TN Visa: Company lawyer is suggesting to apply as an Engineer but I only have a CS minor

[pfmarin23]

You are misleading others into thinking they can get an engineering job without a related degree, simply by working in Canada in software.
Be careful next time you renew. The interpretation may disfavour you that time.

Hi,

I am desperately seeking for advice.

I am being hired to work in the US. I am a Mexican citizen. My TN letter was rejected during interview, because my employer was asking for an Advanced Qualitiy Engineer (this is the job title) under NAFTA and my education background is a Bachelor’s Industrial Design.

I have been working on the automotive industry for more than 5 years and I can prove by former employer records and certificates (both internal job ones and official)

I have been asked to the re submit the letter through e-mail stating why they need an industrial design to fill the position.

My company has told me to resubmit as needed.

I have been breaking my head about the best way to approach this and avoid mis-leading the people that will review:
1. Should the NAFTA category be industrial designer and leave out the job title of the letter?

2.Should I leave the previous job title stating it is an internal designation and apply for industrial design category?

3. I noticed that my occupation under TN category could fall into Product Development Engineer, which first result in the O*Net website directs to Commercial and Industrial Designer.
Could I expand the interna job title to Advanced Quality and Product Development Engineer and apply for Product Development Engineer NAFTA category in hopes they find it matches industrial design related occupancies?

Not sure what to do at this point. thanks for taking the time to read this! Any help would be highly appreciated!!!!

 

[nelsona]

You should really ask this in your own thread. You only fit the Industrial design category, and are NOT an engineer (sound familiar) so were correctly denied. Your experience is not a qualification for the TN categories you are seeking, so don't even present these.
Try to avoid having job title in letter, refer only to the TN category you are requesting, and the job description. Remove all references to engineering. There is no product development category

 

[pfmarin23]

You should really ask this in your own thread. You only fit the Industrial design category, and are NOT an engineer (sound familiar) so were correctly denied. Your experience is not a qualification for the TN categories you are seeking, so don't even present these.
Try to avoid having job title in letter, refer only to the TN category you are requesting, and the job description. Remove all references to engineering. There is no product development category

Thanks a lot!
Final question: So no use in presenting certificates and or resume? Only supporting letter then.

 

[nelsona]

Correct. Experience only counts -- and only for certain categories -- if you do not have a degree, but have a two-year post-secondary certificate and three years experience. Or if you are going for management consultant with 5 years experience.

 

[pfmarin23]

Correct. Experience only counts -- and only for certain categories -- if you do not have a degree, but have a two-year post-secondary certificate and three years experience. Or if you are going for management consultant with 5 years experience.

Thanks a lot for your response. I will post a thread once I hear back from the consulate and in the case my experience will help someone else as well, hopefully good news!

 

[deropolo]

Oh I figured I would give them an opportunity to call me if they like but happy to share publicly as well.

I went to peace bridge, applied under the engineer category. Important factors were having a minor in computer science with 10+ CS courses as well as prior experience in software engineering/software development, which should be supported by verification of employment letters.

+1, was denied as a Computer Systems Analyst last week, followed the same steps and received my TN as an Engineer this morning from Peace Bridge. Computer Science degree. Will update this post later with a link to my other thread explaining my situation more, with some additional information as well.

 

[acerbits]

CS is not engineering, even if you had a degree in CS.

All non-engineers who apply under engineering are denied.

I came across your comments on the forum about 'CS is not engineering' and am wondering what exactly is your reasoning for claiming this? This is not a black and white discussion at all and the argument that an applicant presents to the CBP is very significant in the outcome of an application.

Are you giving this advice on the basis of assuming that Software Engineering is not a valid discipline of Engineering and therefore does not qualify under TN, or are you claiming that a CS degree is not valid credential for a Software Engineering job? because the later is 100% false and the former is also invalidated based on the INS memorandum clarifications.

The difference between a Computer Engineering and a Computer Science Degree is that CE is split between hardware and theory, a CS degree focuses purely on theory. This is almost indistinguishable for the majority of Software Engineering roles because unless you are specializing in firmware or device driver development, none of the jobs requires understanding of hardware operation and design/manufacturing. It's simply not part of the job.

Furthermore, many schools in the US have Computer Science as a discipline inside the Faculty of Engineering.

Example 1: UCSD Jacobs School of Engineering has both Computer Engineering and Computer Science as distinct majors offered, the only difference between the two is that CE requires intro physics, chemistry, and hardware courses and less CS theory requirements. CS drops all the physics, chem, hardware requirements while upping the CS theory requirements.

Example 2: UIUC Grainger college of Engineering also has Computer Science as a degree option.

Both schools are top ranked globally as well as nationally within the US, and the CS curriculum is nearly identical to peer institutions where CS departments are situated in the faculty of Science. So I don't see why you are claiming concretely that CS is not Engineering. We are not living in the 70s and 80s when Software was at it's infancy, it's a well developed discipline that is an accepted discipline within academia and industry.

I think the best advice to TN applicants who wish to work as a software engineer is to apply under the Engineer category and show the memorandums that specify that Software Engineering is an accepted discipline within Engineering and Computer Science is sufficiently related to the job that it qualifies the applicant for the visa.

One of the memorandums states that the border agent needs to exercise judgement on related degrees since under NAFTA, the degree discipline itself is not specified. This puts the onus on the applicant to present a convincing case that they hold credentials that is typical of the profession. And transcripts that show a comparable core curriculum should demonstrate that. My position is that arguing the contents of your degree is more convincing than trying to justify semantics about the title of the degree.

 

[nelsona]

1. The mere length of your post shows that the link between CS (not Software engineering) and engineering is tenuous. One has lots of 'splaining' to do at border.
2. Simply because one has a non-engineering degree and has worked many years in Canada in a job that has engineering links, does not automatically qualify one to get a TN in the engineering category in US.
3. a degree related to a certain discipline is still not the degree in that discipline.

We have already agreed that my broad statement was over-reaching. let's not make over-reaching comments in the other direction, ie. that CS is engineering: it isn't., as your post clearly explained.

 

[acerbits]

1. The mere length of your post shows that the link between CS (not Software engineering) and engineering is tenuous. One has lots of 'splaining' to do at border.
2. Simply because one has a non-engineering degree and has worked many years in Canada in a job that has engineering links, does not automatically qualify one to get a TN in the engineering category in US.
3. a degree related to a certain discipline is still not the degree in that discipline.

We have already agreed that my broad statement was over-reaching. let's not make over-reaching comments in the other direction, ie. that CS is engineering: it isn't., as your post clearly explained.

but here's the thing.
1: Software Engineering is not traditional engineering. a degree that specifically says software engineering does not make a degree holder any more of a software engineer than someone with a computer science degree, this is a fact. there is absolutely nothing inside a software engineering program that is superior training for the job than a computer science degree. Having to explain the distinction is because of ignorance of those who are not familiar with the education programs rather than distinction in the degree themselves.
2. I'm not claiming experience has anything to do with the qualification.
3. The fact that many CS programs sit inside the faculty of Engineering suggests that this isn't clear cut, and it's my point. So if you claim that CS isn't engineering at all, then a CS grad from UCSD is not an engineer, even though they graduated from the school of engineering. Also the fact that the TN classification itself does not require a specific degree at all should imply that a sufficiently related degree qualifies.

The conclusion I'm making isn't in the opposite direction that CS is Engineering but rather in the middle. This is a grey area. CS is Engineering, as much as it is not Engineering. Another specialization in the Faculty of Engineering is called Engineering Physics. It's also non traditional, it's not really a distinct discipline but rather a hodge podge of basically electrical eng and theoretical/applied physics. If it is a grey area, some people will argue in one way, some will in another, neither is 100% correct, neither is 100% wrong, so the applicant has the right and should argue in the direction that supports them.

 

[nelsona]

Agreed. And each time a candidate -- even one who has a TN -- goes to get TN renewal under the engineering category without an engineering degree they are at the mercy of the officer making an equally correct determination that CS is not engineering. Which was my point at the beginning when I said the candidate was "lucky" Next time might not be so.

I would not put too much weight on the "related degree" route to get a TN. It takes a lot of footwork to relate a degree which is not in the classification that one is applying for, and it simply doesn't happen that often. Again, in this case there was good frtune, and shoudl not be relied upon.

The reference to experience refers to the MANY posts here that decry their rejection by claiming their experience makes them eligible. It almost never does for TN. One needs to look at the broader picture than what is addressed in this thread.