Birth certificate has a wrong birth place

[masematn]

Regularly BC states the real place of birth.

Yes, you are right - I forgot that we talk about my particular BC, not just any BC with different places of birth and registration.

Because that is outside of jurisdiction of Russia to state somebody was born in Ukraine.

Don't you think that it contradicts the 1969 Law?

It is like if you were born in New York state, but have a birth certificate issued in Massachusetts stating you were born in New York

I do not think it is possible to have such BC. If a child is born in New York, the only place where he can get a certificate is New York.

Even if you were born in the US, you could still register your birth in Russia at the place of your parent's residence.

You sure could, I don't see any problems with this. As I mentioned already at the other forum, I have an example from real life.

Russia could easily produce 130 mln. US citizens

Could it really? Come on, I thought we talk seriously. I assume you are not discussing any fraud scenarios? In such case, in order to "produce" 130 mln. US citizens Russia will have to issue 130 mln BC's with US as a place of birth, ok? To make this happen, some 100 mln Russian women must travel to US within a reasonable time - or you talk about centuries? I suggest a 100 mln considering twins, of course. I really do not see how it could be done practically
On the other note, you may be mixing paperwork with facts. Of course, Russian BC with US as a place of birth is not a proof of US citizenship for US authorities. What makes those BC holders citizens, is not a BC, but the fact of being born in US. And if they got such Russian BC (again, we talk legal!), they must have provided a hospital paperwork. If they were born in US and have such medical records, they will be recognized as US citizens regardless of having a Russian BC. Or would you say that they "forfeit" their US citizenship by getting a Russian BC?

 

[raevsky]

Don't you think that it contradicts the 1969 Law?

The 1969 law says only about the place of registration, not about the place of birth. I would guess, to make the law work correctly the place of birth should be sayd "unknown" on a BC like that.

I do not think it is possible to have such BC. If a child is born in New York, the only place where he can get a certificate is New York.

Because the US states understand the concept of jurisdiction.

You sure could, I don't see any problems with this. As I mentioned already at the other forum, I have an example from real life.

That person relied not on russian-issued BC, but on reliable proof of being born in US.

Could it really? Come on, I thought we talk seriously. I assume you are not discussing any fraud scenarios? In such case, in order to "produce" 130 mln. US citizens Russia will have to issue 130 mln BC's with US as a place of birth, ok? To make this happen, some 100 mln Russian women must travel to US within a reasonable time - or you talk about centuries? I suggest a 100 mln considering twins, of course. I really do not see how it could be done practically

That is easy without fraud. Russia makes a law - the place of birth in BC for everybody is US.

On the other note, you may be mixing paperwork with facts. Of course, Russian BC with US as a place of birth is not a proof of US citizenship for US authorities. What makes those BC holders citizens, is not a BC, but the fact of being born in US. And if they got such Russian BC (again, we talk legal!), they must have provided a hospital paperwork. If they were born in US and have such medical records, they will be recognized as US citizens regardless of having a Russian BC.

If a person was born in US (and have medical records), he or she could be issued a US birth certificate. Which is a proof of US citizenship.

Or would you say that they "forfeit" their US citizenship by getting a Russian BC?

No. Beacuse they will be able to obtain US birth certificate, in the same way as you are able to obtain ukrainian-issued one. If you do not do that, as that person does not get a US birth certificate, you will not be able to prove birth in Ukraine, as that person would not be able to get a proof of US citizenship. So, if the person does not get a US BC, he or she will not be able to prove US citizenship. And you will forfeit the right to get an immigrant visa.

 

[masematn]

Because the US states understand the concept of jurisdiction.

Are you implying that the former USSR did not understand it, including all those people who worked on the said law?

That person relied not on russian-issued BC, but on reliable proof of being born in US.

That's exactly my point - BC is not important when there is a reliable proof.

That is easy without fraud. Russia makes a law - the place of birth in BC for everybody is US.

This is even more fantastic than a trip of hundred millions of pregnant Russian women However, it will be a fraud, because in reality everybody was not born in US, no matter what is written in BCs. Russia can make such a law, but Russia cannot produce authentic US hospital paperwork for everybody.

If a person was born in US (and have medical records), he or she could be issued a US birth certificate. Which is a proof of US citizenship.

What is mostly important - not the only possible proof.

If [...] that person does not get a US birth certificate [...] that person would not be able to get a proof of US citizenship. So, if the person does not get a US BC, he or she will not be able to prove US citizenship.

Didn't you admit just a little earlier that some other reliable proof can exist? And how about Department of States instructions about letter of no record?

 

[raevsky]

Are you implying that the former USSR did not understand it, including all those people who worked on the said law?

Very likely.

That's exactly my point - BC is not important when there is a reliable proof.

My point is exactly opposite. In your case BC is the only reliable proof. In case you need to use any other proof, you first need to prove you asked for BC but were denied it. You, on the contrary', do not want to ask. So, you cannot obtain any kind of proof because you never requested BC.

This is even more fantastic than a trip of hundred millions of pregnant Russian women

Things like that happened a lot in the USSR.

However, it will be a fraud, because in reality everybody was not born in US, no matter what is written in BCs.

That is not fraud. Law cannot be fraud.

Russia can make such a law, but Russia cannot produce authentic US hospital paperwork for everybody.

I am just saying Russian-issed BC has zero weight as a proof of being born in the US. In the same way as Russian-issued BC has zero weight as a proof of being born in Ukraine.

 

[masematn]

In your case BC is the only reliable proof.

No, my only reliable proof is a document from Ukrainian hospital. We have been already discussing all these BC nuances long enough to be bored, but there is really nothing to talk about hospital records - it is dirt plain what they mean.

you cannot obtain any kind of proof because you never requested BC.

I am still convinced that a new Russian issued BC will work for me.

Law cannot be fraud.

Why not? If it is based on a trick or deception, it is still a fraud, for the larger world community, of course.

I am just saying Russian-issed BC has zero weight as a proof of being born in the US. In the same way as Russian-issued BC has zero weight as a proof of being born in Ukraine.

You are comparing different scenarios: in the first BC was issued for someone who was not born in a place written in it (and there is no authentic hospital proof, only a newly adopted law), while in the second it was issued for someone who was born in a place written in it (and there is an authentic hospital proof thereof). See the difference?

 

[raevsky]

We have been already discussing all these BC nuances long enough to be bored

When we had that discussion, it seemed to me you had a different point of view (from the one you have now).

I give up. This is none of my business. It is all yours.

 

[plus07]

Masematn, it would be great if you could post the outcome of your process as you go through the various stages. I am sure we'll learn a lot from it.

It seems that you're not taking this situation seriously - but that's your risk to take.

 

[masematn]

When we had that discussion, it seemed to me you had a different point of view (from the one you have now).

I looked at that thread again - it is Nikolaev-Leningrad, right? - but did not see any changes in my view. Since that time I've read a lot of legal stuff, and feel much more confident now. But never mind, even if my point of view changed, it is only to the best - it is a good example of how a personality grows, isn't it? And moving slightly off-topic, I have to confess that in fact I hardly have any fixed "points of view" at all Have you heard a funny story of an accountant who came to a job interview, and was asked: "How much is two by two?" And the guy answered: "And how much do you want it to be?" That is just about myself...

 

[masematn]

Masematn, it would be great if you could post the outcome of your process as you go through the various stages. I am sure we'll learn a lot from it.

No problem, I'll keep the forum posted. Although I am not so sure everybody will benefit from it.

It seems that you're not taking this situation seriously - but that's your risk to take.

I am not taking it too seriously, that's true. Sometimes when I see how much emotions come out of this piece of plastic (or LPR status if you wish), I really wonder what happened to all these folks. Am I missing something? A person will live where he wants to and belongs to regardless of the DV lottery. And if he doesn't live there (here) then he doesn't want it enough, or doesn't really belong to this place. I know that attitudes and feelings never compare, but if we express the GC value in a monetary way, it could be a good and reliable criterion. So why don't we start a poll: "How much are you ready to pay if US starts selling green cards?" Let me be the first to answer: I would pay $5000, and not a penny more!

 

[raevsky]

I thought so. I mean I thought you valued it very low, but I did no think SO low. I wonder if your wife's wishes are also included into that amount, or if it is just your own estimate, without taking into account her opinion.
BTW, you do not this amount of money to get Ukrainian-issued BC. Maybe just a couple of trips to Ukraine. That is less than $5K.

 

[masematn]

I thought so. I mean I thought you valued it very low, but I did no think SO low. I wonder if your wife's wishes are also included into that amount, or if it is just your own estimate, without taking into account her opinion.

My wife's wishes are to be with the family - which means me and the kids - no matter where we happen to be. Her opinion follows mine.

BTW, you do not this amount of money to get Ukrainian-issued BC. Maybe just a couple of trips to Ukraine. That is less than $5K.

There are two major problems here: I do not want my parents to make these trips - as I said, that would be way too much - and I cannot go myself right now, since my J-1 sticker expired a few years ago, and there is a chance that I will not get a new sticker (the KCC has received my forms already).

 

[raevsky]

Her opinion follows mine.

Regardless of what yours is?

and I cannot go myself right now

You can apply for AOS and get advance parole for multiple trips to Ukraine. Of course, you can apply only after October 1st and only when your number is published as becoming current soon. Still enough time to visit your native country-to-be, even though it takes some time to get advance parole.
Or you can switch gears and do CP. CP looks costly because of family members.

Or you can hire somebody in Ukraine (an attorney).

 

[masematn]

Regardless of what yours is?

Of course. Don't be mislead by how it sounds. Decision to marry is one of the most important decisions in life, and once all the questions are asked, and all the answers are received, and two people became one, there is no room left for contradicting opinions. We are obviously not talking about silly things like what kind of tortillas is better, corn or flour...

You can apply for AOS and get advance parole for multiple trips to Ukraine. Of course, you can apply only after October 1st and only when your number is published as becoming current soon. Still enough time to visit your native country-to-be, even though it takes some time to get advance parole.

My application must include the BC, and as for today it states Russia as a place of birth. I am afraid that I will not get an AP with such a disqualifying (from the DV lottery's perspective) application.

Or you can switch gears and do CP. CP looks costly because of family members.

Tickets are expensive, yes, processing cost is on the other hand smaller. But the main problem is my expired sticker. If something goes wrong and we do not get immigration visas in Moscow, we'll get stuck there I don't know for how long!

 

[raevsky]

Tickets are expensive, yes, processing cost is on the other hand smaller. But the main problem is my expired sticker. If something goes wrong and we do not get immigration visas in Moscow, we'll get stuck there I don't know for how long!

If something goes wrong with your AOS, you will have to leave as well. So, AOS is no better than CP.

I am afraid that I will not get an AP with such a disqualifying (from the DV lottery's perspective) application.

I do not see a point. You will get AP. Your country of eligibility could be your parent's native country or so. Do not worry about AP.

 

[masematn]

If something goes wrong with your AOS, you will have to leave as well. So, AOS is no better than CP.

Not until my DS-2019 expires. As long as I am a J-1 student in good standing, I do not have to leave unless I want to do so. And my studies require at least another three years

I do not see a point. You will get AP. Your country of eligibility could be your parent's native country or so. Do not worry about AP.

Now I am really confused. What do you mean by country of eligibility could be? In the entry I put Ukraine, my current BC has Russia, so there is already a discrepancy. Even if I try to make changes (through KCC?) to my DV file, and charge eligibility to my parents' country, my parents can not be of any help, because one of them was a resident of an ineligible country (Russia).

 

[raevsky]

Not until my DS-2019 expires. As long as I am a J-1 student in good standing, I do not have to leave unless I want to do so. And my studies require at least another three years

You will have to leave. If you appear at the AOS interview and are denied on whatever reason, you are asked right at the interview to sign voluntary departure; if you refuse, they start deportation procedures right at the interview.
If you do not appear at the interview, I still beleive they will start deportation procedures right after the end of DV-2008 program.

Now I am really confused. What do you mean by country of eligibility could be? In the entry I put Ukraine, my current BC has Russia, so there is already a discrepancy. Even if I try to make changes (through KCC?) to my DV file, and charge eligibility to my parents' country, my parents can not be of any help, because one of them was a resident of an ineligible country (Russia).

Adjudications for AP anf for AOS are separate decisions. There are a lot of exceptions to the general rule of chargeability. Only adjudicator for your AOS process could determine whether Ukraine could qualify as your country of eligibility or not. Adjudicator for your AP application cannot determine your application for AOS is frivolous, right because he cannot decide that without personal interview. Only during personal interview your aplication for AOS could be stated frivoluos. If it is not frivolous, you are entitled to AP.

I mean Ukraine could in fact very well be your country of eligibility. And without seeing you at an interview that could not be overturned.

 

[masematn]

You will have to leave. If you appear at the AOS interview and are denied on whatever reason, you are asked right at the interview to sign voluntary departure; if you refuse, they start deportation procedures right at the interview.

Nu, if it goes that far, and be that bad, I'll sign it, no problem. It is not deportation, after all. But as far as I know (and here is a big difference from CP, correct?), I will have a few months and will be able to hire an attorney to appeal District Director decision. But that is really an extreme scenario... About AP you are right, thanks for pointing out its separate from AOS nature. Maybe I am just looking for excuses because I hate crossing the ocean, I don't know. Anyway, there is some time ahead. And meanwhile the front yard needs to be mowed

 

[plus07]

You can apply for AOS and get advance parole for multiple trips to Ukraine.

And AOS application without a copy of a birth certificate is likely to result in an RFE, not an approved AP.

If he attaches a BC that says he was born in Russia and puts on the application that he was born in the Ukraine, he'll likely get an RFE.

If he attaches a BC that says he was born in Russia and puts on the application that he was born in Russia, he might get AP, but it'll make it extremely difficult to prove that he was born in the Ukraine later on. And it will expose him to a charge of lying to the USCIS on a form - we know what the penatly for that is.

You raised an important question at the beginning of the decision, but your points in the last several messages do not make sense.

 

[plus07]

I think one cannot tell people what to do. The best one can do is to provide the information they know and let people use their best judgment.

 

[plus07]

I am not taking it too seriously, that's true. Sometimes when I see how much emotions come out of this piece of plastic (or LPR status if you wish), I really wonder what happened to all these folks. Am I missing something? A person will live where he wants to and belongs to regardless of the DV lottery. And if he doesn't live there (here) then he doesn't want it enough, or doesn't really belong to this place.

I just had to respond to this.

You seem confused. You have a family and US citizen kids, and in your years here you've been treated like an American. So you feel like you "belong".

You are not an American. It won't matter how you "feel" and where you "belong". If USCIS doesn't give you permission to stay here, you'll have to leave.

The newspapers are full of stories of families where the kids are US citizens, and at some point many years ago (say 10) they felt like they "belonged" and didn't pay attention to immigration formalities. The parents are now getting deported, and the US citizens kids are staying with relatives, or moving to countries they never knew. This happens to people from all religions and continents. They appealed their decisions, hired lawyers, wrote to their congressmen, their senators introduced private bills on their behalf, and they contacted the media...

Don't become a statistic.