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2014 DV Australian winners

Emma I dont think you have to tell them what your long term plans are. You just will need to show that you can support yourself and are not at risk of becoming a public charge. Maybe you say youre thinking of working for a few years and then doing some more study, but I dont think you have to be that specific.

As a green card holder you are eligible to apply for student loans but its a different issue whether there are any credit criteria that you may not be able to meet (eg guarantors etc). http://studentaid.ed.gov/eligibility/non-us-citizens

The other consideration of course is whether this opportunity is worth taking on north of $150,000 in student debt vs getting your degree here (on HECS or whatever its called these days) and then trying to move over on an E3 or H1B etc.

Tough choice! But good luck :)


emma_ said:
I have a question regarding study- it's a bit of a dilemma I'm in and would appreciate any advice!

I'm currently finishing off my undergraduate degree (arts, majoring in English Lit- apparently a lot of us are writer-type people!) - wonderful degree but let's face it, not entirely useful.
I am pursuing 2015 graduate entry medicine here in Australia, just maintaining my GPA and sat the GAMSAT (7 hr long med admissions test) in September. This is obviously my plan if I don't get an interview/green card in the DVL.
If I am miraculously successful at both, I will have an extremely difficult decision to make.

As I am still passionate about studying medicine, my other option is to take up PR in the US (provided I am successful at interview) and attempt to gain admission into medical school over there (which is decidedly more difficult.)

In considering this, my question is, is this even doable? As far as financially, I know permanent residents can get the same government and private loans as citizens, however coming off the back of winning the greencard lottery I feel like they would be reluctant to just hand me over thousands of dollars for a medical education (and understandably so.)
I asked a couple of American friends if they thought taking out student loans would consider you a 'public charge'- they didn't believe so at all and actually seemed quite confident that I could easily take out loans, given the hefty interest rates etc
In the USA, university loans also cover housing and food etc, so that is essentially how I would have to support myself, as fitting in a job between classes would be difficult (at least one with enough hours to fully support myself.)

Considering this last point, how do you think I should approach this with the US consulate, at my interview?
I find it very hard to believe they would like it if I said, say, "I have X dollars to support myself until I get into medical school, and then I plan to take out hefty loans to support myself."

I don't want to be dishonest though....

I don't know. What do you guys think?
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typo said:
I haven't looked for DV-2013 data, not sure if it's out, and I'm speculating here, but if it's similar to DV-2012 then the 35,000 jump in selectees is a calculation to try and get 50,000 people (or 55,000 with that NACARA thing I haven't looked at) through again. Just opinion here, but knowing they've run the program since the early 90s I wouldn't imagine they'd now make a sudden shift in draw strategy that would make a disproportionate number of selectees not end up with interviews. Just speculation, and always trying to make things look like they work in my favour of course haha (I'm high 1000s).
Click to expand...

I don't have the numbers right now - and they have been posted on the board before - but what your above analysis is missing is the fact that there were a number of years in the early 2000s where most or all (depending on year) regions were still cut off by number at the end of the fiscal year. So there is certainly precedent for not ending up with an interview (not sure how you determine if it's "disproportionate") and that is also why every DV communication warns you that more selectees than available visas have been drawn and you might not be successful. My impression, and that of others, is that KCC have under-allotted for a number of years now and don't want that to happen again, and the only way to ensure that they fill the quota is to draw enough selectees so that demand will exceed supply.
 
Medical School

Hi Emma,

I really feel for you in your position - as post-graduate education in the US is the tops; but, if your intention is to complete a medical degree, the preferred answer seems to be - stay in Australia and do medicine here!

This is a knowledgeable reply (and, I would dearly like to go off-line and chat, to reassure you further.)

I hold advanced degrees from top-line Eastern State US Universities (read into that what you will) and know the education system well. In fact I am flying out this Saturday to supervise some work at my old University and will return in December. I will use that opportunity to test my advice further - and get back to you if there is any change.

The first issue you will face is the fierce competition to enter grad/med/law school in the US; such schools have the pick of all the top undergraduates.

Next, such undergraduates will almost certainly have completed a four-year bachelors degree including specialised subjects - it is called 'Pre-med'. I suspect you do not have that and, I am assuming that yours is a four-year degree as three-year bachelors degrees don't cut it in the US for grad/med/law school entry.

Let me suggest that you go to the Yale University web site and type in:

'Applying to Yale as an International Student'.

You will find there that they even advise International applicants for undergraduate degrees to think hard about applying if their long term intention is to study medicine. You might then like to look at the Yale Medical school's admission site and see what financial support students (including permanent residents) are expected to have from their parents - before applying for loans

My feeling is that, if you are good enough to enter an Australian medical school, you have the opportunity of a life-time to establish yourself in an amazing, wonderful profession; with extraordinary personal satisfaction. And Australian medical education is tops.

Go for it!








emma_ said:
I have a question regarding study- it's a bit of a dilemma I'm in and would appreciate any advice!

I'm currently finishing off my undergraduate degree (arts, majoring in English Lit- apparently a lot of us are writer-type people!) - wonderful degree but let's face it, not entirely useful.
I am pursuing 2015 graduate entry medicine here in Australia, just maintaining my GPA and sat the GAMSAT (7 hr long med admissions test) in September. This is obviously my plan if I don't get an interview/green card in the DVL.
If I am miraculously successful at both, I will have an extremely difficult decision to make.

As I am still passionate about studying medicine, my other option is to take up PR in the US (provided I am successful at interview) and attempt to gain admission into medical school over there (which is decidedly more difficult.)

In considering this, my question is, is this even doable? As far as financially, I know permanent residents can get the same government and private loans as citizens, however coming off the back of winning the greencard lottery I feel like they would be reluctant to just hand me over thousands of dollars for a medical education (and understandably so.)
I asked a couple of American friends if they thought taking out student loans would consider you a 'public charge'- they didn't believe so at all and actually seemed quite confident that I could easily take out loans, given the hefty interest rates etc
In the USA, university loans also cover housing and food etc, so that is essentially how I would have to support myself, as fitting in a job between classes would be difficult (at least one with enough hours to fully support myself.)

Considering this last point, how do you think I should approach this with the US consulate, at my interview?
I find it very hard to believe they would like it if I said, say, "I have X dollars to support myself until I get into medical school, and then I plan to take out hefty loans to support myself."

I don't want to be dishonest though....

I don't know. What do you guys think?
Click to expand...
 
SusieQQQ said:
I don't have the numbers right now - and they have been posted on the board before - but what your above analysis is missing is the fact that there were a number of years in the early 2000s where most or all (depending on year) regions were still cut off by number at the end of the fiscal year. So there is certainly precedent for not ending up with an interview (not sure how you determine if it's "disproportionate") and that is also why every DV communication warns you that more selectees than available visas have been drawn and you might not be successful. My impression, and that of others, is that KCC have under-allotted for a number of years now and don't want that to happen again, and the only way to ensure that they fill the quota is to draw enough selectees so that demand will exceed supply.
Click to expand...

DV-2002 DV-2003 DV-2004 DV-2005 DV-2006 DV-2007 DV-2008 DV-2009 DV-2010 DV-2011 DV-2012 DV-2013 DV-2014
Selectees 90,000 87,000 111,000 100,000 90,000 82,000 96,000 99,600 102,800 100,600 100,021 105,628 140,660
Visa Issuances / AOS ? 50,810 48,044 48,151 46,145 40,076 46,633 48,036 51,312 51,118 34,463 ? ?
Regions that didn't go CURRENT - AF, AS, EU AF, AS, EU, NA AF, AS, EU, NA, SA - - AF - - - - - ?

I had seen the precedents and do understand being a selectee isn't guarantee of an interview. Yeah I only thought about the 2012 redraw after I made that post, my bad. I still wasn't certain though that the redraw was the cause for the fall, but britsimon has me pretty convinced now with the CEAC data others have put together showing the number of visa issuances / AOS was up again for 2013.

So I'm not sure why there are 140,000 selectees this year. I guess it's just my belief that the number of selectees is always a careful determination that's made, maybe this year they have an improvement in, say, fraud detection or the way they vet civil docs. Yeah it's also possible that, say for example, there's new leadership with a new strategy where lots of selectees won't get interviews. But so many years where all regions have gone current shows that they haven't been single-minded about maxing out visa issuance in the past.

Maybe others can look into the CEAC data a bit more as we go along, but we'll all know by mid-July when the September visa numbers are known anyway right?! :)
 
typo said:
So I'm not sure why there are 140,000 selectees this year. I guess it's just my belief that the number of selectees is always a careful determination that's made, maybe this year they have an improvement in, say, fraud detection or the way they vet civil docs. Yeah it's also possible that, say for example, there's new leadership with a new strategy where lots of selectees won't get interviews. But so many years where all regions have gone current shows that they haven't been single-minded about maxing out visa issuance in the past.

Maybe others can look into the CEAC data a bit more as we go along, but we'll all know by mid-July when the September visa numbers are known anyway right?! :)
Click to expand...

Crikey, that is too much credit to give any government - and especially the American government. It looks to me more like a clumsy hammer to crack a nut.

However, If you read my comments in the NACARA thread you will see my "theory du jour" that we might see DV visas appreciably higher than the 50,000 - perhaps close to 55,000. That would go a long way to explain the reason for the massive increase in selectees this year. I really would love to see that!
 
IheartNY said:
Emma I dont think you have to tell them what your long term plans are. You just will need to show that you can support yourself and are not at risk of becoming a public charge. Maybe you say youre thinking of working for a few years and then doing some more study, but I dont think you have to be that specific.

As a green card holder you are eligible to apply for student loans but its a different issue whether there are any credit criteria that you may not be able to meet (eg guarantors etc). http://studentaid.ed.gov/eligibility/non-us-citizens

The other consideration of course is whether this opportunity is worth taking on north of $150,000 in student debt vs getting your degree here (on HECS or whatever its called these days) and then trying to move over on an E3 or H1B etc.

Tough choice! But good luck :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for your advice IheartNY!

That's a good point about not having to be too specific, the only problem with that is because I'm still a student I don't have a solid work history, certainly not in a career-job anyway, so I'm not too sure what they're going to think of my ability to get enough work to support myself. The only work I've really done, apart from a couple of retail jobs, is nannying, which incidentally I put down on my forms. Do you know if they are strict on what constitutes viable working opportunities?

I've read through the link you gave me, it's very useful. I'm slightly confused about the co-signer requirement though- I was under the impression you didn't need one if you were a US citizen or eligible non-citizen (which I would be) ... this is going to prove to be a problem. I don't have single person I could use as a cosigner!

Oh yes, that was my other consideration! Moving over after my medical training! It is fairly easy as a doctor to get a visa to work elsewhere, however the issue with that is by the time I'm finished my training I'm likely to be in a long-term relationship or marriage and that would put a second person into the equation- much more difficult to uproot oneself and start a whole new life...

Hmm, so much to think about!

CollingwoodRuck said:
Hi Emma,

I really feel for you in your position - as post-graduate education in the US is the tops; but, if your intention is to complete a medical degree, the preferred answer seems to be - stay in Australia and do medicine here!

This is a knowledgeable reply (and, I would dearly like to go off-line and chat, to reassure you further.)

I hold advanced degrees from top-line Eastern State US Universities (read into that what you will) and know the education system well. In fact I am flying out this Saturday to supervise some work at my old University and will return in December. I will use that opportunity to test my advice further - and get back to you if there is any change.

The first issue you will face is the fierce competition to enter grad/med/law school in the US; such schools have the pick of all the top undergraduates.

Next, such undergraduates will almost certainly have completed a four-year bachelors degree including specialised subjects - it is called 'Pre-med'. I suspect you do not have that and, I am assuming that yours is a four-year degree as three-year bachelors degrees don't cut it in the US for grad/med/law school entry.

Let me suggest that you go to the Yale University web site and type in:

'Applying to Yale as an International Student'.

You will find there that they even advise International applicants for undergraduate degrees to think hard about applying if their long term intention is to study medicine. You might then like to look at the Yale Medical school's admission site and see what financial support students (including permanent residents) are expected to have from their parents - before applying for loans

My feeling is that, if you are good enough to enter an Australian medical school, you have the opportunity of a life-time to establish yourself in an amazing, wonderful profession; with extraordinary personal satisfaction. And Australian medical education is tops.

Go for it!
Click to expand...

Wow thank you so much CollingwoodRuck! I really appreciate the time you've taken to help me:)

From what you said I'll take Harvard, Yale or Columbia as a reasonable bet :p
It's wonderful to have someone who knows the system so well to ask advice of!

Most people would agree with you that it would be far preferable to complete med here, and I know that would be the sensible option.
I'm enamoured of the college experience in the US however, and the opportunities you have to get involved in the highest level of research with the top people in the field (I have a particular field of interest that I am greatly passionate about.)
So that is incredibly seductive to me. All I've ever wanted was to study in the US! I actually took a course myself at Harvard over Winter 2011, and it was everything I imagined it to be.

Logistically, as you mentioned, far more competitive, so that's a big risk I'd be taking.
My degree is three years unfortunately, but I'm aware of the requirements and would be either doing an honours year, or preferably doing a pre-med certificate (which is a year-long course.) I'm not sure if the pre-med cert, which is offered at many universities and is designed specifically for graduates with no health/science undergrad, is considered a fourth year of university, or if I'd have to do an additional year of study and THEN do a pre-med cert.
It all seems vastly complex compared with just remaining in Australia to do it, but it would be an absolute dream come true for me if it were possible, so I'm not sure whether to take all these risks...!

Of course, the financial aspect is one of the biggest risks, and as I'm finding out it isn't simply being a permanent resident that allows you loans- as I said to IheartNY I was sure you only needed a cosigner if you weren't an eligible non-citizen (i.e. not a PR). With the parental support thing, do you know if it's okay that your parents are Australian/in Australia?

I might try and PM you, will have to figure that out though, haven't sent private messages on this forum as of yet!

Thanks again for your help, and have a great time O/S!
 
britsimon said:
Crikey, that is too much credit to give any government - and especially the American government. It looks to me more like a clumsy hammer to crack a nut.

However, If you read my comments in the NACARA thread you will see my "theory du jour" that we might see DV visas appreciably higher than the 50,000 - perhaps close to 55,000. That would go a long way to explain the reason for the massive increase in selectees this year. I really would love to see that!
Click to expand...

That NACARA explanation makes a bit of sense too, nice going.

Maybe you can see what I mean about selectees numbers on their own potentially being misleading though by just looking at 2003 and 2013:

  • DV-2003: 87,000 selectees and three regions not going current
  • DV-2013: 105,628 selectees (an 18,628 increase) but all regions going current
So maybe too early to draw conclusions about DV-2014 and 140,660 selectees?
 
I'm gonna break up all these confusing numbers with a little bit of self-gloating good news.

I just got my email from the consulate informing me that my visa has been posted to me. Like a couple of other guys had said, they did their interviews on Tuesday and got them back by Friday so that pretty much marries up.

This is a bit of a relief since I fly back to Denver on Sunday week! Cutting it close but a little brash confidence goes a long way I guess ;)
 
Hi Emma,

Yep, when I get back, let's see if we can work how to chat more privately.

I had a conference call this morning and brought up your dilemma; one of my colleagues is a Professor at the Medical School - and, yes, you have that right! Anyway, he was outspoken to the point of bluntness that you not give up the Australian opportunity. I will follow up next week with him in more detail. Given that he is on the Admissions Board, I take his counsel very seriously.

As I see it, if you stay in Australia, you will finish your three year bachelor's degree this year. Next year, you will - we hope - have the opportunity to commence a 4 year MBBS degree. You will then have to do a years internship and two years residency. Then you are on your way and you could head to the US to complete further research at, let's say, Harvard.
(OK, by now you may be in a long-term relationship and need to convince your partner to join you. You should expect that support. We went as a couple - with baby daughter. And the majority of the Australians at my University are both senior researchers in Medicine and married.)

The alternative is to continue into your honours year. Be aware, that the three US universities we are talking about all require First Class Honours from 'British Commonwealth' - type institutions. (Some others may take Second Class/Div one.) Next you need to come to the US to do one (and possibly two) years 'Pre-Med'. To enter Med school, you need lots of things including letters of recommendation for Pre-Med Advisory people; your selection of course must give you that too. Your also need your MCAT etc and you should check the typical cut-off scores that are all over the web to make sure you are in the ball-park. So then you pay your money and apply - knowing that less than half the applicants get in. Hmmmmmm
(A bird in the Hand!)

Let's say you get in. As a typical example, you might like to go to web and look at the Duke Medical School site financial aid office to see what happens next. In short, every US University employs the noble principle that money will not prevent an accepted applicant from studying. In practice, you will see that Duke advises that the 'whole family' needs to be involved in the decision - meaning that the whole family (both natural parents and any spouse) are going to have to (at least, part) fund you. Typically they will be required to send in seven years tax returns so that they level of support can be gauged. They may also have to be guarantors for loans. You asked me what happens if they are not in the US; I do know that they are still expected to contribute and may have to deposit money in escrow (That was noted on the Yale web site that I sent you too.) And you may also need federal loans - some of these are onerous. When you graduate, complete your internships and residency (also highly competitive) you'll have to start paying back the rather big loans ($200k is typical); it is not deferred like HECS. Double Hmmmmmmm.
(Double bird in the hand.)

I feel I'm jumping on you a bit hard; please understand that is not my intention. I am trying to point out what a wonderful opportunity you have here. And on that note, I'm afraid there is one other matter you have raised that I'd like to inject some realism into.

You say that you are 'enamoured of the college experience in the US'. Which I agree with whole heartedly; I love it and next week will be there cheering on the home team in person. But that is not what you will be looking at! I am sure that you know the difference between 'Columbia College' and 'Columbia University'. You will be in one of the professional schools which have little to do with the College. Indeed, the Medical schools are usually very remote from the rest of the University - unlike Australia. The reason for this is that in the US, the big university medical schools operate their own hospital which are placed with patient convenience in mind. Columbia's med school complex is many subway stations north of the University; Harvard's complex (brilliant though it is) is closer to MIT than the Harvard Yard; and Yale-New Haven is on the other side of the Interstate connector - the medical students at these three schools could not see the main campus with binoculars. Attending them would give you a great 'Medical experience', but it would not be a 'college experience'. Indeed, the University of NSW Medical school would give you a better one.

Again forgive me if I'm being rough. But you have a great life-changing opportunity in your hands which could slip away. In support, let me point out that in 2011, Australian had 683 selectees for DV Green Cards, but only 275 took out visas. In 2012, the figures were 900 and 292. In short the vast majority of successful Australian selectees pass up the offer of the Visa. They cannot all be misguided.

In the meantime, enjoy the oncoming great Australian summer; perhaps putting this dilemma on ice for a few weeks.

Best wishes
 
I remember seeing somewhere that one of our Aussie selectees heard another couple at their interview having to rely on work experience because they didn't have the 12 years of schooling.

Now all we need to prove that we have successfully completed 12 years of formal education is a senior certificate right ? I have reordered mine as I cannot find the one I know is hiding somewhere in the house.

Has everyone ordered their senior certificates?
 
mijoro said:
I remember seeing somewhere that one of our Aussie selectees heard another couple at their interview having to rely on work experience because they didn't have the 12 years of schooling.

Now all we need to prove that we have successfully completed 12 years of formal education is a senior certificate right ? I have reordered mine as I cannot find the one I know is hiding somewhere in the house.

Has everyone ordered their senior certificates?
Click to expand...

It isn't 12 years of education you have to prove. It is that your education is equivalent to a US high school education (which is 12 years) but that point is the point at which someone can enter a US university for a degree course.
 
So I would hope that 12 years in the Australian education system would be enough I am half way through a degree as well so I guess I should order those records as well.
 
mijoro said:
So I would hope that 12 years in the Australian education system would be enough I am half way through a degree as well so I guess I should order those records as well.
Click to expand...

OK - so that sounds like you were ok. Question, does a "senior certificate" meet the requirement to enter a University?
 
See I was sure the requirements were having successfully completed 12 years of formal education.
 
mijoro said:
See I was sure the requirements were having successfully completed 12 years of formal education.
Click to expand...

As britsimon says, it's 12 years equivalent to a US high school education that qualifies you for college entry. In most countries a 12-year school education is indeed the equivalent, but if for example it is 12 years leading to a vocational school leaving qualification then it won't be. But yours sounds fine. Fwiw where I come from the (acceptable to US) school-leaving qualification is also called a senior certificate.
 
Where does it state that it must be to the standard that qualifies you for college entry? While I don't doubt that different countries have different standards of education I am just curious as to where this info came from?
 
mijoro said:
Where does it state that it must be to the standard that qualifies you for college entry? While I don't doubt that different countries have different standards of education I am just curious as to where this info came from?
Click to expand...


That is the effect of their definition, not their definition. Their definition is what I said earlier - equivalent to a US high school education. That is the point at which an American kid could enter University.

The point is, where I come from (the UK) we enter school younger than many other countries (we start at age 4 or 5) and (at least up until this year) we could stop at age 16. So - we could have 12 years of formal education, but it would take someone from the UK a further 2 years of "college" to get to the point where we could enter a UK (or US) University. On that basis a Brit would have to have completed that extra two years - even though that could mean they have spent 13 or 14 years in education. So, years of attendance is not what matters it is that you are equivalent to a US High school education.
 
britsimon said:
That is the effect of their definition, not their definition. Their definition is what I said earlier - equivalent to a US high school education. That is the point at which an American kid could enter University.

The point is, where I come from (the UK) we enter school younger than many other countries (we start at age 4 or 5) and (at least up until this year) we could stop at age 16. So - we could have 12 years of formal education, but it would take someone from the UK a further 2 years of "college" to get to the point where we could enter a UK (or US) University. On that basis a Brit would have to have completed that extra two years - even though that could mean they have spent 13 or 14 years in education. So, years of attendance is not what matters it is that you are equivalent to a US High school education.
Click to expand...

Hmmm that's interesting. I see you are referring to what is the equivolent of a jnr pass. Yes we have that as well then if we continue on at high school for an additional 2 years we get our senior certificate, which is considered a high school diploma.
 
mijoro said:
Hmmm that's interesting. I see you are referring to what is the equivolent of a jnr pass. Yes we have that as well then if we continue on at high school for an additional 2 years we get our senior certificate, which is considered a high school diploma.
Click to expand...


Confusingly, we leave "high school" at 16. Then there is two years of college, and then on to 3 years of University (which is what the yanks call college!). The fact that out degrees can also be obtained in 3 years (versus the 4 of US universities) can also cause issues where degree education is needed (not DV obviously).

So anyway, yeah it sounds like senior certificate is what is needed...
 
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