Am I a US citizen?

Are you trying to split hairs here? US Nationals (only certain ones, by the way) are eligible to apply for a US passport by acts of Congress, and are in an entirely different class from Permanent Residents as far as passports are concerned.
Click to expand...
I just mentioned the original statement was totally wrong. Nothing more. Just that. Usually a person who wants others to listen to him seriousely, does not provide erroneous information. Not here, though.

Giovanni, again, do not listen to him and do not apply for a passport without having an official letter stating you're a US citizen. You should also be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that people should do things which are illegal (claiming to be a US citizen) just to get an answer to a simple question.
Click to expand...
Claiming to be a US citizen is not illegal. False claims to US citizenship are illegal, not claims to US citizenship.

Again, nowhere on DS-11 form you claim to be a US citizen (falsely or not). Even with a very conservative approach, nothing to worry about.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
raevsky said:
Claiming to be a US citizen is not illegal. False claims to US citizenship are illegal, not claims to US citizenship..
Click to expand...

I don't even know what this means, but applying for a passport is claiming to be a US citizen or national and that is false in the case of Giovanni unless he has proof otherwise.
 
That is possible too, but that is much longer timewise, and that is much more expensive. Also, CIS makes a lot of mistakes, while DOS does much less number of them.
 
raevsky said:
You are probably interested why I think he is not a US citizen. I do not see the event when he becomes US citizen. His mother's naturalization does not lead to his getting US citizenship, because she naturalized before 2001. Provided his father was alive at the moment she naturalized. If his father was not alive at that point, he is a US citizen.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's what I was interested. I agree that simply because his mother naturalized he didn't become a US citizen. I was thinking on the combination of being legally adopted by a US citizen, plus having her mother naturalize. That makes two US citizen parents before Giovanni turned 18 while being a permanent resident (Green Card), which before 2001 was the requirement to derive citizenship. On this light, do you still think Giovanni is not a US citizen? I am not claiming to be sure, the whole adoption thing is an area of which I don't know all the implications.
 
raevsky said:
You are probably interested why I think he is not a US citizen. I do not see the event when he becomes US citizen. His mother's naturalization does not lead to his getting US citizenship, because she naturalized before 2001. Provided his father was alive at the moment she naturalized. If his father was not alive at that point, he is a US citizen.
Click to expand...

The law prior to the Child Citizenship Act of 2000 (enacted in 2001) was that a child become a US Citizen if both parents naturalized (were US Citizens) prior to their 18 birthday and the child was admitted as a permanent resident. And since the poster in question was legally adopted by his US Citizen step-father, the man would be considered his "parent" for all legal purposes. Therefore, the moment his mother naturalized and provided he was still under 18 and was a permanent resident - he officially became a US Citizen.

However, I would go with being cautious and going in to talk to an immigration information officer via Infopass. If you have the opportunity to consult an attorney then that would be beneficial as well.
 
Before 2001 adoption did not mean much in terms of getting US citizenship. Adopted children of US citizens were not eligible to be US citizens.
 
And since the poster in question was legally adopted by his US Citizen step-father, the man would be considered his "parent" for all legal purposes
Click to expand...
The law was clear about biological parents, not adopted ones.
 
raevsky said:
Before 2001 adoption did not mean much in terms of getting US citizenship. Adopted children of US citizens were not eligible to be US citizens.
Click to expand...

Yes - but the parent would be legally recognized as such due to the adoption. This makes 1 US Citizen part automatically - then when his mother naturalized - that would make both parents citizens. This is the basis for the discussion and where the gray area emerges in this situation.
 
Yes - but the parent would be legally recognized as such due to the adoption.
Click to expand...
Not true.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86757.pdf

7 FAM 1131.3 Adoption Does Not Confer U.S. Citizenship
(TL:CON-68; 04-01-1998)
a. Adoption of an alien minor by an American does not confer U.S.
citizenship on the child. Adoption, however, is one way in which a U.S.
citizen father can legitimate his natural child born out of wedlock for
purposes of transmitting citizenship (see 7 FAM 1133.4-2 c(4)).
....
Click to expand...
 
From the same source -
This is often referred to as “fraud
by adoption”—a false claim to citizenship filed on behalf of a child by the
alleged biological parents, who, in fact, share no blood relationship with
the child and, therefore, could not confer citizenship on the child.
Click to expand...
Means adopted parents (even both) could not confer citizenship to the child until 2001.
 
raevsky,

I think they are talking here about acquired citizenship, not derivative citizenship. Giovanni is looking for derivative citizenship. It is likely or possible (according to an earlier link I posted that specifically mentioned adoption before 16 years of age) that Giovanni derived citizenship by virtue of him having a Green Card and both legal parents being US citizens. Again, I can still be wrong, all this area is pretty gray. I wouldn't doubt that if Giovanni goes to two lawyers and one Infopass he might end up getting conflicting answers. I don't want to get into a fight, but I think that either apply for a passport with perhaps explaining in a cover letter that he is not 100% sure of his claim to have the right to a passport. If a few months and four hundred and something dollars are not an obstacle he can go the N-600 route.

N-400 is also an option. I don't think it will be the first time USCIS naturalizes a citizen. I mean naturalizes someone who was already a citizen ;)
 
I don't even know what this means, but applying for a passport is claiming to be a US citizen or national and that is false in the case of Giovanni unless he has proof otherwise.
Click to expand...
Making a false claim is very much different from making a claim and being false. Also, falsely claiming to be a US citizen [classified as 212(a)(6)(a)(ii)] is very much different from falsely claiming to be a US citizen or national [cannot be classified as 212(a)(6)(a)(ii)]
 
that Giovanni derived citizenship by virtue of him having a Green Card and both legal parents being US citizens
Click to expand...
Contradicts to

This is often referred to as “fraud
by adoption”—a false claim to citizenship filed on behalf of a child by the
alleged biological parents, who, in fact, share no blood relationship with
the child and, therefore, could not confer citizenship on the child.
Click to expand...
 
raevsky said:
Also, falsely claiming to be a US citizen [classified as 212(a)(6)(a)(ii)] is very much different from falsely claiming to be a US citizen or national [cannot be classified as 212(a)(6)(a)(ii)]
Click to expand...


Falsely claiming to be a US citizen is very much different from falsely claiming to be a US citizen?

I give up.
 
raevsky,

Again, I think the examples you are giving refer to conferring citizenship by birth, but this is not the claim for Giovanni's case which is derivative citizenship. I would like to see examples of adoption and derivative citizenship :)

This link, that I provided earlier seems to indicate that adoption can be used for derivative citizenship prior to 2001 (and after 2001 too)

http://www.imminfo.com/resources/natschart3.html
 
An interesting case is it not? It's my great fear that whatever bureaucrat has my case come across his desk will find it too complicated and simply deny my N-400 and advise me to apply for citizenship like everyone else. Time and money wasted. Oh well. (Correction I mean N-600 )
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Giovanni2009 said:
An interesting case is it not? It's my great fear that whatever bureaucrat has my case come across his desk will find it too complicated and simply deny my N-400 and advise me to apply for citizenship like everyone else. Time and money wasted. Oh well.
Click to expand...

I guess you meant N-600. Yes, I would be a bit afraid too, the same way they have naturalized people who most likely were citizens they can make the mistake the other way. In that case you could appeal, but the help of a lawyer would then probably be very beneficial to be able to build the case with the relevant articles of the law. Anyway, good luck either with passport application or N-600 whichever route you choose.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top