Why are people fretting so much over going abroad?

robwoj

Registered Users (C)
I do not understand why are people so paranoid about going abroad for an extended time.

Following simple precautions is enough to keep the GC.

One can get a reentry permit where one can document reasons fr going abroad, then you just have to maintain ties to the US and an address which can be with a friend and you have to maintain intent to come back to the US (this is also easy - employment contract for 1 yr is ok).

So one can easily go for 2 years abroad and people have done it over and over again.

I am not a lawyer and thi sis not advice.
 
Yes.

If sb wants to keep the GC - then I assume the person wants to keep the GC because the person wants to live in the US. Otherwise why bother?

I do believe that even if the person really wants to move abroad but wants to keep his options open then they still can document things in such a way that nobody will be able to prove that the they wanted to move abroad. They can still keep property in the US, they can apply for reentry, keep ties, get a 1 year employment contract in home country etc. That's also the problem with measuring someone's intentions - people can hide what they think in their brain....:)

It is similar with employment. A person can have no intentions to work for the employer but do their 1-2 years service after getting GC and then quit. INS will not be able to deport the person even though they never had intentions to work indefinitely but for 1 or 2 years (intentions is what went on in their brain).

So if the person has a reason to go abroad for 2 years - then the person should follow a few precautions like reentry permit, ties and document somehow that the trip is temporary. I think one lawyer suggested to document that the trip is temporary when applying for reentry because this way the govt will agree on the reasoning when issuing.

I have not heard of a SINGLE case where a person had a valid reentry permit, did not commit crimes, had reasonable ties to the US and had his green card revoked.

I believe this is why the scrapped the whole intentions law in Canada.

I am not a lawyer and this is not advice.
 
These things don't work.

Yes they do.

but you give up your GC

Not if you take the necessary precautions. There are limits on how long you can do this, but it works for up to 15 years, trust me. (you are not going to become eligible for citizenship. if it is just about travelling back and forth with the ease of a green-card and seeing your retirement investments grow, it can be done) Employing yourself through a corporation you own is btw. the normal case in pretty much any small business organized as an LLC. Nothing fake, nothing illegal.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Setting up a fake company

A 'fake company' would indeed be illegal. A company with a legitimate business purpose and assets (e.g. one that owns and manages real-estate) as your employer is entirely legal. This is not about sponsoring yourself for a green-card through a corporation that you own/control (which would be illegal). Once you have a GC, you are free to work for whomever you care.
 
JoeF -

Do you see a problem with this scenario:

A guy from India wants to move permanently to India but wants to keep his options open so wants to check out India initially for 1 year. Clearly the intent is for the guy to move back to India and hence he iis supposed to loose his gc.

1)The guy however gets a 1 year contract with a computer company over there.
2) Gets a reentry permit
3) Keeps his property in the US
4) Files taxes in the US
5) Keeps his car in the US
6) Keeps all his money in the US
7) Keeps his driver license
8) Keeps in touch with friends and family in the US
9) Uses his US credit cards and maintains his FICO score

The guy comes back from a 1 year contract - clearly he is ineligible to come back to the US since his intention was to go back to India permanently. When questioned by INS officer the guy tells the officer he went to India for 1 yr.

The guy is really careful about his stay in India as well. Does not buy property, ships one of his cars to India but drives on US plates and declares himself as a tourist etc (I am not sure you can even do this but this is a hypothetical situation).

I think it will be exteremely hard to take away his GC because his actions show that he went to India only for 1 year(!). But deep down in his brain he had the intention to move permanently. The problem is how to get this information from deep down his brain.

Maybe if INS did interrogations like GESTAPO - the guy could be at risk because he would confess. But given the fact that the court will consider his actions as a way to determine his intent - he is pretty much safe. At least this is my conjecture.

This is not an advice and I am not a lawyer.
 
Maybe if INS did interrogations like GESTAPO -

Well they don't, but they might hand you over to military intelligence or the CIA and as we know now, torture is officially sanctioned policy over there.

But given the fact that the court will consider his actions as a way to determine his intent - he is pretty much safe. At least this is my conjecture.

There are plenty of people working for multinationals who work on and off in the US and at other locations around the globe. They do what you describe and don't have a problem maintaining their GC.
USCIS looks at actions to infer intent. As you correctly note, they have no way to look in to the depth of ones mind to determine whether there might be a thought buried somewhere that maybe at some point you might return home. They look at the actions you take, and if they fit into their general scheme, they leave you alone.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JoeF -

You say:
"That's the contradiction here. Does he want to move permanently or does he want to check things out for a year?"

Well this is an issue:

If sb moves permanently somewhere then sb almost never bothers to file for reentry, file taxes in the US, document the trip, keep ties to the US etc. Most people will be open to moving permanently but they want to first check things out.....

This is why probably there has not been a case where sb who had a valid reentry permit, had ties to the US got denied.

Think of it: if you wanted to move somewhere for good - would you bother with so many formalities of keeping the GC. I certainly wouldn't. But if I was moving abroad for a while and wanted to live in the US then I would do everything to document that the trip is temporary.
 
robwoj said:
.
This is why probably there has not been a case where sb who had a valid reentry permit, had ties to the US got denied.

Whatever JoeF is mentioning is about law. I don't think he talked about enforcement or lapse of enforcement. Keep in mind, enforcement of law does not define the the law itself. If today in a freeway nobody gets ticket while doing speeding that does not mean that it is legal to do speeding in that freeway.

It's possible that if someone has re-entry permit gets less scrutiny at POE, but that does not change the underlying law.


robwoj said:
.
Think of it: if you wanted to move somewhere for good - would you bother with so many formalities of keeping the GC. I certainly wouldn't. But if I was moving abroad for a while and wanted to live in the US then I would do everything to document that the trip is temporary.

Because, some people want have their cake and eat it too. They want to keep their green card NOT because they want to remain in USA as LPR, but because they don't want give up their hard-earned green card voluntarily (unless it is taken away focibly).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OK.

So tu summarize you both think that situtaions such as the following do occur in real life:

- A person moves abroad permanently
- The person files for reentry
- The person documents the trip as temporary e.g: taking care of sick relative (who is really sick) or 1 yr contract abroad (which is also a real 1 yr contract abroad).
- Makes sure to follow all precautions and follow everything what was said on the application for reentry. Notice that actions are contrary to intentions.
- Keeps ties to the US. Keeps car, furniture, house in the US and all other property in the US
- Maintains drivers license in the US
- Keeps all savings in the US
- Makes frequent calls to the US and keeps in touch with relatives, friends.
- Gets paid in the US
- Uses US credit cards extensively and pays bills in the US
- Pays taxes in the US

I seriously doubt that the person doing all of this could have intentions to stay abroad permanently.

Just as JoeF doubts that a person will have no intentions to work for employer indefinitely and yet work for the employer for 1-2 years.

Ofcourse it all could happen that intentions are contrary to actions and this occurs in psychology.

But I think INS is not able to somehow read sb mind and they have to go by actions of a given individual.

As I said if INS used GESTAPO interrogation techniques then they would be able to tell better what are the intentions of people. I doubt that this will happen over the next 10 years.

But even if they employed GESTAPO techniques - ho would they tell that for 1 minute you had intention to move abroad but for 360 days you had intentions to stay in the US? According to the law even if you change your intention for 30 seconds and then you change it back you loose the GC. How would you be able to tell apart intentions from a random thought or doubt?

What if you change your intentions during sleep but when you wake up you change it back? Can INS pursue such cases? How will they know your state of mind during sleep? Are you responsible for your state of mind during sleep? Also what if you forget what your intentions were during sleep?

I think we should all get together to further explore intentions and how human brain works.
 
What should a person do if the following occurs:

SCENARIO #1

1) Goes for a 1 year temporary trip abroad.
2) During the temporary trip abroad the intentions change for 30 seconds total - the person INTENDS to never come back to the US for 30 seconds. After 30 seconds are up the person decides that the person will come back to the US for good.

What does the person do with those 30 seconds?

What if the 30 seconds were really 35 seconds?

SCENARIO #2

1) Person goes for 1 yr temp assignment abroad
2) During sleep between 3A.M. and 4 A.M. the person changes intentions and wants to stay permanently abroad. Wakes up at 4 A.M and decides that the person wants to live in the US as planned.

What if the person forgets about this change of intentions during sleep but remembers the change 10 years later?

SCENARIO #3

1) The person goes for 1 yr temp assigment
2) During the assignment a thought passes thru the brain and the person thinks that maybe they will stay abroad for good. The resolution is almost there but not quite.

How does the person test the thoughts?

How often should a person test thoughts?

SCENARIO #4

1) The person goes for 1 yr assignment abroad
2) On the surface the intention is to stay abroad permanently. But deep down the intention is to go back and live in the US.

Which intention should the INS officer use if there are conflicting intentions? How should the person measure the progress and how often should the person write down what is tingling in the brain?

SCENARIO #5
1) The person goes for 1 yr assignment abroad
2) The person does not know the intentions. The person does not think at all because of a small brain damage.

How does a person measure intentions if there is some small brain damage?

How does psychology relate to all of this?
 
Also - since going on a temp assignment with reentry permit and ties to the US is no proof of ones intentions to remain in the US =>

Why not deport 100% of people who come back to the US on a valid reentry permit. It is up to them to prove that things were temporary and nobody can prove this - hence they should all be deported. After all actions are not a proof of ones intentions....

Let's zero in all of this ASAP.
 
robwoj said:
I do not understand why are people so paranoid about going abroad for an extended time.

To Robwoj, Hadron and all other people except the JoeF and Pralay:

Nothing in the law said that "going abroad for good" is a bad faith and will subject you to give up GC.

read the following law review by the most authoritive experts of US and you can see that the two idiots have fabricated many " novel theories" to poison other people.

It is really useless to argue with them if they keep rejecting to learn something and clean their brain.

------------------------------

"[2]-- Reentry Permits

[a]-- In General

Since 1924 the immigration laws have provided for the issuance of reentry permits to lawful alien residents of the United States who wished to make temporary visits to foreign countries. The reentry permit is one of the acceptable documents that may be presented by aliens seeking to enter the United States. The use and need for reentry permits has been diminished by procedures which accredit a permanent resident card (Form 551) as an acceptable entry document for alien residents returning from temporary absence abroad not exceeding one year.15

At one time an alien who intended to travel to specified Iron Curtain countries had to apply for a reentry permit, which could be used for this purpose only if written permission was obtained from the Secretary of State. However, these requirements were eliminated in 1977 and there currently are no restrictions on the use of I-151 or I-551 or a reentry permit in traveling to Iron Curtain countries.

A refugee travel document issued to a lawful permanent resident is regarded as a reentry permit.16 During the Iranian hostage crisis, a regulation was adopted invalidating a reentry permit presented by an alien who, during his temporary absence abroad, traveled to, in, or through Iran, unless such travel was approved by the Department of State.17 These restrictions were rescinded in 1981.18

Like the American passport, the reentry permit does not infallibly assure entry into the United States. At most, it is prima facie evidence of the bearer's lawful status.19 The reentry permit is equivalent to a visa and thus relieves its rightful holder from other documentary requirements.20 And it shows that he is returning from a temporary visit abroad.21 But the statue emphasizes that the reentry permit has no other effect under the immigration laws.22

The underlying premise of a reentry permit is that the applicant is lawfully in the United States and is entitled to return,23 and that he is departing temporarily.24 Consequently, an alien unlawfully in the United States who wrongfully obtains a reentry permit gains nothing from his wrong. He is excludable upon his return and if he eludes detection he subsequently can be expelled.25 And even if the reentry permit was issued in error, without any fraud, it confers no right to reenter.26 But without any showing of fraud or mistake, an attempt to disregard the reentry permit may be considered arbitrary and capricious.27

Moreover, residents who voluntarily leave the United States including those with reentry permit, are subject to the reentry doctrine and upon their return may have to establish admissibility to the United States in the same manner as new entrants. They may be barred for any exclusionary ground prescribed by the immigration laws, e.g., for certain crimes or other misconduct prior to such entry.28 And if he had an unrelinquished domicile in the United States of seven consecutive years the ground for his inadmissibility may be waived. In addition, a waiver can be awarded to a returning lawful resident for any documentary defect or omission.

-- Eligibility

The basic prerequisite of the reentry permit is that the applicant prove that he has been lawfully admitted to the United States for permanent residence.29 It must appear that he has not abandoned his residence in the United States.30 He must establish also that his application is made in good faith in connection with a temporary visit abroad.31 And his application will be granted only if the Attorney General finds that his proposed departure would not be contrary to the interests of the United States.32 The regulations also provide, for the purpose of preventing abuse resulting from the possession of multiple documents, that the holder of a refugee travel document cannot obtain a reentry permit unless he surrenders the refugee travel document.33 They also provide that a reentry permit will not be issued, with specified exceptions, to a person who intends to travel in, to, or through Libya.34 Moreover, the INA is explicit in declaring that the issuance or extension of a reentry permit is within the discretion of the Attorney General.35

[c]-- Procedure
..............."

(1-10 Immigration Law and Procedure § 10.05 )
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JoeF -

No - I am actually serious.

I heard of a friend from Tajikistan. Basically the issue with him is that he had a brain concussion.

He is going abroad to Tajikistan for 1 year with a valid reentry permit. He has all his belongings in the US.

He will work for 1 yr on uncle's farm. His uncle's farm produces coffins which are a very good business nowadays and demand is strong. So it is an opportunity. The farm gave him a 1 year contract.

But because the brain concussion caused him some damage - it is not clear he can steer his intentions in a stable manner - they tend to fluctuate. Do you think he is safe to return to the US after 1 yr?

After reading your posts I would want to tell him that maybe it is not safe to go because they might try to sniff what is going on in his brain after he gets back.

Please advise ASAP.
 
robwoj said:
After reading your posts I would want to tell him that maybe it is not safe to go because they might try to sniff what is going on in his brain after he gets back.

I would suggest wrapping his head in tinfoil for the year, and especially at the POE. I hear it prevents the CIA from reading your brain.
 
JoeF said:
...... If you want to move abroad for good, you can of course do so, but you give up your GC.........

no one denis that departure should be in temporary nature; but if going one step further, is not the requirement from the law.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
wurzbach said:
To Robwoj, Hadron and all other people except the two real idiots(JoeF and Pralay):

Nothing in the law said that "going abroad for good" is a bad faith and will subject you to give up GC. It is so rediculous and another example of try by the two real idiots to mislead innocent people!

You are delusional. In the mission of proving me or JoeF wrong, you are ready to make any desparate comment, no matter how dangerious it is. No, "going abroad for good" does not mean bad faith, but if it is said in front of a POE officer or any other immigration officer, the officer has a reason to suspect that the abroad stay was not temporary (and that may lead to farther scrutiny). It's common sense. It does not require months of so-called "research" in Lexis-nexis. If I say "I am moving to Paris for good" does it mean that I am going to Paris for a week of vacation? No matter how many time you call us "idiots" that does not make your statements any sensible.

In the very document you posted (about REP) there two key statements:

"Since 1924 the immigration laws have provided for the issuance of reentry permits to lawful alien residents of the United States who wished to make temporary visits to foreign countries."

"It must appear that he has not abandoned his residence in the United States."

It seems you have very little understanding of the very document you posted.
 
wurzbach said:
no one denis that departure should be in temporary nature; but if going one step further, is not the requirement from the law.

What is the requirement? Do you any idea about it? You are arguing without knowing the law. The requirement says that the person has to live in USA and any foreign visit has to be temporary in nature. Taking foreign job without any clear end-date or living in foreign land does not indicate that the visit is temporary.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Here's my situation

Accepted offer from US parent organization to go back and work for Indian subsidiary. REP is approved. Applied for N470 stating that employment in Indian subsidiary will be for the foreseeable future. Will be coming back for periodic business visits and will have a drivers license, bank account, address etc (not filing an AR-11 since relocating out of the country).

At this point, not sure of whether India is forever. It is a very distinct possibility that I never return, but no one can predict the future. The truth is that we want to be with family and take advantage of our network in bringing up our kids and use all the help we can get rather than tough it out on our own (those with kids may understand). But, if we feel like the pros of being here outweighs this, we may come back. So an argument could be made both ways, yes, we are not sure if we want to maintain residence, but at the same time, we cannot definitely state that we want to abandon our PR status (typical dilemma).

From everything I am reading in this thread,if I get questioned at a POE on one of my visits, what am I supposed to do? What does anyone with a REP and periodic visits do? What happens at the POE if the DHS officer is not convined of your intent? Do they revoke your GC and deport you?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top