Trips Abroad the reality? (Don't u think)..?

[teddybear]

for AbandonedGreenCard

hey, citizenship is a very personal experience.

does your friend who got the naturalization so fast and through an unorthodox slipping through the "dates required" have any attachment to america other than using the us passport?

those who abuse the system are the ones to blame for IO's being extra ball-busting vigilant with folks who followed all the immigration rules.

 

[abandonedGreenC]

Teddy,

I am talking about an experience. My friend went through the USCIS SYSTEM and got approved. What do you think Mr. System?

 

[koolvik7]

Teddy,

I am talking about an experience. My friend went through the USCIS SYSTEM and got approved. What do you think Mr. System?

Yeah I saw that in your signature that you are applying too. When would you be applying? I am sure you will be setting up a textbook example as this forum will track your N-400 journey. Your friend is a lucky guy for sure (at least in Citizenship experience).

Nothing against you or your friend, but I was thinking about the irony here. On one hand, there have been several applicants on this forum who have been in US for a long time, doing their due deligence but have been stuck in the USCIS N-400 queue (Name Check and other black holes). On the other hand.... others have a ball of a time....

 

[PeterPany]

JAXGUY,
PETERPANY,


I have a very interesting story to tell. My friend left the U.S 1998, worked one year only in the U.S. In 2003, he came back and even applied for the citizenship when he was overseas. After he recieved a notice to appear to the support center to have his fingerprint done. He arrived via fligh from Europe and it took only for him 2 minutes to pass the immigration inspection. He went to the support center and finished the fingerprint. He left back to his country. He came back for the interview and he told me the interview was so easy and never got a complicated question from the IO. At the end he passed the civic test, and english test. In the same day the IO told him his application has been approved and he will get the oath cermony soon. He perefered to wait instead of traveling outside the country and come back for oath cermony. He was so lucky and the got the oath cermony very sooner. At the end, he got the his naturalization certificate and in the same day went to the postal service and applied for a U.S passport. About 10 days later, got his passport and left the country for good.

What do you think peter, and Jax?

Personally, i don't believe the USCIS has the capabilities to know when you left the country from their system. An example, When you check in for your departure, DON'T GIVE THE I-94, OR GREEN CARD TO an Airline Agent.

After my first Re-entry permit expired. I have applied for a second Re-entry permit while i was outside the country and i got approved. Now i have the second Rentry permit.

________________________________________________________________
I have left the U.S since 2003 and i am coming back soon to apply for N-400

Surely this is a question of the planets lining up for him. Depends on the IO on the day and the state that he filed in (their general practice). There have been posts of people who have had their passports and taxes carefully checked - not sure your friend would have made it - if that was the case.

The airlines (to europe in anycase) require the GC to be presented before travel - so you don't have an option to hide it (you will need it to come back - so you can't exactly say you left it at home).

Did your friend "guess" some of the arrival and departure dates - when he filled in the n400?

.

 

[PeterPany]

Well, you can laugh and giggle all you want, but that's my personal experience believe it or not.

When you leave US, Airlines swipe the green card, that logs your Exit date. On Arrival to US, your passport gets stamped, creating Arrival record.

I did see DHS computer screen at the airport one time, listing all my travel info in chronological order. And guess who IO's work for !!!!!! D H S.....

Okay, I am *not* sure if the card is swiped on exit, but pretty sure the numbers are entered into the system (again this could be to track and stop known terrorists as opposed to collect info for n400 interviews or PRs). If you check in with some airlines on-line (e.g. www.ba.com) I am pretty sure that they ask you for alien numbers - so this information is entered by the staff at the check-in counter if you don't do it on-line.

However, question is that this information does not get pulled up when you enter back into the USA. There are no instances of someone saying "I was out for 16 days" and then an officer saying "actullay it was 17.5 according to my computer" at the port of entry. You are asked as they do not know, unless they have to dig the information (which I am sure they can find if they wanted to).

We are looking for experience of people, who have had their departure/arrival dates corrected or confirmed by an IO checking a system (not a passport) at port of entry or in n400 internview. Not sure many people can find genuine examples?



.

 

[jaxguy1]

JAXGUY,
PETERPANY,


I have a very interesting story to tell. My friend left the U.S 1998, worked one year only in the U.S. In 2003, he came back and even applied for the citizenship when he was overseas. After he recieved a notice to appear to the support center to have his fingerprint done. He arrived via fligh from Europe and it took only for him 2 minutes to pass the immigration inspection. He went to the support center and finished the fingerprint. He left back to his country. He came back for the interview and he told me the interview was so easy and never got a complicated question from the IO. At the end he passed the civic test, and english test. In the same day the IO told him his application has been approved and he will get the oath cermony soon. He perefered to wait instead of traveling outside the country and come back for oath cermony. He was so lucky and the got the oath cermony very sooner. At the end, he got the his naturalization certificate and in the same day went to the postal service and applied for a U.S passport. About 10 days later, got his passport and left the country for good.

What do you think peter, and Jax?

Personally, i don't believe the USCIS has the capabilities to know when you left the country from their system. An example, When you check in for your departure, DON'T GIVE THE I-94, OR GREEN CARD TO an Airline Agent.

After my first Re-entry permit expired. I have applied for a second Re-entry permit while i was outside the country and i got approved. Now i have the second Rentry permit.

________________________________________________________________
I have left the U.S since 2003 and i am coming back soon to apply for N-400

All I have to say, this person is very lucky and the main reason why IOs are trying to find discrepencies in the paper work. People like him go free and someone who is abiding all the laws and following rule might get caught for a little mistake. Your friend and others like him should be ashamed that their actions create problems for others.

 

[equate]

JAXGUY,
PETERPANY,


I have a very interesting story to tell. My friend left the U.S 1998, worked one year only in the U.S. In 2003, he came back and even applied for the citizenship when he was overseas. After he recieved a notice to appear to the support center to have his fingerprint done. He arrived via fligh from Europe and it took only for him 2 minutes to pass the immigration inspection. He went to the support center and finished the fingerprint. He left back to his country. He came back for the interview and he told me the interview was so easy and never got a complicated question from the IO. At the end he passed the civic test, and english test. In the same day the IO told him his application has been approved and he will get the oath cermony soon. He perefered to wait instead of traveling outside the country and come back for oath cermony. He was so lucky and the got the oath cermony very sooner. At the end, he got the his naturalization certificate and in the same day went to the postal service and applied for a U.S passport. About 10 days later, got his passport and left the country for good.

What do you think peter, and Jax?

Personally, i don't believe the USCIS has the capabilities to know when you left the country from their system. An example, When you check in for your departure, DON'T GIVE THE I-94, OR GREEN CARD TO an Airline Agent.

After my first Re-entry permit expired. I have applied for a second Re-entry permit while i was outside the country and i got approved. Now i have the second Rentry permit.

________________________________________________________________
I have left the U.S since 2003 and i am coming back soon to apply for N-400

Your friends' experience is irrelevant to the current situation. He left the country in 1998. That is long before the 9/11 incident. The departure record was rarely collected back then. The security background checks has gone through many revisions and upgrading in recent years. What has passed as security checks back in 2003 is completely different from what it is now. If he applied now, it is very possible there would have been a different outcome.

 

[yummyk]

Okay, I am *not* sure if the card is swiped on exit, but pretty sure the numbers are entered into the system (again this could be to track and stop known terrorists as opposed to collect info for n400 interviews or PRs). If you check in with some airlines on-line (e.g. www.ba.com) I am pretty sure that they ask you for alien numbers - so this information is entered by the staff at the check-in counter if you don't do it on-line.

However, question is that this information does not get pulled up when you enter back into the USA. There are no instances of someone saying "I was out for 16 days" and then an officer saying "actullay it was 17.5 according to my computer" at the port of entry. You are asked as they do not know, unless they have to dig the information (which I am sure they can find if they wanted to).

We are looking for experience of people, who have had their departure/arrival dates corrected or confirmed by an IO checking a system (not a passport) at port of entry or in n400 internview. Not sure many people can find genuine examples?



.

There was a post a few weeks back by somebody who actually requested and received his information (in/out electronic infomation) from Customs and Border Protection through a Freedom of Information request. According to this individual, the USCIS Field Office does not have access to the CBP records database, as this individual specifically asked the Field Office for his records and was referred to CBP. He did end up obtaining his records. Not sure if all Field Offices work this way or if they are in the process of sytems upgrades / integration that will allow the Field Offices access to this database. If they do then, at the very least, CBP would have a record of all entries into the US where your GC was swiped. (Incidentally, in my own experiences with crossing at land border crossings from Mexico, they do not always swipe the GC, meaning that in some cases there is NO record of departure from or arrival to the US).

Hope this information helps. Thanks for all the good posts. If anything, it has made me more cautious about how to report all of my trips, most of which were less than 24 hours in duration.

 

[PeterPany]

There was a post a few weeks back by somebody who actually requested and received his information (in/out electronic infomation) from Customs and Border Protection through a Freedom of Information request. According to this individual, the USCIS Field Office does not have access to the CBP records database, as this individual specifically asked the Field Office for his records and was referred to CBP. He did end up obtaining his records. Not sure if all Field Offices work this way or if they are in the process of sytems upgrades / integration that will allow the Field Offices access to this database. If they do then, at the very least, CBP would have a record of all entries into the US where your GC was swiped. (Incidentally, in my own experiences with crossing at land border crossings from Mexico, they do not always swipe the GC, meaning that in some cases there is NO record of departure from or arrival to the US).

Hope this information helps. Thanks for all the good posts. If anything, it has made me more cautious about how to report all of my trips, most of which were less than 24 hours in duration.

Thanks for the post as well. This makes sense. I would think that the CBP could get your records if needed (counter terrorism reasons). But my gut is that the field offices do not have access to the information - currently. This would be reflective of the posts in this forum - none of which really speak to anyone being confronted with evidence of departure/arrivals other then what is stamped in the passport.

Welcome any information that people have on systems available in field office, does anyone know is this info is available in any offices - any experiences with San Fran or South bay (or anywhere else for that reason)?

 

[equate]

According to this individual, the USCIS Field Office does not have access to the CBP records database, as this individual specifically asked the Field Office for his records and was referred to CBP.

We all know the background security check is done by the service centers, not field offices. Any information the field offices get is relayed by the service centers. And obviously, the service centers will obtain the extra information only for the flagged cases.

Don't you know by now the service centers schedule interviews only after the security check is complete? If the service centers do not send the departure records to field offices, more likely than not, they wouldn't have it.

 

[PeterPany]

We all know the background security check is done by the service centers, not field offices. Any information the field offices get is relayed by the service centers. And obviously, the service centers will obtain the extra information only for the flagged cases.

Don't you know by now the service centers schedule interviews only after the security check is complete? If the service centers do not send the departure records to field offices, more likely than not, they wouldn't have it.

okay. Well, I am not sure what kinds of checks occur for "security" - I would assume they are different to continuous residency checks (more related to crimnal record, I assume?)

Does this mean that in most cases, if security is cleared - the departure records are probably not sent to the field offices?

 

[Flydog]

When you enter the US from Canada or Mexico in a car, your license plate is scanned (or manually entered). If the CBP officer swipes a passport or a GC from the car, then the license and documents get related.

This has been happening since the time I was TN (way back at the dawn of Canada-US Free trade)

I believe Canada does pretty much the same thing now. I would not be surprised if Canada and the US share this information (since it is "mutually beneficial").

When I used to travel back and forth to Canada a lot (pre-GC), I was often surprised by the questions that immigration officers would ask. I got the impression that they knew everything about me and everything I did.

At both my wife's GC interview and he N-400 interview, questions about things that happened to her and to her father (40 years ago) came up.

We went into the N-400 process with a completely paranoid point of view - that the USCIS basically had "big brother" knowledge of our entire histories. We were scrupulously honest and accurate (not always precise, but always accurate).

I'd recommend that attitude to anyone submitting an N-400 (yes, this doesn't answer the question, but...)

 

[equate]

okay. Well, I am not sure what kinds of checks occur for "security" - I would assume they are different to continuous residency checks (more related to crimnal record, I assume?)

Does this mean that in most cases, if security is cleared - the departure records are probably not sent to the field offices?

Incorrect. It just means the security checks are completed. All the false hits are identified, and the genuine matches are verified, and finally, all matching records are submmited to the service centers, which then would be relayed to the field office for interviews. Regardless of the records against you during the security checks, there will always be interviews. We even heard of cases of people who got arrested at the interviews after interviewing officers learned that there is a arrest warrant out for the applicants.

The background checks involves 3 steps. The first is Interagency Border Inspection System. This is done by the USCIS and include all border related issues (arrival-daparture records, deportation records, etc). If any residence issues are to be checked, it would happen during this step. The second step is the fingerprint check, and the third is now the infamous name check. The second and third steps are done by FBI and includes civil courts, criminal, and traffic-related records.

 

[PeterPany]

Incorrect. It just means the security checks are completed. All the false hits are identified, and the genuine matches are verified, and finally, all matching records are submmited to the service centers, which then would be relayed to the field office for interviews. Regardless of the records against you during the security checks, there will always be interviews. We even heard of cases of people who got arrested at the interviews after interviewing officers learned that there is a arrest warrant out for the applicants.

The background checks involves 3 steps. The first is Interagency Border Inspection System. This is done by the USCIS and include all border related issues (arrival-daparture records, deportation records, etc). If any residence issues are to be checked, it would happen during this step. The second step is the fingerprint check, and the third is now the infamous name check. The second and third steps are done by FBI and includes civil courts, criminal, and traffic-related records.

Well.. that is enough to make anybody feel paranoid.

However, I wish to put this into context...

The benefits of this forum (like utube.com) is the *user generated* content. We all can have theories, but we look for the patterns of behaviour of the authorities, based on the experiences of the many people on the site - its looking through the volumes of experiences - which provides the truth.

There have not been many postings of people being denied n400 because they missed out a minor traffic related issue during the n400 interview.

There have not been postings of people being confronted with arrival and departure information whilst interviewed, to confirm or contradict what was stated on their n400 (other then passport stamps which is well documented here).

If the checks were as through as is suggested as above, I would assume there would be more cases and experiences form people of this happening? the reality has to be that the arrival/departures are not throughly checked - and this is what I am hearing most lawyers tend to say.


.

 

[equate]

What I presented right above your post is not a theory. That is how the process is done. Period.

Maybe not in the past, but currently, it is.

 

[paul sid]

Not Disputing that - its sounds very plausible.

Clearly if there is a warrant for your arrest, this procedure is going to get you.

However, failing any larger issues being flagged, it would appear that discrepencies with dates (departures in this case, as arrivals are usually stamped on passport if via airport) are not cause enough to flag too field offices, nor are minor traffic violations. Else there would be a lot more experiences of people being confronted with this information.

 

[equate]

Minor traffic tickets wouldn't be in FBI's database. When it comes to traffic related issues, they mainly compile DWI convictions and major traffic violations.

Most people wouldn't be confronted with arrival and departure information simply because
1. Such cases would be rare
2. Most people do not have residency issues
3. Most people do not lie on the dates
4. Those who do have residency issues will be more meticular with the dates
5. Interagency Border Inspection System is relatively new. Thus, we do not know how the older cases were affected.
6. Those who lied wouldn't be volunteering to post in public forums. Not exactly something to be proud of.
Of course, the points 1-6 are speculations.

 

[PeterPany]

Minor traffic tickets wouldn't be in FBI's database. When it comes to traffic related issues, they mainly compile DWI convictions and major traffic violations.

Most people wouldn't be confronted with arrival and departure information simply because
1. Such cases would be rare
2. Most people do not have residency issues
3. Most people do not lie on the dates
4. Those who do have residency issues will be more meticular with the dates
5. Interagency Border Inspection System is relatively new. Thus, we do not know how the older cases were affected.
6. Those who lied wouldn't be volunteering to post in public forums. Not exactly something to be proud of.
Of course, the points 1-6 are speculations.

These are good points. However I just don't buy it.

There are not enough examples of anybody being caught out giving incorrect departure dates (unless PP stamps contradict). If this information was available at the field offices - there would be far more experiences of skirmishes - as people would get them wrong accidently (remembering all those trips is tough). Maybe a few examples that was as a result of further investigation on some other issue. Also only in Oct 2005 did a lot of these systems come into place - data prior to that is practically non existent. Legal violations are probably checked, but if the citation is minor, then I do not think its an issue.

I would also add that thousands of people enter via the airlines with GCs - and there is a distinct lack of cases where people have said - I was out for 4 weeks to an IO - and an officer has contradicted them. The authorities would only have the need to investigate this information for serious matters.

Also, immigration do not have the right to decline re-entrance to the USA if you have been out less then 6 months, are a GC and maintain your intent to remain permanently within the USA (if you tell them you are visitng the USA only - then you are in trouble). 6 months plus, and you have the rebuttlable presumption (so u have a chance), after a year of being out - the stakes are a lot higher.

 

[equate]

If you are so certain, why are you bothering here?

Obviously, you are planning to lie to the officers and just wants assurances from others that it is safe to do so. Personally I do not think there are such assurances. You are endangering not only your citizenship but also green card as well. Getting caught lying subjects you to possible life time ban from entering U.S ever again. They don't even have to catch you at the interviews. Passing the interview does not end your risk. The discrepancy is forever in your record, and USCIS just need to discover it once. It could happpen when you sponsor someone for green card, or when FBI wants to look at your travel records for security reason, or when you travel too frequently to certain countries which triggers automatic alert, or when you get arrested which sometimes triggers citizenship review, etc.

I really don't see the risk is worth it. If you fail the citizenship interview because of residence issues, you can re-apply in the future without prejudice, but if you fail on the ground of lying, you are screwed forever. Hey, but it's YOUR risk and YOUR green card... YOU'll decide what you want to do.
__________________

 

[PeterPany]

If you are so certain, why are you bothering here?

Obviously, you are planning to lie to the officers and just wants assurances from others that it is safe to do so. Personally I do not think there are such assurances. You are endangering not only your citizenship but also green card as well. Getting caught lying subjects you to possible life time ban from entering U.S ever again. They don't even have to catch you at the interviews. Passing the interview does not end your risk. The discrepancy is forever in your record, and USCIS just need to discover it once. It could happpen when you sponsor someone for green card, or when FBI wants to look at your travel records for security reason, or when you travel too frequently to certain countries which triggers automatic alert, or when you get arrested which sometimes triggers citizenship review, etc.

I really don't see the risk is worth it. If you fail the citizenship interview because of residence issues, you can re-apply in the future without prejudice, but if you fail on the ground of lying, you are screwed forever. Hey, but it's YOUR risk and YOUR green card... YOU'll decide what you want to do.
__________________

Well that is true. I personally have come to the conclusion that n400 interviews are generally not that much of an issue. As long as you have not spent 6 months out or longer & as long as the intent is to be a PR - honesty is the best policy and will win the day, if not - through the honest approach you get the chance to fight another day.

Maybe this is for another thread, however some of the attorneys I have spoken too have not made a conclusion if the ''look back rule'' 5 yr requirment (with 2.5 yrs in the US)...

1. begins the date of gaining the card
2. is from the n400 application date backwards
3. or is from the date of the interview backwards

By travelling heavily in the later years of your application - the early years of residence will be eaten away if the IO takes the 3. approach. (If you get what I mean?)