permit with her(i.e. it wasn't collected at the airport, when she entered US the last time using re-entry permit), but it looks like her IO didn't ask anything about the missing re-entry permit.

A couple of quick comments: a reentry permit is never and has never been taken away/collected/handed over at the airport.
At the most, a CBP agent at the airport will put a stamp in the reentry permit, but they would never take it away.

Most likely the IO was trying to determine if your wife was legally allowed back in the U.S. and suspects that she just got back in the U.S. using a green card after more than a year absence.

Personally, I find it almost impossible to imagine that, if a reentry permit was actually issued, the USCIS would have no record of it. In the A-file there would have to be a record of the application being submitted, a copy of the receipt notice and of the approval notice - all these actions leave a paper trail and can't simply disappear.

 

[leon17]

Well, she came back with her family the second time and they all had re-entry permits and her sister already got citizenship recently. So I find it hard to believe only one of them didn't have a re-entry permit. Her father got re-entry permit at least twice since then without any issues (i.e. a total of 4 times in 15 years).

Also, I thought you had to get a new re-entry permit each time (I have never got one, but that is what I found from other immigration sites)

Based on your response, it sounds like probably the agent at the airport failed to admit her on the basis of re-entry permit, though she had one, while others may have been admitted on the basis of a re-entry permit. He may have admitted her on the basis of greencard, but there is no way for her to know that (especially after a 15 hr flight). She said she presented all the documents to the agent at the airport, but doesn't recall getting the re-entry permit back.

Also when her GC was renewed 4 years back, neither of us recall any similar issues coming up.In the last 10 years, she has been out of the country for a total of less than 6 months.

So what should be the next step, how can we track down the re-entry permit? Is there any way to request this from USCIS? (As you said, it should be tied to her A#)

Also I am curious as to why this issue of missing document was not raised before the interview. Both of us were asked to bring only the Driver's licence based on the yellow letter. They could have asked her to bring her re-entry permit, if they felt it was missing in their records.

 

[baikal3]

Also, I thought you had to get a new re-entry permit each time (I have never got one, but that is what I found from other immigration sites)

No. A reentry permit is like a passport (and looks similar), and is intended to be a multiple entry use document. In fact it can be used instead of a passport by stateless persons and people who for some other reason do not have a national passport. Most countries (with a few exceptions) will issue visas in a reentry permit.

On other other hand, in terms of using a reentry permit for re-entries after absences lasting longer than a year, a given reentry permit can be used at most once for that purpose, since a single reentry permit is issued with the validity period of 2 years.

Based on your response, it sounds like probably the agent at the airport failed to admit her on the basis of re-entry permit, though she had one, while others may have been admitted on the basis of a re-entry permit. He may have admitted her on the basis of greencard, but there is no way for her to know that (especially after a 15 hr flight).

I don't think that's it. It is doubtful that the IO had any CBP records at all - they are not normally a part of the A-file. It is simply the case that the IO had a record in the file about INS having issued one reentry permit but not the other.

She said she presented all the documents to the agent at the airport, but doesn't recall getting the re-entry permit back.

Whether she recalls it or not, it is simply impossible that the CBP agent took away the reentry permit. This is simply never done, just as they never take away your passport when you enter the U.S.

They could have asked her to bring her re-entry permit, if they felt it was missing in their records.

The standard interview check-list that comes together with the interview letter asks to bring to the interview all the reentry permits that were ever issued to the applicant.

So what should be the next step, how can we track down the re-entry permit? Is there any way to request this from USCIS? (As you said, it should be tied to her A#)

Try to find some records related to the issuance of that permit. Apart from the permit itself, there would have been a receipt notice that came first, containing the case number. Maybe your wife kept a copy of it (she really should have). Perhaps she could find a copy of the check used to pay the application fee or at least some bank record related to that transaction.

(Personally, I have multiple copies of every single document I have ever received from INS/USCIS from the moment I came to the U.S. about 20 years ago as a student.)

She could also file a FOIA/PA request with the CBP and request a copy of all of their records related to her travel in and out of the U.S.
I think they keep electronic records going back to around 1996. Although I doubt it, it is possible that there may be something relevant in the CBP records.

Sometimes it does happen that a person's A-file gets separated into several parts that USCIS has in different places. It is possible that for some reason this happened in your wife's case and that the info about the other reentry permit is contained in a part of the A-file that is separated from the main one. The IO is most likely trying to determine now if that is the case and trying to find out if there are parts of the A-file that need to be unified with the main one. That could take a while and I am not sure you can do much about it other than making some standard inquiries. But really your best chance is to try to find something related to that reentry permit in your wife's own records.

 

[leon17]

The standard interview checklist does not mention anything about re-entry permit. It asked for GC and Passport. Then a separate yellow letter asked for Driver's licence and another white letter stated that there is no need to bring documentation for traffic fines less than $500. I checked with my sister-in-law who had her interview in the last 6 months and she didn't take her re-entry permit (as her interview list didn't mention that) with her and she wasn't asked about that either.

According to my wife, the first re-entry permit was sent back to USCIS while applying for the second re-entry permit, but she is not sure what happened to the second one. Since the greencard was renewed 4 years back, I am not sure if we kept all those old records.

We checked the passport and re-entry permit is noted only for the first entry which is why I think this may have been an error by the agent at the airport immigration, though there is a stamp for the second entry. They may have admitted her on the basis of greencard instead of re-entry permit and failed to note the presence of re-entry permit. If she didn't have re-entry permit, how can they admit her back after two years of absence? So my guess is that the agent somehow failed to make an entry somewhere about this re-entry permit which is causing the issue.

BTW, what is CBP?

 

[baikal3]

The standard interview checklist does not mention anything about re-entry permit.

Perhaps something has changed, but I still have my interview document checklist, form N-659
(a pdf copy of the checklist is available online, http://www.visajourney.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1383&pid=10881#top_display_media)

In item 1 it says:
"*All passports and travel documents (including expired and current) issued to be by any government."

That includes re-entry permits, since they are travel documents issued by the U.S. government.

According to my wife, the first re-entry permit was sent back to USCIS while applying for the second re-entry permit, but she is not sure what happened to the second one. Since the greencard was renewed 4 years back, I am not sure if we kept all those old records.

Look harder, maybe she did keep some records. Like I said, finding something in your records is your best chance in moving your case forward.

We checked the passport and re-entry permit is noted only for the first entry which is why I think this may have been an error by the agent at the airport immigration, though there is a stamp for the second entry. They may have admitted her on the basis of greencard instead of re-entry permit and failed to note the presence of re-entry permit. If she didn't have re-entry permit, how can they admit her back after two years of absence? So my guess is that the agent somehow failed to make an entry somewhere about this re-entry permit which is causing the issue.

No, like I said, that is not it.

CBP (which stands for "Customs and Border Protection") records are not a part of an A-file, although USCIS can get those records if it really wants to. At the interview, there would not have been any CBP records in your wife's file (related to any of her travels, using the first or the second reentry permit or any of the subsequent travel).

Until some time after 9/11, CBP was much less stringent than now in its admission practices and they could have allowed somebody to reenter the U.S. by simply presenting a green card without checking if the person had been abroad for more than a year.

By the way, I am not sure that even now whether the CBP record for a particular entry would necessarily show if the person was in possession of a reentry permit at the time of admission. They would always record the person's A-number and record that he/she was being admitted as a permanent resident (which is the status in which a GC holder is being admitted whether or not they have a reentry permit).
Still, like I said, your wife could file a FOI/PA request with the CBP, see https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/de...-of-my-travel-in-and-out-of-the-united-states , to get a complete copy of their records related to her entering/exiting the U.S. There is a chance that there would be some info about that reentry permit there.

 

[Jackolantern]

A missing reentry permit from 12 years ago is by itself irrelevant to her current case. Even if your wife finds the actual permit and presents it to USCIS, that's still not going to solve the problem ... which is that the permit being missing from her A-file indicates that her A-file got divided up and they want to find the rest of the file before making a decision.

They're probably not going to find it anytime soon, so be prepared for 1447(b).

 

[baikal3]

A missing reentry permit from 12 years ago is by itself irrelevant to her current case. Even if your wife finds the actual permit and presents it to USCIS, that's still not going to solve the problem ... which is that the permit being missing from her A-file indicates that her A-file got divided up and they want to find the rest of the file before making a decision.

They're probably not going to find it anytime soon, so be prepared for 1447(b).

It could be that missing parts of the A-file is not the only issue here. E.g. if the IO decides that the second reentry permit was never issued and that the OP's wife was admitted in the U.S. some 12 years ago improperly (after more than a year absence and w/o a reentry permit), they could make a fuss about that regarding, say, whether she actually maintained valid LPR status from that point on. Or they could simply claim that she lied in the N-400 and at the interview about having the second reentry permit being issued, and could try to make a good moral character issue out of it.

 

[chicagoboy77]

i thought you only need to show travels for the last 5 years not any thing beyond that?
i myslef got so many travel docs as an asylee but only keept the last one. My interview is on March so this is going to worry me till i get done with the interview. Is your sister in CHicago? i hope not cause this is where I will have my interview

 

[baikal3]

i thought you only need to show travels for the last 5 years not any thing beyond that?
i myslef got so many travel docs as an asylee but only keept the last one. My interview is on March so this is going to worry me till i get done with the interview. Is your sister in CHicago? i hope not cause this is where I will have my interview

N-400 asks you to list all trips abroad since becoming an LPR, not just those for the last 5 years. Of course, only the trips for the last 5 years are relevant to determining if the applicant satisfies the continuous residency and physical presence requirements for the statutory period, so they mostly look at those trips.

However, under some circumstances they can look at the older trips as well. E.g. in this case the absence of a record in the A-file regarding the second reentry permit indicates that the A-file is likely incomplete and some parts of it are located elsewhere. The IO will generally not approve the case until the entire A-file is unified. However, this is a rather particular and unusual set of circumstances. So in all likelihood your trips older than 5 years won't be particularly looked at, although you still need to list them. By the way, I doubt that it has anything to do with the specific field office, something like that could happen at any office.

 

[leon17]

Per my sister-in-law, she didn't bother to list any trips earlier than 5 years(she didn't leave the country in the last 5 years). She also had two re-entry permits like my wife. According to her, the first re-entry permit was taken at the airport immigration, since there were only very few days left on that permit. She has the second re-entry permit, but didn't take it to the interview and they didn't ask anything about that. Infact the IO told her that her application was very easy to adjudicate since there were no trips in the last 5 years. My guess is that none of the re-entry permits showed up in her file, because the re-entry permit collected at the airport never made it to the file (just like my wife's). Otherwise, they should have enquired about the other re-entry permit (unless they had no records of her trips or re-entry permits in the system)

So it looks like airport immigration does take the re-entry permit (confirmed by my father-in-law also) and it doesn't look like it goes to the right place after that.

JakeOlantern,
I think you may be right, USCIS may not be able to retrieve the information from their computer system (may be it is archived or purged) and probably they need that re-entry permit to finalize the paper trail, since she listed those two trips.

My wife also said that they asked her to sign Part13 and Part 14 of her application (signature at interview and oath of allegiance). Is that nornal to sign those if the decision is not made?

Chicagoboy77,
My sister-in-law went to Chicago office and she didn't have any issues with re-entry permits.

 

[baikal3]

Per my sister-in-law, she didn't bother to list any trips earlier than 5 years(she didn't leave the country in the last 5 years). She also had two re-entry permits like my wife. According to her, the first re-entry permit was taken at the airport immigration, since there were only very few days left on that permit. She has the second re-entry permit, but didn't take it to the interview and they didn't ask anything about that. Infact the IO told her that her application was very easy to adjudicate since there were no trips in the last 5 years. My guess is that none of the re-entry permits showed up in her file, because the re-entry permit collected at the airport never made it to the file (just like my wife's). Otherwise, they should have enquired about the other re-entry permit (unless they had no records of her trips or re-entry permits in the system)

So it looks like airport immigration does take the re-entry permit (confirmed by my father-in-law also) and it doesn't look like it goes to the right place after that.

I find this extremely strange. It does not matter if there is one day or one hour of validity remaining on a reentry permit, the CBP agents should not take it away and this story shows that things go wrong if and when they do. USCIS asks that when you are applying for a new reentry permit to enclose the old one. You can't do that if somebody took the old reentry permit away. Moreover, a reentry permit often contains various arrival departure stamps (not just for the U.S.) as well as visas, and the alien may need this info for his/her records.
The CBP agents know all these things and they should know better than take away people's reentry permits - it is almost like taking away the alien's passport just because it is about to expire.
I had two reentry permits myself when I had a GC, and I had some visas issued in them when I had difficulties with renewing my Russian passport.

My wife also said that they asked her to sign Part13 and Part 14 of her application (signature at interview and oath of allegiance). Is that nornal to sign those if the decision is not made?

This is normal, all N-400 applicants have to do this, regardless of the interview's outcome.

Also it looks like there is no need to list any trips earlier than 5 years based on this experience. It was confirmed by a few other folks I talked to who applied after more than 10 years (not sure if they had re-entry permit). I know someone who applied after almost 25 years and they listed only the last 5 years.

Question C in part 7 of N-400 reads:
"List below all the trips of 24 hours or more that you have taken outside of the United States since becoming a lawful permanent resident".
There is no way to parse this question to mean that only the trips for the last 5 years. By signing the N-400 when submitting it and then again, in part 13, at the interview, the applicant swears under the penalties of perjury that all the answers are correct. Withholding information that is directly asked for in a specific question is lying. Some people may get away with it because the IOs are too sloppy to dig deeper but it is an extremely bad idea to derive from their experience the conclusion that it is OK to lie in response to a direct and unambiguously worded question in N-400. Stuff like that could later be used to revoke the person's naturalization.

 

[Jackolantern]

The CBP agents know all these things and they should know better than take away people's reentry permits - it is almost like taking away the alien's passport just because it is about to expire.

It certainly wouldn't be the only time an immigration officer did something they were not supposed to do.

There was another thread where after a long trip they took away the individual's passport in addition to taking away the green card and telling them to see an immigration judge. They didn't have authority to hold his passport but they did it anyway.

 

[leon17]

The CBP agents know all these things and they should know better than take away people's reentry permits - it is almost like taking away the alien's passport just because it is about to expire.

If the CBP agents/ IOs were following the laws they were trained on and the laws were so unambiguous, we won't be discussing so many cases in all these threads, will we?

I agree that you traveled on re-entry permit, but did you ever travel with a re-entry permit that was set to expire in a few days/weeks and without a return ticket? (i.e. no immediate plans to travel anywhere). Re-entry permits states that it is the property of USCIS, unlike passport which is yours.

Thanks for providing the CBP information, I am going to try that route to see if I can get any information from CBP to see if they can track down something on the re-entry permit, as we are unable to find anything on about the actual re-entry permit.

There is no way to parse this question to mean that only the trips for the last 5 years. By signing the N-400 when submitting it and then again, in part 13

I agree, but using a similar logic, I can say that every traffic ticket since you landed in US should be disclosed on the N-400, since a ticket is a citation. But there is a 100 page thread on that whole topic about all kind of responses from the IOs. If they are trained on the law, it should be applied the same way, right? Also with my sister-in-law, it looked like IO was interested only in the last 5 years trips. IO explicitly told her that it was easy to adjudicate, as there were no trips in the last 5 years.

What if you can not recall every traffic ticket, juts like you may not be able to recall every travel date if it is across multiple passports over 25 years? Just like someone I know with half a dozen tickets in as many years, but didn't bother to list any, as according to him, nothing showed up in his drivers record, so he wasn't going to waste his time tracking down that information.

 

[baikal3]

Using a similar logic, I can say that every traffic ticket since you landed in US should be disclosed on the N-400, since a ticket is a citation. But there is a 100 page thread on that whole topic about all kind of responses from the IOs. What if you can not recall every traffic ticket, juts like you may not be able to recall every travel date if it is across multiple passports? Just like someone I know with half a dozen tickets in as many years, but didn't bother to list any.

The situation is not exactly the same: with traffic tickets there is at least some room for doubt as to whether the word "cited" is meant to include traffic tickets or not. Be that as it may, IMO, one does need to disclose the traffic tickets, to the best of one's ability. You don't have to rely on memory - just order a copy of your driving record from the DMV, it goes fairly far back. If you don't have precise information, provide approximate info. But do not assume that you can simply disregard the question.

In the case with travel the plain meaning of the question is absolutely crystal clear, with no room for ambiguity or interpretation. It says
"List below all the trips of 24 hours or more that you have taken outside of the United States since becoming a lawful permanent resident".

That is what you must do, to the best of your ability. Provide approximate info if you do not have precise dates for some of the trips.
Disregarding this question or abridging the answer in the way you find convenient is a plain example of lying under oath. Don't do it and don't tell others to do it.

It is your obligation to answer the question, AS ASKED, as completely and as truthfully as you can. It is not your job to be the mind reader and to worry about how much info USCIS "really" needs. Your job is to answer the question as asked, and let the IO worry about the rest.

 

[leon17]

just order a copy of your driving record from the DMV, it goes fairly far back

Actually, if you have a lawyer take care of the tickets, none of them will appear in your driving record, but that doesn't mean you never got a ticket. It just means that you had a good lawyer who got the tickets out through plea bargain by converting speeding tickets to some other form of violation that results in 0 points and $100 fee for the lawyer.

Don't do it and don't tell others to do it.

I am not asking anyone to do it, but I am merely posing the question on how you will remember every trip for the last 15 years, if you made frequent trips.You can probably go back 5-6 years. But I am not asking anyone here to just list the travel for 5 years

In our case, we went through all our passports(including expired ones) to pull all the details with the exact dates, based on immigration stamps at the airport. Now, to me, if I present all the passports (including the expired ones, as they had asked for) with matching immigration stamps at the airport, that should be the end of story. Since CBP is also part of DHS which includes USCIS, they should be able to validate the travels by air and sea, as they have complete records.

Also my understanding is that, if you are out on a GC for an extended period, when you go back to US, even outside US, they verify re-entry permit. So it is almost impossible to travel and enter US without a re-entry permit (as I understood from my wife), if you were out for over a year.

 

[baikal3]

Actually, if you have a lawyer take care of the tickets, none of them will appear in your driving record, but that doesn't mean you never got a ticket. It just means that you had a good lawyer who got the tickets out through plea bargain by converting speeding tickets to some other form of violation that results in 0 points and $100 fee for the lawyer.

If you had a lawyer who handled your ticket(s), then it is even easier: the lawyer will have the relevant records in his file on you.

The bottom line, however, is that, from the point of view of the law, it is your problem, not USCIS', if answering a particular question on N-400 may be inconvenient or require some leg work and extra effort on your part. It does not give you the excuse to disregard a question or to answer it dishonestly.

By the way, apart from the DMV records, there are also the court records. If you remember where you got a ticket, you can get the details regarding it from the local county/city court.
That is what I did, for example, with a ticket that I got in NJ some 6 years before filing N-400 (by that time I already moved to Illinois). I contacted the clerk of the country court in NJ where I got the ticket and they provided me a court certified statement regarding the ticket and its eventual disposition. Most people do not have more than 2-3 tickets and it is possible to get the relevant records regarding them in this fashion, although it does take a bit of time and effort.

I am not asking anyone to do it, but I am merely posing the question on how you will remember every trip for the last 15 years, if you made frequent trips.

Well, some people, like myself, prepare in advance. When I got a GC, I knew that I'd be applying for naturalization 5 years later and I started keeping a file with a record of all my trips abroad, because I knew that this information would be required. I also travel quite a bit and I had to report something like 15 trips and needed an extra sheet of paper.

Apart from that, there are passport stamps, credit card statements, e-mail records etc, plus for older trips it is OK to give approximate info if you can't locate the precise dates.

Also, like I said, in my earlier post, it is possible to file a FOIA/PA request with the CBP and request all of their records regarding you entering/exiting the U.S. that they have in their files.

Your wife, by the way, should definitely do that.

Take a look at this link http://current.newsweek.com/budgettravel/2008/12/whats_in_your_government_trave.html
to see what a CBP record obtained via a FOIA/PA request looks like.

 

[Vorpal]

There is no need to disclose minor traffic tickets that didn't result in an arrest. See p. 60 of the document linked below:

http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/About Us... Guide/Permanent_Residents_Naturalization.pdf

This is an official document, directly from USCUS.gov.

 

[baikal3]

There is no need to disclose minor traffic tickets that didn't result in an arrest. See p. 60 of the document linked below:

http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/About Us... Guide/Permanent_Residents_Naturalization.pdf

This is an official document, directly from USCUS.gov.

Very interesting. I see that this document was produced at some point after May 2010, so it is fairly recent. I wish something like that were available when I was filing N-400, as it would have saved me quite a bit of work. Also, USCIS really needs to update N-400 instructions, since this is where most N-400 applicants will look for clarification of questions such as this one.

In any case, the traffic tickets issue is different from the issue of foreign trips; there N-400 very clearly asks to list all trips abroad since becoming an LPR, and there is really no room for interpretation as to the meaning of that request.