Social engineering and USCIS customer support

[TheRealist]

I really can't see what a FBI namecheck has to do with frequent calling to the USCIS. I think that's a very far fetched theory and instills unnecessary fear into people.

Theory... yes. Far fetched? Hardly. It could be exactly the way it's been designed to work. We don't know either way for a fact. Look at it in this way:

i) The risk in not calling USCIS too often, or frivolously, is zero.

ii) The risk in calling them frequently could be an additional FBI name check(s).

Anyone would (and should) choose i), in my opinion. I am in no way hinting that the case would be denied for calling too often, but I defintitely am considering the likelihood of additional FBI name checks being ordered. Therefore all posts with first hand experiences are welcome.

 

[sudipto]

We all here are very frustraited and sometimes angry on USCIS... They clearly have an inefficient system that we all are so depend on. So sometimes we got carried away, and that is quite understandable. But...I just want to point out that care needs to be taken when talking over a recorded line. Anything you say can be used against you, and if they will be able to prove that you have lied to them, they might use it as legal grounds to deny your case... Just weight the risks before trying to sneak your way around their borders. It might not be worth it, afterall.

Just like everyone else here, I too am very disappointed by the inefficiencies of USCIS; however, at the same time I don't really think that the focus of USCIS is to be deliberately hostile towards applicants and find any and all means to deny their cases.

They just have a huge volume of cases to process and are traditionally not very efficient in what they do ... so the frustration increases on both the applicant's side as well as their side which may get reflected in how they handle certain calls.

Overall I must say that I am plesantly surprised by the politeness and courtsey most of the representatives on the phone has shown so far (with one or two notable exceptions, as I mentioned in another post recently)

 

[albertr]

I really doubt that they can order the namecheck (or any other background check, for that matter) at will of the Rep or even low-ranked IO... They have to pay processing fee, and I bet they have strict policies in that regards. Also, most probably it's automated process where the computer system generates a request.

Now, if you try to lie to them on the recorded line and do it intentionally and get unlucky to piss off the officer who has knowledge, time and dedication to press charges against you, you might find yourself in the world of pain. It's not easy, but still might be possible for them to deny your N400 and maybe even go as far as revoking your GC and deporting you...

 

[Vorpal]

ii) The risk in calling them frequently could be an additional FBI name check(s).

As I've already stated, why would they order another name check for someone who has already cleared theirs a couple of months ago? Even if their mentality is as idiotic as "He called us 3 times in a week, which means that he has to have committed a crime since his last name check, so let's run his name again", how exactly would this be beneficial to them? They will get the same exact results within 48 hours!!!

 

[Vorpal]

Just like everyone else here, I too am very disappointed by the inefficiencies of USCIS; however, at the same time I don't really think that the focus of USCIS is to be deliberately hostile towards applicants and find any and all means to deny their cases.

I don't know if I can agree with that. If they weren't out to deny as many cases as possible, they wouldn't be harassing applicants to provide proof of payment for $50 minor traffic offenses, something that does NOT need to be proven, as per the Naturalization Guide.

 

[Bobsmyth]

Theory... yes. Far fetched? Hardly. It could be exactly the way it's been designed to work. We don't know either way for a fact. Look at it in this way:

i) The risk in not calling USCIS too often, or frivolously, is zero.

ii) The risk in calling them frequently could be an additional FBI name check(s).

.

A theory based on groundless fear is a very weak theory at best. Do you honestly think they have a system in place that ties together the number of times you called about your application to the actual processing of your application? Think about it for a minute, it sounds more like a conspiracy theory or a plot to a Hollywood movie than something that is even close to plausible. What's next? We should all be prudent about what we say on this forum since the NSA may track all the information and forward it to the USCIS so that the IO can question you about during the interview?

 

[TheRealist]

I remember that a user named 'sudipto' had posted his recent call experience. He claimed that the IO/CSR called him 'stupid' and asked if he 'did not understand English' and whether he was a 'refugee or asylee'.

I will believe what Sudipto reported. Just think about it. What would have triggered someone from USCIS to use that language aganist an applicant? Frequent calling would be my first guess. (sudipto: This my guess, I do not intend to indict you. Sorry, please don't take it personal.)

Let me be clear: I am not supporting the Rep's response. It was 100% uncalled for, even if an applicant called 100 times in a week. But it did happen, right? And something must have triggered it. My point is- why piss someone off?

It's almost certain that USCIS keeps track of how many times a person calls. As for additional name checks, if they get plenty pissed, they might do just that! (Plausible theory)

 

[TheRealist]

A theory based on groundless fear is a very weak theory at best. Do you honestly think they have a system in place that ties together the number of times you called about your application to the actual processing of your application? Think about it for a minute, it sounds more like a conspiracy theory or a plot to a Hollywood movie than something that is even close to plausible. What's next? We should all be prudent about what we say on this forum since the NSA may track all the information and forward it to the USCIS so that the IO can question you about during the interview?

It's not like that the reps have to keep a pencil and paper handy to count our calls. Virtually all recent software has built-in counters. The IO/CSR does not have to do anything special. Merely accessing a record will increment the counter. These things are commonplace and have been in use for years. Any software that has an itsy-bitsy piece of auditing will also have this in it. I'm just speculating on the mechanism, and am welcoming first hand experiences. There is simply no question of groundless fear or even any fear at all. Why would there be?

My theory is limited specifically to an individual's N400 case record in a well-defined N400 database. The comparison you made with posting on this forum, Hollywood conspiracies etc. is what is far-fetched.

 

[thedeepsea]

I think that if the Customer Service line could track calls, They sure would inform the call of the last date and time they have called in. Running additional name check based on the frequency of a caller is crazy. Anyway when the IO ends the call they do say "if you have any additional question please call back"

 

[Bobsmyth]

It's not like that the reps have to keep a pencil and paper handy to count our calls. Virtually all recent software has built-in counters. The IO/CSR does not have to do anything special. Merely accessing a record will increment the counter. These things are commonplace and have been in use for years. Any software that has an itsy-bitsy piece of auditing will also have this in it. I'm just speculating on the mechanism, and am welcoming first hand experiences. There is simply no question of groundless fear or even any fear at all. Why would there be?

My theory is limited specifically to an individual's N400 case record in a well-defined N400 database. The comparison you made with posting on this forum, Hollywood conspiracies etc. is what is far-fetched.

I never disputed that they can't track the number of calls. What I am disputing is that they can somehow relate the number of calls to your actual application and use that against you in any way. That is what sounds so far -fetched.

 

[Bobsmyth]

I remember that a user named 'sudipto' had posted his recent call experience. He claimed that the IO/CSR called him 'stupid' and asked if he 'did not understand English' and whether he was a 'refugee or asylee'.

I will believe what Sudipto reported. Just think about it. What would have triggered someone from USCIS to use that language aganist an applicant? Frequent calling would be my first guess. (sudipto: This my guess, I do not intend to indict you. Sorry, please don't take it personal.)

Let me be clear: I am not supporting the Rep's response. It was 100% uncalled for, even if an applicant called 100 times in a week. But it did happen, right? And something must have triggered it. My point is- why piss someone off?

It's almost certain that USCIS keeps track of how many times a person calls. As for additional name checks, if they get plenty pissed, they might do just that! (Plausible theory)

I highly doubt that the USCIS adjudication process allows for a rude CSR (either by nature or by provocation) to be able to delay the name check process or an application in general. Now I can see your interviewing IO purposely delaying your case based on a grudge if he/she is inadequately trained in the adjudication process, or an IO requesting sexual favors in exchange for an benefit approval, something that was recently in the news. However, that is a very rare occurrence.

The increase in FBI name check delays has led to all kinds of wild theories as to what causes an application to get caught in the name check process instead of theorists looking at the facts and trying to understand the current flaws in the system.

 

[TheRealist]

I never disputed that they can't track the number of calls. What I am disputing is that they can somehow relate the number of calls to your actual application and use that against you in any way. That is what sounds so far -fetched.

Ok, so we are on the same book, if not on the same page.
If you provide them (either verbally or by keying in) your application/case number during the call, then they will automatically track the number of calls for your particular case. But if the phone calls stops short of you providing your case number, then they probably won't go the extra mile to trace your call etc.

None of the applicants knows enough about the namecheck. For every one person who is stuck, there are several others with closely similar profiles that flew through fast.

Again, even if they order an extra FBI name check, it would only be out of suspicion and not out of revenge. In an earlier post (different thread), I had given the example of a robber who got caught for being excessively curious. That was my point.

 

[nyc_naturalizer]

This is not a technologically sophisticated agency. Especially at the CSR level. Assuming you provide your CSR with your real case number, you're lucky if they even enter it in the system, let alone track it. I've had conversations with CSR's where it's clear that they are just making crap up or reading from a script, and did not even attempt to find a case. And if they do enter your number, in all likelihood it's on the USCIS website, so if there's any "tracking" going on, it would be no different than tracking you looking up your own case status.

There are over a million cases pending for N-400 alone. They do not have the resources to worry about which applicants are more curious than other applicants.

That said, decisions at this agency tend to come down to the personality and suspicions of an individual IO. It likely doesn't happen often, but I'm sure they could red flag an application on the basis of a conversation with the applicant if they wanted to. While you can probably talk to a CSR 10 times a day with no consequence, it is probably wise not to try to speak to an IO every day (there is always the possibility of getting the same one twice), or to push the limits of a particular conversation.

 

[Bobsmyth]

There definitely is a difference between calling USCIS 10 times a day to find out about your case or to call them and instigate them on every call and to calling USCIS once every few weeks to politely ask them for a case status from an IO.

The original point to this thread was to share my experience with others in how I got through to an IO, but it somehow ended up in an discussion about the fears and theories in how they track your call pattern and how that can potentially be used against you in case adjudication.

 

[coloradon400]

I think that the customer reps had instructions to transfer any case that does not show up online to an IO, that used to be easy and fast as most of us experienced. But, when people starting calling with false numbers i think they caught up on it and decided to give everyone a hard time.
Another thing, the first IO i spoke with told me to check back every 30 days or so on my case, which i think is normal since even if they mail the IL and it gets lost on the way you can still manage to get a copy and not miss the interview. Otherwise, there is no reason to call more frequently and i agree with TheRealist that they might have several options to annoy you like you are annoying them, (especially when asking the same question over and over again).

 

[samosa1]

Has anyone ever been challenged by an IO or CSR when the caller gave a 'fake' case # that did not show up?
Your true case # is 'TSC1234', but you tell them it's 'TSC5678', which does not show up on the tracking site. Then you get transferred to an IO. What if the IO, on noticing the difference between the two numbers, realized that you had lied to the previous CSR?

If so, how did you handle the call at that point? That's the kind of social engineering I'd love to hear about

Thanks.
Sammy

 

[sudipto]

I remember that a user named 'sudipto' had posted his recent call experience. He claimed that the IO/CSR called him 'stupid' and asked if he 'did not understand English' and whether he was a 'refugee or asylee'.

I will believe what Sudipto reported. Just think about it. What would have triggered someone from USCIS to use that language aganist an applicant? Frequent calling would be my first guess. (sudipto: This my guess, I do not intend to indict you. Sorry, please don't take it personal.)

Let me be clear: I am not supporting the Rep's response. It was 100% uncalled for, even if an applicant called 100 times in a week. But it did happen, right? And something must have triggered it. My point is- why piss someone off?

It's almost certain that USCIS keeps track of how many times a person calls. As for additional name checks, if they get plenty pissed, they might do just that! (Plausible theory)

Yes I indeed had the unfortunate experience of talking to this EXTREMELY rude IO ... but this was the only IO that was so rude out of the 5-6 others I spoke to over the last 2 months or so. Everyone else had been very polite and professional in their call handling.

Even with this rude IO, I did not get the feeling that she was annoyed by the number of times I called ... otherwise she would have clearly said so. The feeling I got that she either 1) was having a bad day and got off of another bad call -or- 2) is just a rude person by nature. We were also having some phone difficulties where her voice was initially coming in very faintly and I had a hard time hearing her.

Bottomline, while she was extremely rude and her action was completely uncalled for, I would not attribute that in any way shape or form to the frequency of my calling. In fact right after I hung up with her, I called back immediately and got another IO and this person was again very polite and coourteous.

So no, I still don't think USCIS is tracking your calls but if you DONT call very frequently you CAN'T possibly get into any trouble ... so everyone should make the call for themselves based on their tolerance for risk factors I personally like to take chances in life, so you can bet I will be calling again in a few days

 

[rick92]

RE: USCIS Infrastructure vs Customer Service

I really doubt they can track any calls coming from the applicant, because it must be case management system database that keeps track of very specific steps or processes that the file has taken inside the organization. Imagine, if the USCIS web site processing timelines does not have the capability, imagine how the people that work for USCIS must be suffering to get things done in proper time and in due care with respect to national security.

I am not trying to excuse anyone, but the fact remains that the US has had the technology to make USCIS as efficient as FEDEX and UPS or even better.

The question remains: Why hasn't it happened already? Is it a problem of money? Is it a problem of resources? Is it a problem of logistics? Is it a problem of designing the proper case management system (ex. FBI system that did not work)? Is it a problem of bureaucracy? Is it a problem of dependency (USCIS should be independent, not part of DHS)?

 

[Nimche]

I've decided to start a thread on experiences in calling USCIS customer support and how each call is handled differently or given different information.

Today 3/28 I called several times between 9:50am -10:30am EST by selecting options 1 (English)-2-6 and my call was answered by a (CSR) customer service representative who more or less asked me the following standard questions every time:

Is this for an application or a case ?
Is the application pending?
Is it for a naturalization case for military ?
Is this to schedule an appointment?
Is this for a request for evidence?
Is this for a I-90?
Where did you file your application?
What's your zip code (asked on 2 occasions to verify what local DO I am serviced by)


On the 1st attempt, the CSR told me that my case (PD 7/27) is within processing time since local DO processing time shows 5/12. When I asked CSR to transfer my call , he said he can't do that. When I told him they have done it many times in past, he said he doesn't know why they would have and still refused to transfer me. I thanked him and ended the call.

On the next attempt, I offered an earlier PD of 4/16 to see if that would trigger the CSR to transfer my call. Instead, the CSR told me that processing for DO is showing 5/12 and that I must wait 30 days between my PD date and posted processing time to make further inquiry. This agent also refused to transfer my call. I once again thanked the agent and ended the call.

On the next 2 attempts , the CSR offered to open a "outside normal service time " request to the local DO so that they may contact me with an update. Once again they refused to transfer my call. I did have them open one such request, thanked the CSR and ended the call.

On the next attempt, the CSR told me that I will be receiving an interview letter outside of normal business hours. I knew where the CSR was getting this information (straight off USCIS website) and asked them to confirm that I will or I may receive a interview letter outside of business hours. They CSR had to correct herself and said "may". This is the first time I've been told by a CSR that I will be receiving an interview letter with such certainty. I once again thanked the agent and ended the call.

On the 6th attempt, I finally was transfered by a CSR after she could not pull my reference number online. She never offered to open an "outside normal service time" request like the previous CSRs and without any hesitation transfered my call to an IO. I finally spoke with an IO who could tell me my application is in line for an interview.


This goes to show you that the USCIS CSRs don't follow the same procedure and that every call is handled differently. So for those of you who have had no luck speaking with an IO, keep trying again and again. Using social engineering with the CSR really does work for them to transfer your call to an IO.

Bobsmyth,
Thank you for sharing your experience. Be sure that will help me at least. It is an immigration problem's discussion forum I don't see the point why to argue the fact some people are in pain because how USCIS threats them. Whoever can relax, just sit back and relax. Makes me wonder why would they even read this forum if they are cool?
Everything anyone posts here has a reason and I am sure it benefits several other forum members, so if it doesn't relate to your problem and intrest, there is no pressure on you to say something.

Peace